Don't ask, Don't tell

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about - there have always been gay men and women serving in our armed services (about 65,000 currently). All they are asking is to not be discharged/fired solely for being gay.

And it is not like we are trying something radical or untested - more than 25 countries currently allow openly gay people to serve and have for years - including most of our allies. (Canada, Great Britain, Israel, Australia, Germany, France, Denmark, Italy, Sweden, South Africa, New Zealand to name a few). The only members of NATO who don't allow it are Turkey and the USA. Russia allows it during wartime.

The reasons I have heard mentioned as to why this can't happen (morale, harassment, recruitment, retention, cohesion) have already been disproved by other countries allowing it, OUR forces participating in joint exercises with these countries, and polling of current personnel. Bear in mind that these are also the exact same reasons given over 50 years ago as to why we shouldn't integrate the military.

Not to mention that we waste billions of dollars training personnel who are either fired or choose not to reenlist because of the policy. And we spend millions investigating reports that someone might be gay. Not that they are harassing someone, not that they aren't doing their job, merely that they are gay.

So here's a news flash - our military has gay people - they are already showering, bunking, working, serving, and dying alongside their heterosexual counterparts - and letting them be honest about their sexuality w/o losing their job won't negatively change anything - but it will have many positive changes - financial, social, troop strength.

Now please tell me why (with some evidence/stats please) I am completely wrong and we cannot have openly gay men & women serving in our military...................instead of gay men and women hiding their sexuality.

And to head off any partisan squabbles, here is a link to a Republican group's web page discussing the issue in greater detail.

Issues: Gays in the Military

Cost of logistics, housing, benefits for partners & children, etc.. You can, it's just not something you snap your fingers at and it's done.

really swgb? do tell! wouldn't it be great if all americans could know the history of our own military?

Is housing an issue? I haven't seen the news or discussions on this. These guys and gals have lived and fought side by side forever. If a person admits to being homosexual then that makes him suddenly in need of alternate living arrangements? maybe so. I have no clue.

logistics and housing? would this really require a lot of change? why?

and benefits for partners? a separate issue.

Sure, thanks to our police the world mentality, we have bases all over the earth with housing and barracks in training camps. Are we going to stick the gay men in with straight men so they can sleep and shower together, ditto for gay women? (Maybe the gay men should sleep in the womens quarters and vice versa? That might save some money and time.) The logistics equal what we went through when women joined the military. It took a while to get the issues worked out and they weren't integrated fully for decades. Which isn't to say it can't be done, we just need a Gays Armed Service Integration Act from Congress and Obama (would he sign it? doubt it), and the military won't have a choice.

Then benefits are a whole different issue. Currently under federal law partners would not receive benefits. Changing that requires yet another act from Congress and Obama (would he sign it? doubt it.)

I think you would have to start with the benefits, and work your way backwards (no pun intended ). Start by getting people to accept gay couples. We have a long way to go, even California has a gay marriage ban in their Constitution now. Seems like we are going backwards sometimes.

This is nothing like when women joined the military. Women weren't already in the military, but shaving their heads, and strapping down their breasts. Many gay people are already serving and sharing housing. The idea that allowing them to do so openly will cause a huge logistics issue is as ignorant as don't ask don't tell.

Currently if someone is gay and has a partner they generally live in off base housing. If the partner serving in the military is sent overseas the partner who is not usually stays behind as they cannot live on base.

Once again the right has transposed a non-issue over something that straight people take for granted so that they can restrict others. In that I mean that the subtext is that people will abuse military housing or housing allowance by faking a relationship and that this is another good reason to continue to discriminate. A friend of mine, who is straight, came up with a scheme to marry an enlisted woman and they would then reap a better off base housing allowance. All went well for 2 whole months until they were caught. He lost a rank and was confined to base for 6 months. There are already regulations in place to cover such abuse.

The idea of segregation is as offensive as racial segregation. Once again you have shown that lovely stereotype that just because someone is gay they are/want to have sex with anyone of the same sex. This is not true and 99% of the time people concerned about this are simply dealing with their own internal sexual identity issues. Without going over the various harassment scandals the military has encountered over the years, every one of which was straight men harassing or violating women, the military can adapt it's current rules regarding sexual conduct.

You also have to understand that this is not just an enlisted man issue. It literally goes to the top. I have met gay Navy Seals, Marines, Colonel's, and the second in command of a major local base. These people are no more interested in their fellow officers, sexually, than you are of perhaps 99% of the people you encounter on a daily basis.

It is "unconscionable to target gays or lesbians for who they are," Obama said during an appearance at the National Prayer Breakfast.

The measure being considered in Uganda is "odious," he added.

The organization which sponsors the breakfast, the Fellowship Foundation, has been associated with efforts to pass the bill, according to the ethics group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington.

The measure would punish sexual activity between persons of the same sex with long jail terms or death.

Sure, thanks to our police the world mentality, we have bases all over the earth with housing and barracks in training camps. Are we going to stick the gay men in with straight men so they can sleep and shower together, ditto for gay women?

The idea of segregation is as offensive as racial segregation. Once again you have shown that lovely stereotype that just because someone is gay they are/want to have sex with anyone of the same sex. This is not true and 99% of the time people concerned about this are simply dealing with their own internal sexual identity issues. Without going over the various harassment scandals the military has encountered over the years, every one of which was straight men harassing or violating women, the military can adapt it's current rules regarding sexual conduct.

These situations occur daily in every gym, fitness center etc. in this area and there doesn't seem to be problem.

"that lovely stereotype that just because someone is gay they are/want to have sex with anyone of the same sex".. so if I'm male, straight, but I assure the powers that be that I don't want to have sex with 99% of the women I'm around, I should be allowed to shower with the women at the local health club? Apparently equal treatment is not enough?

I'm all for mandatory mutual sex health club bathrooms and showers, assuming we all agree that's ok.

It's nice to see that when cornered you resort to 5th grade argumentative logic.

It's nice to see when cornered you're incapable of defending your position.

Part of being a winner is knowing when enough is enough. Sometimes you have to give up the fight and walk away, and move on to something that's more productive.

Well I just have to say, I'm jealous. By your standards, as a straight male in the military, I should be given the privilege of living closely among those that I sought after sexually, and no one would have a right to complain.

That's sounds ok really, my hope would be that men & women would be treated equally across the board. People who took advantage of that situation would be punished, but those that didn't would be left alone.

So I guess we are in the same boat, you want equal treatment for all, and I do to. I just wish I could go back to being a college student once and if it happens.

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about - there have always been gay men and women serving in our armed services (about 65,000 currently). All they are asking is to not be discharged/fired solely for being gay.

To go back to the original post, I have a question. If a gay person is not supposed to tell and nobody has the right to ask, how would you know that there are about 65,000 gays in the military? Maybe the real number is only 10,000....Maybe the real number is 125,000.

It would seem to me that the idea of attempting to count this group is asking to open a huge can of worms.