Illegal Immigration

I don't have any papers :shock:

Arizona has passed legislation making it a crime to be an illegal immigrant and requiring police to check the immigration status of anyone they suspect is an illegal alien.

Hope they've got a lot of extra money in the budget for jails and lawsuits.

Um, it's already a crime to enter the country illegally. We deport people who do that. I think the arizona law is supposed to compensate for the fact that the federal government isn't doing it's job. Which is no real surprise to me.

So technically this give the cops the right to walk up to anyone on the street and question them without probable cause, and that person has to comply with certain requirements. If you're just hnging out at the park sitting on a bench reading your kindle or listening to your ipod, the cop can tap you on the shoulder and say "Hey buddy, I have a few questions for you. First I need to see some ID". The appropriate response (from a moral standpoint not a legal one) is go eff yourself. What say you?

law is not constitutional

Last time I researched it, it was not a criminal offense, rather a civil one. And I don't believe the first time is even considered an offense, they are just deported.

Most illegal immigrants get caught criminally if they are using a fake id or for identity theft.

Where this law will have issue is if it was somewhere everyone is Caucasian, such as many of the illegal immigrants we have in this area that are Slavic or eastern European. Not everyone that stays here past their visa expiration date or who enters illegally is brown. The feds have let the fence issue go for too long.

We should have properly maintained borders and I am really amazed that someone has not done a movie or a book on how this will lead to a major terrorist incident in the future. An unmanned border in the west and a dirty bomb has Harrison Ford written all over it.

We need an easier route to immigration and an easier route to remove those who refuse to take it. Our new citizens know more about the history of this country than 85 percent of those who were born here and will tell you they are "real Americans."

It's also important to think of what is going on in their country right now. The drug lords are ruling Mexico and slaughtering people in the streets. If I knew it was going to take anywhere from 6-12 years "depending" to become a citizen and I had no family here to sponser me, I'd be trying to get into Arizona, too. Take me to jail, at least I won't get shot for walking down the street.

Aleo, Tom Clancy wrote a book years ago where Muslim terrorists went to Mexico, paid someone to take them across the border, then went on a shooting spree in the malls of the Midwest to terrorize the country. Luckily one group jumped the gun and chose a mall where his CIA agent characters were shopping so it had a happy/trial free ending.

While I understand that illegal immigration is a big problem, I don't think making it a crime to "look foreign" is a good solution.

From what I can understand, the whole idea of this law is to harass people or make them fear imprisonment/loss of wages so they stay away.

As a descendant of immigrants who came to America for a better life (like the vast majority of our population), I have a big problem with that - especially since a large portion of illegal immigrants are people who come here legally and then stay longer than allowed..............and who have their names, photos, and contact info on file with the government already!

There will be massive problems with this. First there is no legal requirement that anybody even possess identification much less carry it on their person. No law requires a person to have a driver's license (of course he won't be able to drive), and nobody is required to obtain other forms of picture ID. The fact is, I've known people to leave the house without their ID, for whatever misguided reason. Not a good idea, but that's not the point. We can be certain that some legitimate US citizens are going to be questioned and unable to produce ID. They will hauled in, and questioned, probably have to phone a friend or parents to come to the station bring in their ID which is in the wallet that they left in their pants pocket. This amounts to a big fustercluck that wastes time, money and law enforcement resources. I'm in favor of widespread civil disobedience among legitimate US citizens who are questioned. I'd love to hear what the ACLU thinks about all this.

There will be massive problems with this. First there is no legal requirement that anybody even possess identification much less carry it on their person. No law requires a person to have a driver's license (of course he won't be able to drive), and nobody is required to obtain other forms of picture ID. The fact is, I've known people to leave the house without their ID, for whatever misguided reason. Not a good idea, but that's not the point. We can be certain that some legitimate US citizens are going to be questioned and unable to produce ID. They will hauled in, and questioned, probably have to phone a friend or parents to come to the station bring in their ID which is in the wallet that they left in their pants pocket. This amounts to a big fustercluck that wastes time, money and law enforcement resources. I'm in favor of widespread civil disobedience among legitimate US citizens who are questioned. I'd love to hear what the ACLU thinks about all this.

Like so many other thing about which they are wrong, they oppose it.

It is a very interesting debate because crunching the numbers seems to suggest that illegals being here makes life less expensive for us overweight middle classers, and yes, that includes paying for their healthcare, schooling, etc. This topic was on NPR's 'Talk of the Nation' a few weeks back, and the price tag for arresting and deporting a single illegal alien is something on the order of $20,000. You start doing this on the scale of the thousands, which it would have to be in order to have any effect on the illegal population, and it isn't sustainable fiscally.

Like so many other thing about which they are wrong, they oppose it.

Well any reasonable person or organization would oppose it. I knew that much. I was more interested in the specifics. This is from the Arizona chapter: Home Page It is a ridiculous law and the whole idea of "reasonable suspicion" is so ill-defined. Be assured that there will be instances in which police will question and possibly detain citizens of all races suspected of crimes without probable cause simply because it is based on their subjective assessment. I've always suspected that you were an advocate of police statism, now I know for sure.

law is not constitutional

It's times like this I'm glad we elected a constitutional lawyer as President. At least we have someone at the top who understands.

.

This has been going on in Farmers Branch TX for more than three years. To the tune of $3 million already spent. Their city council wants to continue fighting it. :roll:

"Last month, a federal judge ruled that the Farmers Branch ordinance banning illegal immigrants from renting apartments was unconstitutional."
Farmers Branch Illegal Immigrant Battle Costs $850,000+ | NBC Dallas-Fort Worth

" ......... In the name of homeland security and protecting borders, they have focused on illegal immigrants and anyone of "reasonable suspicion" (in the case of Arizona). Farmers Branch, which has spent $3 million fighting a legal case, recently decided it would appeal yet another court decision declaring unconstitutional its ordinance banning illegal immigrants from renting apartments and houses in that city. ....... "
Another classic standoff in the making over immigration | Editorials & Opinions | Fort Worth,...


.

It's times like this I'm glad we elected a constitutional lawyer as President. At least we have someone at the top who understands.

I wouldn't trust Obama with our Constitution any farther than I could throw him.

What part of the Arizona law is unconstitutional? I've read a few excerpts, nothing seemed to outrageous.

I wouldn't trust Obama with our Constitution any farther than I could throw him.

What part of the Arizona law is unconstitutional? I've read a few excerpts, nothing seemed to outrageous.

Shopper. Your avatar looks suspicious. Seems to me the olive in the martini looks like it wasn't grown here. Can I see your papers, please?

I wouldn't trust Obama with our Constitution any farther than I could throw him.

What part of the Arizona law is unconstitutional? I've read a few excerpts, nothing seemed to outrageous.

"States have no power to pass immigration laws because it?s an attribute of foreign affairs. Just as states can?t have their own foreign policies or enter into treaties, they can?t have their own immigration laws either."

That's what the official legal folks say anyway - I find it abhorrent from a civil rights standpoint and hope that the 14th amendment can somehow apply. I know I certainly find "being brown" to be a lack of probable cause. :angry:

Arizona should have a big brown festival where millions of brown people, all legal US citizens descend upon the state. Kind of a music festival, a Brownapalooza if you will. They should make a point to openly speak lanuguages other than English whenever possible in front of law enforcement. You know give 'em something to do. Of course they should carry ID and all that. What a hoot it would be to see the system get broken and point out the sheer folly of this absolutely retarded law!!!

I don't have any papers :shock:

They might just ship you back to Valhalla then! ;-)

"States have no power to pass immigration laws because it?s an attribute of foreign affairs. Just as states can?t have their own foreign policies or enter into treaties, they can?t have their own immigration laws either."

I'm all for debate on the constitutionality. But really, if the feds refuse to do anything, and citizens in arizona are being shot dead from across the border, can you really blame the state for taking action?

Arizona should have a big brown festival where millions of brown people, all legal US citizens descend upon the state. Kind of a music festival, a Brownapalooza if you will. They should make a point to openly speak lanuguages other than English whenever possible in front of law enforcement. You know give 'em something to do. Of course they should carry ID and all that. What a hoot it would be to see the system get broken and point out the sheer folly of this absolutely retarded law!!!

I would get a spray tan for this, Lou.

They might just ship you back to Valhalla then! ;-)

:shock::shock:

They might just ship you back to Valhalla then! ;-)

The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands
To fight the horde, singing and crying: "Valhalla, I am coming!"

YouTube - Led zeppelin - immigrant song

I would get a spray tan for this, Lou.

We'll kidnap Lou Dobbs and force him to attend. We'll need a straitjacket and thorazine. Speaking of tans, why not have Panama Jack as the sponsor? He's legal (I think)

There are people on this thread with all different beliefs and perspectives. That being said, can we all agree that illegal immigration is a problem?

I doubt that I will get 100% agreement with that question, but maybe I'll be surprised.

If you agree that it is a problem, and you don't agree with what Arizona is doing, what is your solution?

I don't know the answer, but most of you are smarter than I, and I am interested in real answers. I'm not against immigration; I just think that it should be done legally. Yes, and I too come from immigrants (I think we all do).

There are people on this thread with all different beliefs and perspectives. That being said, can we all agree that illegal immigration is a problem?

I doubt that I will get 100% agreement with that question, but maybe I'll be surprised.

If you agree that it is a problem, and you don't agree with what Arizona is doing, what is your solution?

I don't know the answer, but most of you are smarter than I, and I am interested in real answers. I'm not against immigration; I just think that it should be done legally. Yes, and I too come from immigrants (I think we all do).

This is the first semblance of common sense I've seen on this ridiculous thread. Anyone who thinks we don't have an immigration problem has their head stuck where the sun don't shine. We are a nation of laws but somehow because they might be difficult or unsavory to enforce, we have forgotten that or won't accept it, one of the two. Arizona has reacted because the federal government will not. Their citizens on the border have been killed and harassed. They want something done and rightly so. The law, as passed by a duly seated legislature and signed by a duly elected governor of a state, is obviously more to bring attention and action, at the federal level, to a situation that is rapidly getting out of hand...people streaming across our borders ILLEGALLY in unprecedented numbers. Whether they are brown, pink, white or polka dot doesn't matter. Our immigration law is being flounted in our faces. If you don't like our laws, petition our elected officials to change them. If they don't throw them out! To correct the situation start by sealing our borders in any manner necessary. Then correct our laws if need be and deal with illegal immigrants in a manner deemed necessary by our elected officials.

Has anyone actually read the law? Contrary to the talk, it is a reasonable, limited, carefully-crafted measure designed to help law enforcement deal with a serious problem in Arizona. Its authors anticipated criticism and went to great lengths to make sure it is constitutional and will hold up in court. It is the criticism of the law that is over the top, not the law itself.​

The law requires police to check with federal authorities on a person's immigration status, if officers have stopped that person for some legitimate reason and come to suspect that he or she might be in the U.S. illegally. The heart of the law is this provision: "For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency…where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person…"​

Critics have focused on the term "reasonable suspicion" to suggest that the law would give police the power to pick anyone out of a crowd for any reason and force them to prove they are in the U.S. legally. Some foresee mass civil rights violations targeting Hispanics.​

What fewer people have noticed is the phrase "lawful contact," which defines what must be going on before police even think about checking immigration status. "That means the officer is already engaged in some detention of an individual because he's violated some other law," says Kris Kobach, a University of Missouri Kansas City Law School professor who helped draft the measure. "The most likely context where this law would come into play is a traffic stop."​

As far as "reasonable suspicion" is concerned, there is a great deal of case law dealing with the idea, but in immigration matters, it means a combination of circumstances that, taken together, cause the officer to suspect lawbreaking. It's not race -- Arizona's new law specifically says race and ethnicity cannot be the sole factors in determining a reasonable suspicion.​