Many of us have engaged in debate of Arizona's immigration reform laws. Even though this issue has died down here on Sowal.com it seems to be very alive nationally in the form of calls for boycott from citizens and rhetoric from politicians.
Just this week Sarah Palin got in on it appearing with AZ's governor to tell President Obama to do his job and secure our border.
Palin to Obama: 'Do your job, secure our border' - CNN.com
Palin's antics are in response to the president's criticism of the law.
Obama Criticizes "Misguided" Arizona Immigration Bill - Political Hotsheet - CBS News
Here's my problem with this whole thing. There is misinformation out there coming from all sides. Some important facts are being ignored.
So- here is my attempt to try to set some of the record straight.
The original law contained ambiguous language that seemed to allow police officers to walk up to anybody for any or no reason and ask them for their papers because they looked a certain way. This was the law that I was personally against and that Obama called "misguided" (on or around April 23rd). After this was signed into law there were protests and calls for a boycott of AZ. At this point, things were fairly straight forward.
Then about five days later the AZ Governor signed changes to the law:
Governor signs several changes to Arizona immigration law - Phoenix Arizona news, breaking news, local news, weather radar, traffic from ABC15 News | ABC15.com
Among other things, the changes mean that police could no longer ask someone for their papers for any/no reason. They first needed to be observed breaking the law.
This is a game changer for me. I do not believe in the US that I should be asked for my ID because a police officer doesn't like the way I look. But if I'm speeding or stealing something or I get into a fight- ask away.
The problem is- I believe these changes were downplayed and there are a lot of people protesting the original verbiage of the law rather than the revised legislation.
And I think it is disingenious of Palin to be vocally denouncing Obama's crticism of the AZ law when it came 5 days before the law was changed.
I am fine with the AZ policy now and I believe a lot of folks would be if they were made to understand the changes that were quietly made to it.
Replies
41
Beach Fanatic
I wonder if Obama has even read the 10 page law? For that matter wober if he has read the Health Bill?
Beach FanaticAuthor
I wonder if Obama has even read the 10 page law? For that matter wober if he has read the Health Bill?
I wonder the same about all of our elected officials and the pundits.
Beach Comber
i am very proud arizona has stepped up to the plate. i believe in their law 100%. i went to the website and supported the bill. it is amazing how many names they have on the petition.
Beach Fanatic
I 100% support enforcing immigration laws of the us. Ask the 1000's of unemployed framers,sheet rock workers,carpenters,concrete and tile workers,house cleaners due to cheap illegal immigration. go to any construction site threwout walton county and tell me how many americans you see.once the illegals are here it's game over. we as americans are compassionate caring people and will never enforce real mass deportation. we will never turn away the sick or poor due to legal status. the only solution is the stop people before they enter and thats the job of the gov't for once enforcing our borders which is the law.
SoWal Insider
I wonder if Obama has even read the 10 page law? For that matter wober if he has read the Health Bill?
AG Eric Holder hadn't but that didn't stop his 'antics'.
Beach Fanatic
Thanks Geo, I for one was seriously wondering what was going on that made many want to boycott Arizona. It was all too "tldr" for me to delve into. Now I get it. Makes sense the way it is NOW, but I agree, the earlier version stunk.
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Beach Fanatic
We here in Sowal see a good number of folks from other countries, Mexico, being dominant, in the service industry.
We don't border Mexico at all and the numbers are obvious.
I wonder how much more we'd feel about folks coming here illegally if we were living in a state that borders someplace like Mexico? I'd bet we'd have a different perspective.
It's also important to look at the current plight of this particular country. Many already say the mexican druglords have actually won the war they rage against the mexican government. Many are fleeing to the United States for fear for their lives. They're illegal, but they're alive.
We don't border Mexico at all and the numbers are obvious.
I wonder how much more we'd feel about folks coming here illegally if we were living in a state that borders someplace like Mexico? I'd bet we'd have a different perspective.
It's also important to look at the current plight of this particular country. Many already say the mexican druglords have actually won the war they rage against the mexican government. Many are fleeing to the United States for fear for their lives. They're illegal, but they're alive.
Beach FanaticAuthor
Like I said, I have no issue now that the law has been changed.
But I gotta say- it bothered me when folks defended the original verbiage of the law citing drug violence, loss of American jobs, etc as their reasons.
These are easy issues to solve. Legalize marijuana and most of the drug violence goes away. Redirect the funds wasted on the misguided and failed war on drugs to secure our borders and go after the businesses who employ illegals.
If you want to solve a problem you go to the source- not try to deal with the other problems that the real problem cause.
But I gotta say- it bothered me when folks defended the original verbiage of the law citing drug violence, loss of American jobs, etc as their reasons.
These are easy issues to solve. Legalize marijuana and most of the drug violence goes away. Redirect the funds wasted on the misguided and failed war on drugs to secure our borders and go after the businesses who employ illegals.
If you want to solve a problem you go to the source- not try to deal with the other problems that the real problem cause.
Beach Fanatic
Like I said, I have no issue now that the law has been changed.
But I gotta say- it bothered me when folks defended the original verbiage of the law citing drug violence, loss of American jobs, etc as their reasons.
These are easy issues to solve. Legalize marijuana and most of the drug violence goes away. Redirect the funds wasted on the misguided and failed war on drugs to secure our borders and go after the businesses who employ illegals.
If you want to solve a problem you go to the source- not try to deal with the other problems that the real problem cause.
Geo, maybe I'm not fully understanding your statement. It sounds like you believe that private businesses, rather than law enforcement, should be the ones who regulate illegals.
Beach FanaticAuthor
Hi Murray,
I'm saying if our government really wants to address these problems they should go at them directly.
If drug violence in border states is an issue then legalize the product they are fighting over.
If jobs lost to illegals is the issue then go after the businesses who employ them. Make it a serious offense and enforce it.
I'm saying if our government really wants to address these problems they should go at them directly.
If drug violence in border states is an issue then legalize the product they are fighting over.
If jobs lost to illegals is the issue then go after the businesses who employ them. Make it a serious offense and enforce it.
SoWal Expert
I call BS on the whole "cheap illegal workers are taking our jobs" thing.
While price is a factor is some cases, most of the time it has far more to do with who will actually show up and get the job done.
While price is a factor is some cases, most of the time it has far more to do with who will actually show up and get the job done.
Beach Fanatic
If jobs lost to illegals is the issue then go after the businesses who employ them. Make it a serious offense and enforce it.
So you want government to be able to penalize private business for hiring illegals, but you don't want government to penalize illegals being here illegally? Doesn't that make us citizens act more like law enforcement, much like a police state? What training should businesses to go to in order to recognize counterfeit documents? Private business owners should not be responsible for determining weather one is in the US legally. What happens if an illegal goes to a business to get a job and the employer says, "You don't have a green card? You are illegally. Wait here. I'm calling the police."
The cops show up, but don't have the authority to send the illegal back to his or her country of origin, so what next? The illegal is still here. Problem is still not solved. They will still show up for other jobs until someone is willing to hire them at a rate less than they would have to pay for legals.
Beach Fanatic
scooterbug. I understand what you are saying but I disagree. Let's use the analogy of Walmart competing with mom and pops. As long as Walmart is willing and able to sell goods for half the price of mom and pop competitors, Walmart will always be monetarily successful and mom and pops near Walmart will suffer as many (not all) of their customers buy more and more from Walmart.
Illegal workers, much like Walmart, will undercut others. Illegals will work for cash and don't care so much about benefits like health insurance paid for by employers. Employers can save money by not paying gov't FICA. Also, employers don't have to pay benefits to illegals.
The question is, What would an employer have to pay an American to do a job that an illegal is doing? If employers did not hire illegals, the price of many things from entree's at restaurants to the price to build a home, would increase greatly, just as people would have much less money if they had to buy all their goods at mom and pops rather than big discount stores like Walmart.
Illegal workers, much like Walmart, will undercut others. Illegals will work for cash and don't care so much about benefits like health insurance paid for by employers. Employers can save money by not paying gov't FICA. Also, employers don't have to pay benefits to illegals.
The question is, What would an employer have to pay an American to do a job that an illegal is doing? If employers did not hire illegals, the price of many things from entree's at restaurants to the price to build a home, would increase greatly, just as people would have much less money if they had to buy all their goods at mom and pops rather than big discount stores like Walmart.
SoWal Expert
That comment was directed at ray - IME a large part of the reason there are so many "mexicans" at Walton County construction sites is that they actually show up for work - sober.
I in no way support hiring illegals and think that companies who do so should be penalized, but I think far too often anyone "brown" gets blamed for things.
I in no way support hiring illegals and think that companies who do so should be penalized, but I think far too often anyone "brown" gets blamed for things.
Beach FanaticAuthor
I don't personally care if illegal Mexican workers fill jobs most people don't want. But many people evidently do as they cited this as a reason why they were for the first iteration of the AZ immigration law.
I never said I don't want government going after the illegals. I said I don't want lawmakers passing laws to do it like the first iteration of AZ's reform.
Here's an analogy- how do we effectively deal with underage drinking/smoking? We make it difficult for business owners and employees who serve them/sell to them. Bouncers and convenience store clerks spot fake ids all the time and they do it because they don't want to get busted serving/selling to underage patrons.
I believe it
I
I never said I don't want government going after the illegals. I said I don't want lawmakers passing laws to do it like the first iteration of AZ's reform.
Here's an analogy- how do we effectively deal with underage drinking/smoking? We make it difficult for business owners and employees who serve them/sell to them. Bouncers and convenience store clerks spot fake ids all the time and they do it because they don't want to get busted serving/selling to underage patrons.
I believe it
I
SoWal Insider
So you want government to be able to penalize private business for hiring illegals, but you don't want government to penalize illegals being here illegally? Doesn't that make us citizens act more like law enforcement, much like a police state? What training should businesses to go to in order to recognize counterfeit documents? Private business owners should not be responsible for determining weather one is in the US legally. What happens if an illegal goes to a business to get a job and the employer says, "You don't have a green card? You are illegally. Wait here. I'm calling the police."
The cops show up, but don't have the authority to send the illegal back to his or her country of origin, so what next? The illegal is still here. Problem is still not solved. They will still show up for other jobs until someone is willing to hire them at a rate less than they would have to pay for legals.
I agree, that's the easy way out, and doesn't solve the core problem of border security. I'm fine with fining businesses that employ illegals, but we also need the federal government to do one of the very few jobs it's actually tasked to do - secure our borders.
Beach Fanatic
I think that it is unfortunate that the politicians in Arizona crafted the initial bill so poorly. It certainly smacked of severe Constitutional issues. The recrafted one seems perfectly acceptable to me however.
It is amazing to me that people can brazenly violate our immigration laws and then stage protests when we discuss enforcing those laws. The voting public has clearly indicated to the politicians in DC that they want this fixed.
The rub is that the fix that the public wants is not the fix that our politicians (and their masters) want.
This issue, more than any other, demonstrates to me the wide gulf that exists between the politicos and the public.
It seems to be a non-partisan gap. Both Republicans and Democrats seem bound and determined to ignore the desires of the public in this matter.
It is amazing to me that people can brazenly violate our immigration laws and then stage protests when we discuss enforcing those laws. The voting public has clearly indicated to the politicians in DC that they want this fixed.
The rub is that the fix that the public wants is not the fix that our politicians (and their masters) want.
This issue, more than any other, demonstrates to me the wide gulf that exists between the politicos and the public.
It seems to be a non-partisan gap. Both Republicans and Democrats seem bound and determined to ignore the desires of the public in this matter.
SoWal Expert
To be Devil's advocate, what happens if we do go ahead and completely secure our border with Mexico.
Do they then just come in through Canada - aka the longest unsecured border in the world?
Do they then just come in through Canada - aka the longest unsecured border in the world?
Beach Fanatic
To be Devil's advocate, what happens if we do go ahead and completely secure our border with Mexico.
Do they then just come in through Canada - aka the longest unsecured border in the world?
No, they will hop in their six-pack boats and head to Florida to seek assylum like the Haitians and Cubans...
quite frankly, the mexicans probably have more justification for assylum now than either the Cubans or Haitians do to the cartel wars....
Edited
Moderator
One thing that has gone unsaid since day one (or maybe I missed it) is that the Arizona law is a mirror image of the federal law. It just allows local authorities to enforce it. They cannot stop people for no reason. There has to be some sort of reasonable suspicion. Also, federal law requires that all non-citizens carry documentation (green card, etc) while in the country. This is not something that the Arizona law requires that is above and beyond what is already required by federal law.
SoWal Insider
Bet this didn't make the news.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Actually it did. NPR had discussions on it the day and the day after, it happened. Most commentators felt the Mexican president was out of line...not sure if any television picked it up..
Beach FanaticAuthor
Some of what McClintock said resonated with me- the parts in his intro and his closing about it being inappropriate for Caldron to be lecturing our congress, the part about the US having an immigration process in place that Mexico doesn't.
But I disagree with the parts about one language, one flag and the whole idea of what it means to be a real American.
I too saw this covered by the media so your assumption doesn't seem to be true...
But I disagree with the parts about one language, one flag and the whole idea of what it means to be a real American.
I too saw this covered by the media so your assumption doesn't seem to be true...
Beach Fanatic
To me, Rep. Tom McClintock was right on target! It is amazing that we have allowed our immigration enforcement to reach the point it is at today and no one party is to blame but it is a travesty. The present policy of coming across our border, North or South, is not one that many fought to preserve and protect. I called Rep. McClintock's office and expressed my deep appreciation for his speech.
Beach FanaticAuthor
To me, Rep. Tom McClintock was right on target! It is amazing that we have allowed our immigration enforcement to reach the point it is at today and no one party is to blame but it is a travesty. The present policy of coming across our border, North or South, is not one that many fought to preserve and protect. I called Rep. McClintock's office and expressed my deep appreciation for his speech.
I'm with you on the enforcement of laws, closing our borders, etc.
But I'm not on board with the "Speak English, this is America" sentiment. McClintock discussed assimilation. But his speech made it seem as if the way it has worked and should work is-
You come here, immediately learn english fluently and now we are one. Truth is it takes a few generations.
My great grandparents came from Poland in the early 1900's. They spoke only broken English into their 90's. Their children (e.g. my grandmother who lives in Chicago) speak both English and Polish fluently. But I wouldn't consider her an assimilated American. She gravitates toward the Polish neighborhoods where she buys Polish food from the poles who just got here, she attends Catholic mass in Polish, etc.
Then you have my dad who spoke little polish and was probably the first generation to assimilate in the sense that he was more American than Polish. Get to me and my generation and there isn't a trace of Polish language, culture, etc.
I believe my experience is more representative of the assimilation process of immigrants than what McClintock envisions.
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