Schools are closed because 40% of the teachers called in sick, the Governor is threatening to call out the National Guard, protesters spent the night sleeping in the Capitol building, the Super Bowl Champs are taking sides, and the police have shut down the streets around the governor's house (in a different city) due to hundreds of protesters.
This is going to be interesting to watch - mass civil disobedience, plus the parallels between this governor and Florida's Scott are interesting. (He turned down high speed rail money, is offering tax breaks to get businesses to relocate, wants to sell off state assets, appointed someone in construction to streamline the DNR, isn't taking a salary etc.)
Thousands descend on Wis. Capitol in protest - Politics - More politics - msnbc.com
MADISON, Wis. ? Thousands of people descended on the Wisconsin state Capitol for a second day of powerful protests Wednesday as key votes approached on Republican Gov. Scott Walker's plan to strip away the collective bargaining rights of public employees.
While other states have proposed bills curtailing labor rights, Wisconsin's measure is the boldest step by a new Republican governor and Legislature to solve budget problems by confronting organized labor. It would end collective bargaining, except over wages less than the Consumer Price Index, for all state, county and local workers except for police, firefighters and the state patrol.
Walker's plan would make workers pay half the costs of their pensions and at least 12.6 percent of their health care premiums. State employees' costs would go up by an average of 8 percent. The changes would save the state $30 million by June 30 and $300 million over the next two years to address a $3.6 billion budget shortfall. Unions could still represent workers, but could not seek pay increases above the Consumer Price Index unless approved by a public referendum. Unions also could not force employees to pay dues and would have to hold annual votes to stay organized. Local police, firefighters and state troopers would retain their collective bargaining rights.
scooterbug44scooterbug44SoWal ExpertSowal16,706 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Expert
scooterbug44SoWal ExpertSowal16,706 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Expert9,806 views
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30ashopper30ashopperSoWal InsiderRight here!6,845 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Insider
30ashopperSoWal InsiderRight here!6,845 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Insider"me me me"
cabytheseacabytheseaBeach Lover132 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Lover
Which state will be the next California?
Yep - it was either make these changes or have up to 6,000 get laid off or furloughed.
The teacher's union* does not have a lot of popular support - the "me, me, me" attitude isn't new.
*actual teachers yes, teacher's union - no
The teacher's union* does not have a lot of popular support - the "me, me, me" attitude isn't new.
*actual teachers yes, teacher's union - no
Bob WellsBob WellsBeach Fanatic3,380 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
Bob WellsBeach Fanatic3,380 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach FanaticYou all do a pretty good job at bashing Unions here. You think its a me attitude. What I see is an attitude of me from those who want to take from the worker what has been negotiated. These same folks you are attacking still pay taxes, still buy groceries that continue to increase in cost, have to pay mortgages/rent, have to pay for the gas to get to that job. I choose to be a UNION member. I will vote to stay Union and continue to pay my dues. You all think the whole problem is the Unions, you might look at those who were elected, both republican and democrats. These wages and benefits were not negotiated blindly, they have the same info and in many cases have more assistance in crafting their proposals. The reason for Unions have not changes, Better Pay, Better Benefits and Better Working Conditions. Not one person out there who complains about what others make would turn down a dividend payment, or a SS increase or a pay raise that your boss may have decided to give you even if it meant an increase in the cost of the product or service, well I won't either. The difference is I negotiate as a group, in good faith and the politics of whether I am liked or disliked does not play into it. Then you all say, well what about the bad employees, we have an obligation to represent them as well as the good employee. If management has their ducks in a row they terminate bad employees, if they don't that employee stays. They have their job to do we have ours.
It typically takes the state and the teacher's union 15 months to agree on a contract and during that time, the teacher's union uses various methods that are unpopular with the everyday citizen to try and get its way.
Collective bargaining for state employees is something the state legislature has been explicitly given the power to grant or take away. The unions' collective bargaining contracts are expired, so he gave them the required 30 days notice that they will not be continued further.
The governor is facing a budget crisis and it seems like he got fed up with the lack of cooperation and so has decided to play hardball.
I don't like him, but he IS making the kind of changes and hard choices that are going to be necessary in many places to get budgets under control.
The choice was that the unions would make some concessions or thousands of people would get furloughed or lose their jobs.
And those "concessions" are things most of their friends and neighbors are already doing because of the economy.
In this scenario, the average teacher makes $52K and doesn't pay anything to either their pension or their health insurance. The governor wants them to contribute 5.8% to their pension and pay 12.6% of their insurance premium - which he says is still half the national average.
Collective bargaining for state employees is something the state legislature has been explicitly given the power to grant or take away. The unions' collective bargaining contracts are expired, so he gave them the required 30 days notice that they will not be continued further.
The governor is facing a budget crisis and it seems like he got fed up with the lack of cooperation and so has decided to play hardball.
I don't like him, but he IS making the kind of changes and hard choices that are going to be necessary in many places to get budgets under control.
The choice was that the unions would make some concessions or thousands of people would get furloughed or lose their jobs.
And those "concessions" are things most of their friends and neighbors are already doing because of the economy.
In this scenario, the average teacher makes $52K and doesn't pay anything to either their pension or their health insurance. The governor wants them to contribute 5.8% to their pension and pay 12.6% of their insurance premium - which he says is still half the national average.
Edited
Bob WellsBob WellsBeach Fanatic3,380 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
Bob WellsBeach Fanatic3,380 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach FanaticBased on this site the average teacher pay is not that high but the average starting teacher pay is around 26000 annually, that means a new teacher would pay approx 1500 towards their retirement and to pay 12.6 on thier insurance which based on 500 a month will cost this teacher a 750 a year. Now lets say that they have a certain requirement to set up their classrooms and that money comes from their pocketlets assume 500 a year it may be more but I am just assuming. That teacher will end up paying 2750 a year. That brings there base pay 2350 and thats before they take out state tax, federal tax and such. I don't know about you but how does that look now. Wisconsin Teacher Salary | Teaching Salaries in WI: $46,390
To be fair, I know nothing about this site I just googled it.
To be fair, I know nothing about this site I just googled it.
It typically takes the state and the teacher's union 15 months to agree on a contract and during that time, the teacher's union uses various methods that are unpopular with the everyday citizen to try and get its way.
Collective bargaining for state employees is something the state legislature has been explicitly given the power to grant or take away. The unions' collective bargaining contracts are expired, so he gave them the required 30 days notice that they will not be continued further.
The governor is facing a budget crisis and it seems like he got fed up with the lack of cooperation and so has decided to play hardball.
I don't like him, but he IS making the kind of changes and hard choices that are going to be necessary in many places to get budgets under control.
The choice was that the unions would make some concessions or thousands of people would get furloughed or lose their jobs.
And those "concessions" are things most of their friends and neighbors are already doing because of the economy.
In this scenario, the average teacher makes $52K and doesn't pay anything to either their pension or their health insurance. The governor wants them to contribute 5.8% to their pension and pay 12.6% of their insurance premium - which he says is still half the national average.
I got those numbers from an article linked to the others, which I can't find right now because everyone is now writing about it. :roll:
This is a similar article from the same source saying the average salary was $51K in 2010 and that their benefits are some of the best in the nation.
Teachers say Walker's cuts would hurt education
Please note I am not saying teachers don't deserve good pay, just that this is a major budget issue - they've been getting raises every year and fantastic benefits and there just isn't money to keep that up.
He also tried to get performance pay for teachers included and the union wouldn't go for it.
And one of the biggest items in the budget proposal is restructuring the state's debt.
This is a similar article from the same source saying the average salary was $51K in 2010 and that their benefits are some of the best in the nation.
Teachers say Walker's cuts would hurt education
Please note I am not saying teachers don't deserve good pay, just that this is a major budget issue - they've been getting raises every year and fantastic benefits and there just isn't money to keep that up.
He also tried to get performance pay for teachers included and the union wouldn't go for it.
And one of the biggest items in the budget proposal is restructuring the state's debt.
Edited
30ashopper30ashopperSoWal InsiderRight here!6,845 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Insider
30ashopperSoWal InsiderRight here!6,845 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal InsiderFrom that article is sounds as though the Wisconsin legislature has been kissing the back side of organized labor for a long long time. Apparently now the citizens of the state are fed up so they put some people in charge who could work to normalize the situation.
cabytheseacabytheseaBeach Lover132 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Lover
The auto workers union has a different point of view now, I think. I have worked with the Steelworkers since the '70's - boy, times have changed. And probably will continue to!
Bob WellsBob WellsBeach Fanatic3,380 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
Bob WellsBeach Fanatic3,380 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach FanaticAverage salary is not the same as starting salary. Average salary takes into all salaries including those at the very top, you have to wonder about the effect to those on the lower end. Hopefully food stamps will be available to them, but because they have a government job some will oppose them getting that assistance. When I looked at the pay increases I think it was less than 3 percent so I suppose those are huge numbers when your looking at 23000 a year. Now they will make less to feed their family, pay monthly expenses ect. Alot of talk about performance pay, I have yet to find anything that would not be subjective. Even 30a has yet to come up with a palatable solution IMO.
I got those numbers from an article linked to the others, which I can't find right now because everyone is now writing about it. :roll:
This is a similar article from the same source saying the average salary was $51K in 2010 and that their benefits are some of the best in the nation.
Teachers say Walker's cuts would hurt education
Please note I am not saying teachers don't deserve good pay, just that this is a major budget issue - they've been getting raises every year and fantastic benefits and there just isn't money to keep that up.
He also tried to get performance pay for teachers included and the union wouldn't go for it.
And one of the biggest items in the budget proposal is restructuring the state's debt.
Edited
30ashopper30ashopperSoWal InsiderRight here!6,845 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Insider
30ashopperSoWal InsiderRight here!6,845 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal InsiderAverage salary is not the same as starting salary. Average salary takes into all salaries including those at the very top, you have to wonder about the effect to those on the lower end. Hopefully food stamps will be available to them, but because they have a government job some will oppose them getting that assistance. When I looked at the pay increases I think it was less than 3 percent so I suppose those are huge numbers when your looking at 23000 a year. Now they will make less to feed their family, pay monthly expenses ect. Alot of talk about performance pay, I have yet to find anything that would not be subjective. Even 30a has yet to come up with a palatable solution IMO.
What will their annual income be from the state pension after they retire at 55? How much will they earn through state funded medical coverage? When I calculate my income, I include what my company pays into my 401K. Have you accounted for that kind of income in your calculations?
Edited
30ashopper30ashopperSoWal InsiderRight here!6,845 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Insider
30ashopperSoWal InsiderRight here!6,845 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal InsiderThis is why state funded retirement pensions and retirement health benefits should be abolished. Pay people, up front, what their services are worth.
Edited
seagroovysseagroovysBeach Lover59 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Lover
Organized labor gave us the middle class, It is not without its faults, but when I am in a Unionized state, and I hire a non-union worker. That non=union worker is payed about 2/3 rds of what a union member is paid. So if a Union worker is payed 45.00 per hour, a now-union worker is paid around 30.00. It seems in Florida, a great wage is 15.00 to 20.00 per hour. How can these folks raise a family on that. They can't. It is a great state to be an owner, and not a worker. And it is proud of that. So be it. But it has a very small middle class. If I own a business here I have a large labor pool of people conditioned to be poor. Is this what America is about. This High Speed Rail , would have been a boom for the economy and for the folks that would have built the system. Why was it turned down? Ask who had the bonds on the Toll Roads, find out what the competition is against the Rail, or who benefits financially. It is not about a morally bound Governor who is protecting the tax payer. Some time people have to pay the price for the decisions they make. And the decision to hire a Governor who by reputation always put the people first is not what they got. They hired a guy who is going to make it easier to put it to the little guy and be good for business. Hurray for the Rich......But they don't make it easier for the guy trying to raise a family.
30ashopper30ashopperSoWal InsiderRight here!6,845 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Insider
30ashopperSoWal InsiderRight here!6,845 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Insider
The historical illiteracy of Wisconsin teachers ? Hot Air
Our "new era of civility" continues to unravel. :cool:
Andy AAndy ABeach FanaticBlue Mountain Beach4,389 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
Andy ABeach FanaticBlue Mountain Beach4,389 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach FanaticThis is why state funded retirement pensions and retirement health benefits should be abolished. Pay people, up front, what their services are worth.You forget a couple of things (censored) would like to mention. At one time, public employees wages were much less than those of private sector employees. Therefore, retirement and health benefits, much like the military, were "deferred compensation" to be collected at a later date. Now, to the other point (censored) would like to make. Some people you pay up front, will at the end, expect to by paid there, too. Why? They either don't have the werewithall to save for their retirement or figure its really not necessary to start now and all at once its too late.
Some worked for a state that had retirement and did not have a union. (censored) did. So did (censored) wife. Neither of us were exactly overpaid for our efforts. You do not need a union to have decent benefits. They served their purpose in the '30's but those days are now gone and real benefactors of unions are those at the top who do the negotiatling and make salaries that are probably equivalent to those of many CEO's. One more thing. Unions have priced the American worker out of the labor market in many areas and places. In (censored) home town, they single handedly closed the steel mill and put thousands out of work. BTW, how much steel is produced in Pittsburg today? Am (censored) anti-union. You betcha. (censored) can see what they have done to American industry over the last 50 years, and while they are not solely to blame, they are a great part of our present mess.
I think that in 2010 many of the functions unions originally served are obsolete because other agencies and protections are now commonplace.
OMG! Canoehead just sent me this update. The Democrats are running for the border - the state border that is, because if none of them are present, they cannot have the vote.
The governor has sent state troopers after them - if just 1 Democrat is present, the vote can go forward (the Repubs have complete control and can pass it without them).
Wisconsin Protests: State Police Pursue Democratic Lawmakers Boycotting Vote
OMG! Canoehead just sent me this update. The Democrats are running for the border - the state border that is, because if none of them are present, they cannot have the vote.
The governor has sent state troopers after them - if just 1 Democrat is present, the vote can go forward (the Repubs have complete control and can pass it without them).
Wisconsin Protests: State Police Pursue Democratic Lawmakers Boycotting Vote
Andy AAndy ABeach FanaticBlue Mountain Beach4,389 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
Andy ABeach FanaticBlue Mountain Beach4,389 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach FanaticYep, Wisconsin's elected government at its finest.
They estimate 25,000 protested today. (20,000 were outside, with temps in the upper 40's and low 50s).
Democrats have fled the state and are refusing to disclose their locations.
State law is fuzzy on the details of how they can be "compelled to return."
:popcorn:
Democrats have fled the state and are refusing to disclose their locations.
State law is fuzzy on the details of how they can be "compelled to return."
:popcorn:
30ashopper30ashopperSoWal InsiderRight here!6,845 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Insider
30ashopperSoWal InsiderRight here!6,845 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal InsiderWhat seems kind of sad is that the teacher sick out (basically an illegal strike) closed a number of schools. Kids are sitting at home idle while these folks parade around the capital.
In the end, I doubt reps will fold, there's too much at stake now.
In the end, I doubt reps will fold, there's too much at stake now.
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