I really don't understand what all the fuss is about - there have always been gay men and women serving in our armed services (about 65,000 currently). All they are asking is to not be discharged/fired solely for being gay.
And it is not like we are trying something radical or untested - more than 25 countries currently allow openly gay people to serve and have for years - including most of our allies. (Canada, Great Britain, Israel, Australia, Germany, France, Denmark, Italy, Sweden, South Africa, New Zealand to name a few). The only members of NATO who don't allow it are Turkey and the USA. Russia allows it during wartime.
The reasons I have heard mentioned as to why this can't happen (morale, harassment, recruitment, retention, cohesion) have already been disproved by other countries allowing it, OUR forces participating in joint exercises with these countries, and polling of current personnel. Bear in mind that these are also the exact same reasons given over 50 years ago as to why we shouldn't integrate the military.
Not to mention that we waste billions of dollars training personnel who are either fired or choose not to reenlist because of the policy. And we spend millions investigating reports that someone might be gay. Not that they are harassing someone, not that they aren't doing their job, merely that they are gay.
So here's a news flash - our military has gay people - they are already showering, bunking, working, serving, and dying alongside their heterosexual counterparts - and letting them be honest about their sexuality w/o losing their job won't negatively change anything - but it will have many positive changes - financial, social, troop strength.
Now please tell me why (with some evidence/stats please) I am completely wrong and we cannot have openly gay men & women serving in our military...................instead of gay men and women hiding their sexuality.
And to head off any partisan squabbles, here is a link to a Republican group's web page discussing the issue in greater detail.
Issues: Gays in the Military
Replies
55
SoWal Guide
I really don't understand what all the fuss is about - there have always been gay men and women serving in our armed services (about 65,000 currently). All they are asking is to not be discharged/fired solely for being gay.
To go back to the original post, I have a question. If a gay person is not supposed to tell and nobody has the right to ask, how would you know that there are about 65,000 gays in the military? Maybe the real number is only 10,000....Maybe the real number is 125,000.
It would seem to me that the idea of attempting to count this group is asking to open a huge can of worms.
good point ash. and a can of worms it surely will be. but it seems to me that it has to be opened eventually. why not now? Don't Ask Don't Tell seems like a terribly wrong, dishonest way to operate. But at the time it was one solution that allowed gays to continue to serve as long as they remained quiet. It may have been the best they were going to get at the time. But, its really not good enough. It is just a way of putting off the inevitable - at some point its going to be time to open the can and deal with it - the question is - are we ready?
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Beach Fanatic
Allow me to put my spin on this and hopefully we'll get the other side as well.
I'm straight. I wouldn't have problems with daily activities of the military alongside a gay soldier.
It would get weird if someone took an interest in me. They would find out immediately that I'm not an available person, no big deal.
What would become weird would be going to the showers at the locker room with this particular person after this. I would think they were looking at me in a different manner than I believe should be allowed.
From a government perspective, what do you do about this? Give gays their own shower. No. I would imagine there are gay people who don't want other gay people looking at them in a manner they don't approve of. Is this really any different than having male and female showers?
I'm straight. I wouldn't have problems with daily activities of the military alongside a gay soldier.
It would get weird if someone took an interest in me. They would find out immediately that I'm not an available person, no big deal.
What would become weird would be going to the showers at the locker room with this particular person after this. I would think they were looking at me in a different manner than I believe should be allowed.
From a government perspective, what do you do about this? Give gays their own shower. No. I would imagine there are gay people who don't want other gay people looking at them in a manner they don't approve of. Is this really any different than having male and female showers?
Beach Fanatic
maybe it's time for a bit more privacy for everyone in the showers/locker-rooms 
what do health clubs and gyms do?
what do health clubs and gyms do?
SoWal Insider
maybe it's time for a bit more privacy for everyone in the showers/locker-rooms
That might be the simplest solution, but probably very costly - isolate everyone on base in areas where privacy must be respected.
If Obama we're smart, he'd kick something like that off right now, the number of construction jobs it would generate would probably be quite large.
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SoWal Insider
Sure, thanks to our police the world mentality, we have bases all over the earth with housing and barracks in training camps. Are we going to stick the gay men in with straight men so they can sleep and shower together, ditto for gay women? (Maybe the gay men should sleep in the womens quarters and vice versa?gay and straight have worked together in the military from the beginning. it has no bearing on the job. providing partners with benefits is only logical. getting people to accept gay couples is not a prerequisite to equal protection. don't ask, don't tell is delaying tactic posing as pragmatism.That might save some money and time.) The logistics equal what we went through when women joined the military. It took a while to get the issues worked out and they weren't integrated fully for decades. Which isn't to say it can't be done, we just need a Gays Armed Service Integration Act from Congress and Obama (would he sign it? doubt it), and the military won't have a choice.
Then benefits are a whole different issue. Currently under federal law partners would not receive benefits. Changing that requires yet another act from Congress and Obama (would he sign it? doubt it.)
I think you would have to start with the benefits, and work your way backwards (no pun intended). Start by getting people to accept gay couples. We have a long way to go, even California has a gay marriage ban in their Constitution now. Seems like we are going backwards sometimes.
Banned
Allow me to put my spin on this and hopefully we'll get the other side as well.
I'm straight. I wouldn't have problems with daily activities of the military alongside a gay soldier.
It would get weird if someone took an interest in me. They would find out immediately that I'm not an available person, no big deal.
What would become weird would be going to the showers at the locker room with this particular person after this. I would think they were looking at me in a different manner than I believe should be allowed.
From a government perspective, what do you do about this? Give gays their own shower. No. I would imagine there are gay people who don't want other gay people looking at them in a manner they don't approve of. Is this really any different than having male and female showers?
What should be done if someone began to strongly dislike you, should that person be given his own shower because you're afraid he is going to kick your ass? People living in close quarters are expected to conduct themselves in a professional manner and if not it should be dealt with swiftly and with authority. For years the military had no problem funding separate barracks, latrines, officers etc. for blacks. Looking back it all seems so silly and a waste of resources.
Beach Fanatic
What should be done if someone began to strongly dislike you, should that person be given his own shower because you're afraid he is going to kick your ass? People living in close quarters are expected to conduct themselves in a professional manner and if not it should be dealt with swiftly and with authority. For years the military had no problem funding separate barracks, latrines, officers etc. for blacks. Looking back it all seems so silly and a waste of resources.
and apparently the majority of the military have no problem with lifting this provision. As a matter of fact, many of the members of the military have private showers and bathrooms...with a roommate. Of course this may not apply in basic training situations or in combat fields. However, from the conversations I've had with members of the military who actually have experienced the situation, there is no problem in general--in basic training they are too focused on surviving the training and in combat they are focused on surviving generally. Apparently not many of the troops ask if someone is gay or straight when that person is responsible for having their back in a life or death situation.
Like the black white issue before, it appears to be a non-issue for the most part to the people who are actually affected. It just needs some politicians with some guts to deal with it in the appropriate manner. I think the Admiral stated the case very well.
Along the same lines, I think Leonard Pitts writes an excellent column in today's paper about the service of the Black military members. Much of the same can be said for the gay and lesbian service members IMO: http://www.tallahassee.com/article/...radox-Blacks-fighting-for-ideals-that-exclude
Edited
SWGB
I find it interesting that, although, gays were specifically barred from military service someone thought that showers in bathrooms should always have vanity screens between them. Even on submarines where space is at a premium. Apparently straight guys can't stop leering at each other long enough to take a shower. :scratch:
Beach Fanatic
Regarding the whole shower thing. I would imagine that although someone who is gay might admire the body of a heterosexual (and vice-versa) he/she wouldn't take it any further than that. What I'm saying is don't gays usually go for other gays 
As far as "Don't Ask Don't Tell" well, there is no need to ask. I mean the recruiter isn't going to ask on a form a) gay b) straight c) bi ;-) But if someone wants to let their sexuality be known then that shouldn't be an issue or if it comes out because say they were seen in public with their partner or they were at a gay rally etc....that shouldn't be an issue either. So my points are : Gay men and women aren't going to hit on straight men and women (I think some people have this fear that if they end up in a fox hole with a gay that means they're screwed - pun intended) Also, it is no one's business if someone is gay or not and if it is found that a soldier is gay then so be it. A soldier is a soldier.
My word I think this is a no-brainer.
G
As far as "Don't Ask Don't Tell" well, there is no need to ask. I mean the recruiter isn't going to ask on a form a) gay b) straight c) bi ;-) But if someone wants to let their sexuality be known then that shouldn't be an issue or if it comes out because say they were seen in public with their partner or they were at a gay rally etc....that shouldn't be an issue either. So my points are : Gay men and women aren't going to hit on straight men and women (I think some people have this fear that if they end up in a fox hole with a gay that means they're screwed - pun intended) Also, it is no one's business if someone is gay or not and if it is found that a soldier is gay then so be it. A soldier is a soldier.
My word I think this is a no-brainer.
G
SoWal Insider
Regarding the whole shower thing. I would imagine that although someone who is gay might admire the body of a heterosexual (and vice-versa) he/she wouldn't take it any further than that. What I'm saying is don't gays usually go for other gays
As far as "Don't Ask Don't Tell" well, there is no need to ask. I mean the recruiter isn't going to ask on a form a) gay b) straight c) bi ;-) But if someone wants to let their sexuality be known then that shouldn't be an issue or if it comes out because say they were seen in public with their partner or they were at a gay rally etc....that shouldn't be an issue either. So my points are : Gay men and women aren't going to hit on straight men and women (I think some people have this fear that if they end up in a fox hole with a gay that means they're screwed - pun intended) Also, it is no one's business if someone is gay or not and if it is found that a soldier is gay then so be it. A soldier is a soldier.
My word I think this is a no-brainer.
G
You apparently have never been to a bar in San Francisco.
Gay men hit on anything that moves, just like their straight counterparts.Beach Fanatic
You apparently have never been to a bar in San Francisco.
They are not soldiers. I've seen some real creeps in bars. I just don't think that would be an issue. A soldier goes by a code whether he/she is gay or not. Of course there are exceptions, but they will be weeded out just like any hetero who goes around hitting on women alllll the time.
G
Edited
SoWal ExpertAuthor
So basically the entire issue of not discriminating against the gay service members who are willing to die for their country comes down to sophomoric concerns about getting hit on or checked out in the shower? :roll:
We trust these people w/ multi-million (or billion) dollar hardware, weapons, and the security of our nation, but not to have some basic manners and civility?
We trust these people w/ multi-million (or billion) dollar hardware, weapons, and the security of our nation, but not to have some basic manners and civility?
Edited
SoWal Insider
They are not soldiers. I've seen some real creeps in bars. I just don't think that would be an issue. A soldier goes by a code whether he/she is gay or not. Of course there are exceptions, but they will be weeded out just like any hetero who goes around hitting on women alllll the time.
G
Would you feel comfortable taking a shower in front of some of those men?
Banned
Would you feel comfortable taking a shower in front of some of those men?
This shower fear is absurd, no one is going to order you to shower with a certain individual. I was in the military and not one installation I was ever on had enough showers for everyone to bath at the same time. The ship I was stationed on for 18 months had a single stall with two shower heads for 30+ enlisted men. You can choose a shower partner who gives the best back scrub instead of the best BJ.;-)
SWGB
You apparently have never been to a bar in San Francisco.
Would you feel comfortable taking a shower in front of some of those men?
Your bigotry runs deep. There is a vast difference between a military shower stall and a gay bar. As a straight man if you're walking into a gay bar you are putting yourself in a situation where a gay man might hit on you. That expectation isn't even close to reality in a military shower stall.
I'm thinking you are just concerned that someone might see your "short comings" and tell the rest of the platoon. That's not an exclusively gay thing, it's more of a male thing in general.
SoWal ExpertAuthor
In my experience, modesty becomes a minor consideration once your options (or the facilities) become limited.
Am I the only person who has spent a lot of time bathing or in various states of undress with people I am not sexually involved with/interested in?
You just get over it because there are more important factors.
Am I the only person who has spent a lot of time bathing or in various states of undress with people I am not sexually involved with/interested in?
You just get over it because there are more important factors.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Would you feel comfortable taking a shower in front of some of those men?
With my body - you bet!
SoWal ExpertAuthor
Would you feel comfortable taking a shower in front of some of those men?
As Papa Scooterbug says "give 'em a thrill"
.They'd be less interested/critical than most women.
Beach Fanatic
BTW - my post was a JOKE. But a woman and a man showering together is different - different parts, and women because of their cycles, etc... need more privacy IMO. But if it boiled down to it I wouldn't have an issue.
I will add - why is the fact that someone is gay mean that they always have sex on the brain?? I think many gay men and women would be thinking about a lot of other things in the shower other than checking out potential partners.
But a woman and a man showering together is different - different parts, and women because of their cycles, etc... need more privacy IMO. But if it boiled down to it I wouldn't have an issue.I will add - why is the fact that someone is gay mean that they always have sex on the brain?? I think many gay men and women would be thinking about a lot of other things in the shower other than checking out potential partners.
SoWal ExpertAuthor
Frankly, a lot of straight (and homophobic) guys think they are a lot more attractive to gay men then they actually are - and so think they are in "danger" of unwanted attentions. The reality is that they are Roseanne Barr, not Heidi Klum. :rofl:
SoWal Insider
So the consensus here seems to be that opposite sexes are entitled to privacy from the other sex, but sexual attraction should not play a role. In essence what you're saying is sexual attraction is not a defining characteristic. Personally I disagree with that. Not recognizing sexual preference undermines relevant rights issues. If we want sexual preference to be recognized as a defining characteristic of an individual, then we must treat it as such.
SoWal Insider
Frankly, a lot of straight (and homophobic) guys think they are a lot more attractive to gay men then they actually are - and so think they are in "danger" of unwanted attentions. The reality is that they are Roseanne Barr, not Heidi Klum. :rofl:
Not in the military. I think most men in uniform are pretty hot and usually are well toned.
In the military, short of worried about getting yourself killed in combat or/and protecting protecting your country, I think what probably bothers some people is the fact, married or not, we are all human. I'm sorry, but if Daniel Craig was showering next to me, there's now doubt, and I am happily married, that I would be making an effort to look at his package. (That's if I wasn't exhausted from boot camp or being in combat) Hail, I might even be tempted to look at Portia DeRossi, Ellen's partner.
But, from what I have seen as far as polls taken by service people, is the majority do not care about serving with a gay person. It seems the people who have the most issue with it are people not serving.
I have a question, though. Outside of the showering issue, I imagine the biggest problem the military will have overturning Don't ask, don't tell is benefits. Since gay marriages laws vary from State to State, if the military, being a Federal entity rules that partners are entitled to benefits, will they have to be married? and if not, what would constitute a partnership? sharing of a home? rental lease? and for how long? Wouldn't the government be setting a precedent by allowing benefits which could affect State's laws?
SoWal Insider
I am sometimes uncomfortable with the way Cowboy looks at me when I am in the shower.
If a female looks at me with desires in the spa dressing area, well.....that's her issue, not mine. And, if it has happened, I was oblivious.....does that mean I am comfortable with my heterosexuality enough to not be concerned?
Some people believe sexuality is entirely soul and energy, not necessarily a male or female thing. (They might be kinda' strange....just kidding.) But, this probably lends some explanation to attraction of the same gender......if and when it occurs.
If a female looks at me with desires in the spa dressing area, well.....that's her issue, not mine. And, if it has happened, I was oblivious.....does that mean I am comfortable with my heterosexuality enough to not be concerned?
Some people believe sexuality is entirely soul and energy, not necessarily a male or female thing. (They might be kinda' strange....just kidding.) But, this probably lends some explanation to attraction of the same gender......if and when it occurs.
SoWal Guide
Not in the military. I think most men in uniform are pretty hot and usually are well toned.
In the military, short of worried about getting yourself killed in combat or/and protecting protecting your country, I think what probably bothers some people is the fact, married or not, we are all human. I'm sorry, but if Daniel Craig was showering next to me, there's now doubt, and I am happily married, that I would be making an effort to look at his package. (That's if I wasn't exhausted from boot camp or being in combat) Hail, I might even be tempted to look at Portia DeRossi, Ellen's partner.
But, from what I have seen as far as polls taken by service people, is the majority do not care about serving with a gay person. It seems the people who have the most issue with it are people not serving.
I have a question, though. Outside of the showering issue, I imagine the biggest problem the military will have overturning Don't ask, don't tell is benefits. Since gay marriages laws vary from State to State, if the military, being a Federal entity rules that partners are entitled to benefits, will they have to be married? and if not, what would constitute a partnership? sharing of a home? rental lease? and for how long? Wouldn't the government be setting a precedent by allowing benefits which could affect State's laws?
yep, reminds me of that thread long ago about listing the top 3 or top 5 or top howevermany - on your to do list.anyhoo - was listening to NPR today on the issue and several military folks called in to say that the people serving could care less. that when it comes down to it, they are all in it together and they work together and no one even thinks about it. They did go through changes in their "thinking" when women started serving in combat - that took some adjustment. but as far as serving with same sex gay people - its nothing new.
these folks were speaking from their perspectives so I am not saying it pertains to all military - I am sure there are those who are not for gays serving openly in the military and never will be.
one day we'll have so many stories to tell our grandchildren about gay men and women - all the things society kept them from participating in - and that they we weren't allowed to ask, and they weren't allowed to tell, and that Aunt Jimmy was discharged from the Marines in the year 2006, etc. and they won't be able to fathom it.
Edited
SWGB
I am sometimes uncomfortable with the way Cowboy looks at me when I am in the shower.
If a female looks at me with desires in the spa dressing area, well.....that's her issue, not mine. And, if it has happened, I was oblivious.....does that mean I am comfortable with my heterosexuality enough to not be concerned?
Some people believe sexuality is entirely soul and energy, not necessarily a male or female thing. (They might be kinda' strange....just kidding.) But, this probably lends some explanation to attraction of the same gender......if and when it occurs.
Cowboy is probably perplexed as to why you get in that box and soak yourself when you have a perfectly good tongue.
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