Replies
51Beach Fanatic
The difference is that you make a deal and live with it.
If the CEO "back dates" stock options, then it is unethical.
If the CEO collects a lot of money because of the employment
contract he/she negotiated, and the company agreed to, then
it is ethical.[/quote]
What if the CEO is buddies with the board and this comes into play in the negotiations? What if he used to be on the board ?
What if after is appointment , he increases board reimbursement via stock or cash and other benefits ( free rides on the company jet..etc )
All legal but is it ethical? Anyone have a problem with this scenario?
If the CEO "back dates" stock options, then it is unethical.
If the CEO collects a lot of money because of the employment
contract he/she negotiated, and the company agreed to, then
it is ethical.[/quote]
What if the CEO is buddies with the board and this comes into play in the negotiations? What if he used to be on the board ?
What if after is appointment , he increases board reimbursement via stock or cash and other benefits ( free rides on the company jet..etc )
All legal but is it ethical? Anyone have a problem with this scenario?
Beach Fanatic
The difference is that you make a deal and live with it.
If the CEO "back dates" stock options, then it is unethical.
If the CEO collects a lot of money because of the employment
contract he/she negotiated, and the company agreed to, then
it is ethical.[/quote]
Here is another one to ponder. You are in charge of marshalling a bill through Congress to help Big Pharma under the guise of really helping seniors. Once you suceed in this role, you leave Congress and become CEO of big Pharma's lobbying group. Legal ...yes but is it ethical business?
see link http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/drugs/2004-12-15-drugs-usat_x.htm
If the CEO "back dates" stock options, then it is unethical.
If the CEO collects a lot of money because of the employment
contract he/she negotiated, and the company agreed to, then
it is ethical.[/quote]
Here is another one to ponder. You are in charge of marshalling a bill through Congress to help Big Pharma under the guise of really helping seniors. Once you suceed in this role, you leave Congress and become CEO of big Pharma's lobbying group. Legal ...yes but is it ethical business?
see link http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/drugs/2004-12-15-drugs-usat_x.htm
Beach FanaticAuthor
"..Anyone have a problem with this scenario..."
If so, sell the stock.
If so, sell the stock.
Beach FanaticAuthor
"...you leave Congress and become CEO of big Pharma's lobbying group. Legal ...yes but is it ethical business? .."
Obviously the voters voted for the wrong person.
Blame them.
Obviously the voters voted for the wrong person.
Blame them.
Beach FanaticAuthor
"...rather than some minimum wage guy getting out of a $20000 loan .."
Just to clarify, it was much more than $20,000.00 that the buyer "got out of."
And as a "machinist," his annual income is probably higher than mine.
I have no love for the CEO's and boards of directors of most public corp.,
but as nothing seems to change, stockholders must be happy
with the arrangements.
If stockholders abandoned such corporations en mass, you would see
changes.
In the mean time, if you sign on the dotted line, you need to live up to the
deal you have made.
Just to clarify, it was much more than $20,000.00 that the buyer "got out of."
And as a "machinist," his annual income is probably higher than mine.
I have no love for the CEO's and boards of directors of most public corp.,
but as nothing seems to change, stockholders must be happy
with the arrangements.
If stockholders abandoned such corporations en mass, you would see
changes.
In the mean time, if you sign on the dotted line, you need to live up to the
deal you have made.
SoWal Expert
Vote with your shares to reward ethics and punish lack thereof, do the same at the ballot box, and be willing to take your $ and business elsewhere.
There are ALWAYS ways to get your voice/opinion heard, you just have to take the time and effort to use them!
I'm waiting for a company who has been providing poor service to my friends and family to get back to the purchase price so I can dump it and invest those $ in a company who donates 5% of its profits to local charities and treats its employees well.
There are ALWAYS ways to get your voice/opinion heard, you just have to take the time and effort to use them!
I'm waiting for a company who has been providing poor service to my friends and family to get back to the purchase price so I can dump it and invest those $ in a company who donates 5% of its profits to local charities and treats its employees well.
Beach FanaticAuthor
"Vote with your shares to reward ethics and punish lack thereof, do the same at the ballot box, and be willing to take your $ and business elsewhere."
Unfortunetly, proxy voting is a joke. The only real way
to 'vote' shares in most publicly-held companies is to sell.
"...There are ALWAYS ways to get your voice/opinion heard, you just have to take the time and effort to use them!..."
Most annual meetings feature a dissident or two. Usually they don't
accomplish much beyond their entertainment value.
"I'm waiting for a company who has been providing poor service to my friends and family to get back to the purchase price so I can dump it and invest those $ in a company who donates 5% of its profits to local charities and treats its employees well."
If you truly felt strongly about this, you would sell now.
Besides, while waiting for your current holdings to gain value, you
might be missing larger gains in your alternative investment.
And it is the time of year to look at capital gains/losses anyway.
Unfortunetly, proxy voting is a joke. The only real way
to 'vote' shares in most publicly-held companies is to sell.
"...There are ALWAYS ways to get your voice/opinion heard, you just have to take the time and effort to use them!..."
Most annual meetings feature a dissident or two. Usually they don't
accomplish much beyond their entertainment value.
"I'm waiting for a company who has been providing poor service to my friends and family to get back to the purchase price so I can dump it and invest those $ in a company who donates 5% of its profits to local charities and treats its employees well."
If you truly felt strongly about this, you would sell now.
Besides, while waiting for your current holdings to gain value, you
might be missing larger gains in your alternative investment.
And it is the time of year to look at capital gains/losses anyway.
SoWal Expert
I know, but I feel like if I take a loss on it they screw me over twice! 
As far as capital gains/losses it is nice to see that you tend not to lose when you choose companies based on their "ethics" and customer service.
Really should give the other company some more $ though.
As far as capital gains/losses it is nice to see that you tend not to lose when you choose companies based on their "ethics" and customer service.
Really should give the other company some more $ though.
Beach FanaticAuthor
SoWal Expert
Nice!
I need to double check some fund contents, but oddly enough, believe I do NOT own shares in any of the companies mentioned in that article.
I need to double check some fund contents, but oddly enough, believe I do NOT own shares in any of the companies mentioned in that article.
Beach Comber
Rancid,
I guess I don't understand how someone else's behavior (unethical or otherwise) justifies your behavior. I can probably give you as many unethical examples as you have. Regardless, I try to be ethical/ honest, yes, even fair, in all I do. Do I negotiate for the best deal? Absolutely.
Examples. Do I lie to say that I have 2 people offering me a better price when I don't. I certainly try not to. I am not perfect. Sometimes I slip. Would I lowball someone on a house that they were selling because they had to sell it. Yes, because it is either me or the bank. If he doesn't like my offer, then he can refuse it. Is it fair? I am not using deceit or pressure to close the deal. The value of the house might even go down further.
I'll go back to what I have said before. There is absolute truth (or from my perspective, Truth.) We should all act with honesty and integrity, no matter what.
I guess I don't understand how someone else's behavior (unethical or otherwise) justifies your behavior. I can probably give you as many unethical examples as you have. Regardless, I try to be ethical/ honest, yes, even fair, in all I do. Do I negotiate for the best deal? Absolutely.
Examples. Do I lie to say that I have 2 people offering me a better price when I don't. I certainly try not to. I am not perfect. Sometimes I slip. Would I lowball someone on a house that they were selling because they had to sell it. Yes, because it is either me or the bank. If he doesn't like my offer, then he can refuse it. Is it fair? I am not using deceit or pressure to close the deal. The value of the house might even go down further.
I'll go back to what I have said before. There is absolute truth (or from my perspective, Truth.) We should all act with honesty and integrity, no matter what.
Beach Fanatic
Having never written a N.S.F check, I have no experience with theMy Uncle sometimes is a pompous ass...are you qualified to comment on that? I could use the advice
fees, and so am not qualified to comment.
.Beach Fanatic
Rancid,
I guess I don't understand how someone else's behavior (unethical or otherwise) justifies your behavior. I can probably give you as many unethical examples as you have. Regardless, I try to be ethical/ honest, yes, even fair, in all I do. Do I negotiate for the best deal? Absolutely.
Examples. Do I lie to say that I have 2 people offering me a better price when I don't. I certainly try not to. I am not perfect. Sometimes I slip. Would I lowball someone on a house that they were selling because they had to sell it. Yes, because it is either me or the bank. If he doesn't like my offer, then he can refuse it. Is it fair? I am not using deceit or pressure to close the deal. The value of the house might even go down further.
I'll go back to what I have said before. There is absolute truth (or from my perspective, Truth.) We should all act with honesty and integrity, no matter what.
I agree with you on dealing with individuals. I too try to be fair and just in these dealings. If a plumber fixes something at my house and leaves some tools or forgets to cash the check, I would always tell him. On the other hand if my insurance company undercharged me on my premium, I am not saying a thing--their mistake.
I guess what I am talking about is more in dealing with big entities (businesses) that use there size and power to unfairly tip things in their favor. There are very little ethics or absolute truths to these companies.
I agree with all the nice things about truth and just not dealing with unethical parties but lets face it-- insurance, mortgage, banks, brokers, and other large corporations are part of our country and realistically cannot simply be avoided. Cap's comments about showing them by not buying their products or services is just some bogus philosophical dribble that looks good on a beach forum but in practice would be quite ridiculous.
SoWal Insider
The lender's shareholders may feel differently.what's that quote...you owe the bank 24k,can't pay you have a problem, or half of your town owes the bank 240,000,000, can't pay, they have a problem
SoWal Insider
There are no ethics in business. Ethics are simply terms dictated by the side with more power in a negotiation. Great example are bailouts for large corporations in the name of some public good while screwing individuals who don't have any power. How is it ethical to court borrowers ( ie. credit cards , mortgages, no interest teasers in retail ) when these companies have already calculated default rates , know exactly what percentage will default, and then set up situations where interest rates increase , penalties escalate and in the end make more money for themselves ?The government rather specifically spells out ethics regarding lending, what can and can not be charged. Lenders are not in the business to ruin the borrower, because it's not profitable.
It is all about making money not living up to deals. Pure and simple.
Beach Lover
I agree with you on dealing with individuals. I too try to be fair and just in these dealings. If a plumber fixes something at my house and leaves some tools or forgets to cash the check, I would always tell him. On the other hand if my insurance company undercharged me on my premium, I am not saying a thing--their mistake.
Would that be referred to as situational ethics?
flyguy
Beach Fanatic
I agree with you on dealing with individuals. I too try to be fair and just in these dealings. If a plumber fixes something at my house and leaves some tools or forgets to cash the check, I would always tell him. On the other hand if my insurance company undercharged me on my premium, I am not saying a thing--their mistake.
Would that be referred to as situational ethics?
flyguy
No. Business
SoWal Expert
Seriously, I know I am often living in overly optimistic Scooterbugland, but do you REALLY believe you HAVE to deal with crooks in order to survive? 
I'll definitely concede that certain things like health insurance etc. currently require you to find the lesser of the evils, but I have (perhaps naively) found that the majority of the time you CAN choose the person/company with ethics and profit from it.
Not situational ethics or whatever justification you come up with to help you sleep, but ethics. You CAN make quick money screwing over people, but it's really not an effective long term business model. Quick money is great, but disappears just as quickly as it's made, so I'd much rather have the satisfaction of a job well done and coworkers and employees who show up at my funeral to mourn a person they love rather than to make sure the S.O.B. is really dead or to get rid of some saliva!
I'll definitely concede that certain things like health insurance etc. currently require you to find the lesser of the evils, but I have (perhaps naively) found that the majority of the time you CAN choose the person/company with ethics and profit from it.
Not situational ethics or whatever justification you come up with to help you sleep, but ethics. You CAN make quick money screwing over people, but it's really not an effective long term business model. Quick money is great, but disappears just as quickly as it's made, so I'd much rather have the satisfaction of a job well done and coworkers and employees who show up at my funeral to mourn a person they love rather than to make sure the S.O.B. is really dead or to get rid of some saliva!
Beach Comber
Rancid, this hopefully will be my final comment on this. I truly feel sorry for you. I feel life and people are great but all of us are flawed. Most people and most corporations aren't out to screw you. Some are. I certainly can't put all "insurance, mortgage, banks, brokers and other large corporations" in that category. You are right. You can't avoid everybody. You do the best that you can and read the fine print. Almost all companies follow the guidelines that they publish or you can sue them. So let's look at some examples and what you might do.
Most insurance companies leave the state and your insurance rates go through the roof. Solution. You have to buy insurance. It's unfortunate. I don't know if they are taking advantage of me or assessing their risk but I probably will switch to another carrier when the rest come back into the market. I won't 1) produce a false claim or 2) not pay my insurance even if they forget to bill me. See, I try to be ethical. Their being nice guys, wildly profitable, ethical or unethical doesn't change my moral compass.
My bank says it wants more equity to continue my loan (true story, currently happening.) I don't lie about assets or threaten or borrow equity from other sources and not report it. Solution. I explain that I have not missed a payment. I show them my plan for the land that demonstrates the path that most likely gets them their money back. I go to other banks and look for a solution. I don't blame the bank for my decision to buy land several years ago. In this case the bank has given me a very minor concession. I still have work to do. I live to see another day but am in a situation that I don't like. But the successes that I have had to date are God's grace (not my brilliance) and thus, I accept the hard times too.
Is this being Pollyanna? Not at all. I am happy. I never have to think of what story I need to tell. My friends know this is how I act and they recommend me to others. Nonetheless, I drive a hard bargain and have high expectations. I have fired many people but actually keep in touch with some of them. I just try to be honest, I try to communicate fully so there are no misunderstandings and I persevere.
Most insurance companies leave the state and your insurance rates go through the roof. Solution. You have to buy insurance. It's unfortunate. I don't know if they are taking advantage of me or assessing their risk but I probably will switch to another carrier when the rest come back into the market. I won't 1) produce a false claim or 2) not pay my insurance even if they forget to bill me. See, I try to be ethical. Their being nice guys, wildly profitable, ethical or unethical doesn't change my moral compass.
My bank says it wants more equity to continue my loan (true story, currently happening.) I don't lie about assets or threaten or borrow equity from other sources and not report it. Solution. I explain that I have not missed a payment. I show them my plan for the land that demonstrates the path that most likely gets them their money back. I go to other banks and look for a solution. I don't blame the bank for my decision to buy land several years ago. In this case the bank has given me a very minor concession. I still have work to do. I live to see another day but am in a situation that I don't like. But the successes that I have had to date are God's grace (not my brilliance) and thus, I accept the hard times too.
Is this being Pollyanna? Not at all. I am happy. I never have to think of what story I need to tell. My friends know this is how I act and they recommend me to others. Nonetheless, I drive a hard bargain and have high expectations. I have fired many people but actually keep in touch with some of them. I just try to be honest, I try to communicate fully so there are no misunderstandings and I persevere.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Rancid, this hopefully will be my final comment on this. I truly feel sorry for you. I feel life and people are great but all of us are flawed. Most people and most corporations aren't out to screw you. Some are. I certainly can't put all "insurance, mortgage, banks, brokers and other large corporations" in that category. You are right. You can't avoid everybody. You do the best that you can and read the fine print. Almost all companies follow the guidelines that they publish or you can sue them. So let's look at some examples and what you might do.
Most insurance companies leave the state and your insurance rates go through the roof. Solution. You have to buy insurance. It's unfortunate. I don't know if they are taking advantage of me or assessing their risk but I probably will switch to another carrier when the rest come back into the market. I won't 1) produce a false claim or 2) not pay my insurance even if they forget to bill me. See, I try to be ethical. Their being nice guys, wildly profitable, ethical or unethical doesn't change my moral compass.
My bank says it wants more equity to continue my loan (true story, currently happening.) I don't lie about assets or threaten or borrow equity from other sources and not report it. Solution. I explain that I have not missed a payment. I show them my plan for the land that demonstrates the path that most likely gets them their money back. I go to other banks and look for a solution. I don't blame the bank for my decision to buy land several years ago. In this case the bank has given me a very minor concession. I still have work to do. I live to see another day but am in a situation that I don't like. But the successes that I have had to date are God's grace (not my brilliance) and thus, I accept the hard times too.
Is this being Pollyanna? Not at all. I am happy. I never have to think of what story I need to tell. My friends know this is how I act and they recommend me to others. Nonetheless, I drive a hard bargain and have high expectations. I have fired many people but actually keep in touch with some of them. I just try to be honest, I try to communicate fully so there are no misunderstandings and I persevere.
You sound like a nice guy and it is great that you are so honest in your dealings with banks, insurance companies and the like. I guess a am a little more cynical than you. I see way to much injustice in the whole process to buy into the made up ethics that businesses force onto individuals. I just don't see the ethics in maximizing profit at the expense of individuals. I don't see the ethics in using your clout to manipulate the political system and free market to your advantage.
Your idea of absolutes regarding right and wrong confuses me. You seem to apply it freely to individual's actions but then kind of gloss over it when talking about big business.
Lastly, you really don't need to feel sorry for me. I feel more sorry for you in that you are either extremely naive about the world or just don't care about the majority of regular people getting screwed by the elite minority that sets up these "ethics".
Check out Michael Moore's movie -Sicko. It might be an eye opener for you.
Beach FanaticAuthor
My Uncle sometimes is a pompous ass...are you qualified to comment on that? I could use the advice
Must run in the family?
Beach Fanatic
You sound like a nice guy and it is great that you are so honest in your dealings with banks, insurance companies and the like. I guess a am a little more cynical than you. I see way to much injustice in the whole process to buy into the made up ethics that businesses force onto individuals. I just don't see the ethics in maximizing profit at the expense of individuals. I don't see the ethics in using your clout to manipulate the political system and free market to your advantage.
Your idea of absolutes regarding right and wrong confuses me. You seem to apply it freely to individual's actions but then kind of gloss over it when talking about big business.
Lastly, you really don't need to feel sorry for me. I feel more sorry for you in that you are either extremely naive about the world or just don't care about the majority of regular people getting screwed by the elite minority that sets up these "ethics".
Check out Michael Moore's movie -Sicko. It might be an eye opener for you.
My original thought on that movie was it was "another" extreme left take on "another" issue by Michael Moore. What an eye opener. This movie really opened my eyes to the "insurance business". Very sad. Most folks think it is about health care or not having insurance. It's actually about folks that have insurance(or think they have). Conservatives/Liberals alike paying for something they really do not have. Get real sick or injured and you might just find out just how "ethical" your insurance company is.
Sorry to pull thread away. You all can have it back now...
Beach Comber
Since you addressed me, I respond. If you asked ANY of my friends they would laugh out loud if you said that you thought I was naive. I used to be more abrasive, ego-centric and sure of myself. I thought that I hit a home run until I realized that I was born on third base. My parents are still married, I went to good schools, I am in good health, I live in America, I have an Ok amount of intelligence and huge desire. These are all gifts that I had absolutely nothing to do with. Yes, I have applied myself and become relatively successful, but even that is a gift.
With that, I feel that I need to give back. That could be as simple as a word of encouragement or a check. It also is getting involved in volunteer opportunities that bring real satisfaction. Don't get me wrong. I still screw up a lot. I can reach in and grab your heart before you even know about it. First of all, there is no value in it. It doesn't make me feel better. At least after a few seconds, anyway. Second, I probably don't mean that much to you. If you did do me wrong, it probably wasn't me you were trying to screw but you were so self centered that you thought that you 'deserved' it. ( I am not trying to be judgmental but that sounds like you.) That's why I say that I feel sorry for you.
Now, I still can't figure out how the large companies potentially screwing you justifies your unethical behavior. Big business didn't come up with ethics, God did. As I have said before, there is Truth. I am not glossing over anything. You choose how you respond to everyone -big business or individuals. The only thing that I control is my behavior. Sometimes it is tough to do the right thing. Sometimes it is to your financial disadvantage. It doesn't make you a sucker. Nobody knowingly goes into deals to get snookered. But when you keep your word, no matter what, when you stand up for what is right, no matter what, it makes you a good person. You can't buy that.
With that, I feel that I need to give back. That could be as simple as a word of encouragement or a check. It also is getting involved in volunteer opportunities that bring real satisfaction. Don't get me wrong. I still screw up a lot. I can reach in and grab your heart before you even know about it. First of all, there is no value in it. It doesn't make me feel better. At least after a few seconds, anyway. Second, I probably don't mean that much to you. If you did do me wrong, it probably wasn't me you were trying to screw but you were so self centered that you thought that you 'deserved' it. ( I am not trying to be judgmental but that sounds like you.) That's why I say that I feel sorry for you.
Now, I still can't figure out how the large companies potentially screwing you justifies your unethical behavior. Big business didn't come up with ethics, God did. As I have said before, there is Truth. I am not glossing over anything. You choose how you respond to everyone -big business or individuals. The only thing that I control is my behavior. Sometimes it is tough to do the right thing. Sometimes it is to your financial disadvantage. It doesn't make you a sucker. Nobody knowingly goes into deals to get snookered. But when you keep your word, no matter what, when you stand up for what is right, no matter what, it makes you a good person. You can't buy that.
SoWal Expert
I thought that I hit a home run until I realized that I was born on third base. My parents are still married, I went to good schools, I am in good health, I live in America, I have an Ok amount of intelligence and huge desire. These are all gifts that I had absolutely nothing to do with. Yes, I have applied myself and become relatively successful, but even that is a gift.
But when you keep your word, no matter what, when you stand up for what is right, no matter what, it makes you a good person. You can't buy that.
Beach FanaticAuthor
"...Sometimes it is tough to do the right thing. Sometimes it is to your financial disadvantage. It doesn't make you a sucker. Nobody knowingly goes into deals to get snookered. But when you keep your word, no matter what, when you stand up for what is right, no matter what, it makes you a good person. You can't buy that...."
Agreed
Agreed
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