Hope they've got a lot of extra money in the budget for jails and lawsuits.
Arizona has passed legislation making it a crime to be an illegal immigrant and requiring police to check the immigration status of anyone they suspect is an illegal alien.
Hope they've got a lot of extra money in the budget for jails and lawsuits.
Hope they've got a lot of extra money in the budget for jails and lawsuits.
Replies
100
Banned
SoWal Insider
Ugh, could you shrink that down? Big pictures always ruin the formatting.
update - thanks Lucifer!
update - thanks Lucifer!
Edited
Beach Fanatic
I am at a point in my life that I don't accept talking points as common sense.
I believed for a long time that illegal immigration is a problem. But now I realize that I don't personally know why it's a problem-only that it is. So rather than having my head where the sun doesn't shine I would like to become educated.
Can someone pls tell me why illegal immigration is a problem. No rhetoric please (because there are laws that need to be followed, because it threatens our freedom, because it makes us unsafe- never forget 9-11, etc etc).
Why is this a problem?
Why is this high up on our list of issues?
I think even folks who know it is a problem stand to benefit from this exercise.
I believed for a long time that illegal immigration is a problem. But now I realize that I don't personally know why it's a problem-only that it is. So rather than having my head where the sun doesn't shine I would like to become educated.
Can someone pls tell me why illegal immigration is a problem. No rhetoric please (because there are laws that need to be followed, because it threatens our freedom, because it makes us unsafe- never forget 9-11, etc etc).
Why is this a problem?
Why is this high up on our list of issues?
I think even folks who know it is a problem stand to benefit from this exercise.
Banned
I am at a point in my life that I don't accept talking points as common sense.
I believed for a long time that illegal immigration is a problem. But now I realize that I don't personally know why it's a problem-only that it is. So rather than having my head where the sun doesn't shine I would like to become educated.
Can someone pls tell me why illegal immigration is a problem. No rhetoric please (because there are laws that need to be followed, because it threatens our freedom, because it makes us unsafe- never forget 9-11, etc etc).
Why is this a problem?
Why is this high up on our list of issues?
I think even folks who know it is a problem stand to benefit from this exercise.
The freedom, for which real brave folks from the heartland and their fathers throughout history when the hardships came and those who fought and sacrificed to keep those of us safe by the establishment of secure boundaries upon which this great nation of ours constantly struggles to provide for law abiding citizens who came to this country through legal means and the debt of gratitude and obligation we owe them in fairness to the ancestors instead of allowing her laws to be violated in the name of anarchy which has plagued so many other countries and led to the downfall of the civilizations upon which their governments show no pride and respect for the soil upon which the real Americans base their values.
Beach Fanatic
Geo, I know what you are trying to do and I'm not going into a litany of issues caused by illegal immigration. Cost to Americans paying their taxes is reason enough. You are bright enough and intelligent enough to find the answers for yourself. Do so! There is plenty of information out there on illegal immigration cause and effect.
Edited
SoWal Insider
I am at a point in my life that I don't accept talking points as common sense.
I believed for a long time that illegal immigration is a problem. But now I realize that I don't personally know why it's a problem-only that it is. So rather than having my head where the sun doesn't shine I would like to become educated.
Can someone pls tell me why illegal immigration is a problem. No rhetoric please (because there are laws that need to be followed, because it threatens our freedom, because it makes us unsafe- never forget 9-11, etc etc).
Why is this a problem?
Why is this high up on our list of issues?
I think even folks who know it is a problem stand to benefit from this exercise.
Well first, border security, independent of illegal imigration, is a top issue. It's not hard to figure out why, I'm sure you understand Geo.
The biggest issue is taxes and cost of services rendered, illegals don't pay taxes but use the services. That's pretty much it.
In Florida it's not a big deal, we generate state tax revenue from consumption taxes, so we fair just fine regardless. The federal government and other states however don't. (Honestly I could care less about this.)
Down the road, it might become increasing important once Obamacare kicks in. These folks will not be paying for healthcare through the mandate, but will be using medical services. So getting them on the I.R.S.'s books makes sure they pay their fair share. (Although, at the typical income levels of migrant workers, they would probably stand to get a check back, so I'm not sure how big an issue this will be, illegals may end up saving us money!)
Also there's the fairness factor - legal immigrants jump through hoops and spend years working toward citizenship. There's no reason why someone here illegally should be given special treatment.
Last but not least - voting. 15 million people have the ability to sway elections.
Edited
SoWal Insider
Rubio statement:
Our legal immigration system must continue to welcome those who seek to embrace America’s blessings and abide by the legal and orderly system that is in place. The American people have every right to expect the federal government to secure our borders and prevent illegal immigration. It has become all too easy for some in Washington to ignore the desperation and urgency of those like the citizens of Arizona who are disproportionately wrestling with this problem as well as the violence, drug trafficking and lawlessness that spills over from across the border.
States certainly have the right to enact policies to protect their citizens, but Arizona’s policy shows the difficulty and limitations of states trying to act piecemeal to solve what is a serious federal problem. From what I have read in news reports, I do have concerns about this legislation. While I don’t believe Arizona’s policy was based on anything other than trying to get a handle on our broken borders, I think aspects of the law, especially that dealing with ‘reasonable suspicion,’ are going to put our law enforcement officers in an incredibly difficult position. It could also unreasonably single out people who are here legally, including many American citizens. Throughout American history and throughout this administration we have seen that when government is given an inch it takes a mile.
I hope Congress and the Obama Administration will use the Arizona legislation not as an excuse to try and jam through amnesty legislation, but to finally act on border states’ requests for help with security and fix the things about our immigration system that can be fixed right now – securing the border, reforming the visa and entry process, and cracking down on employers who exploit illegal immigrants.
Beach Fanatic
The freedom, for which real brave folks from the heartland and their fathers throughout history when the hardships came and those who fought and sacrificed to keep those of us safe by the establishment of secure boundaries upon which this great nation of ours constantly struggles to provide for law abiding citizens who came to this country through legal means and the debt of gratitude and obligation we owe them in fairness to the ancestors instead of allowing her laws to be violated in the name of anarchy which has plagued so many other countries and led to the downfall of the civilizations upon which their governments show no pride and respect for the soil upon which the real Americans base their values.
I asked to be spared rhetoric. You provided a 123 word sentence of just that.
Here is my one sentence response-
Rhetoric works both ways, you could insist that we are a nation of immigrants and that by treating immigrants today so badly we are dishonoring every one of our ancestors who arrived by boat before us as well as the offspring who have benefited from their journey and their hard work which made America the Beautiful the proud land it is today.
Of course, mine was just as much BS as yours.
Beach Fanatic
Geo, I know what you are trying to do and I'm not going into a litany of issues caused by illegal immigration. Cost to Americans paying their taxes is reason enough. You are bright enough and intelligent enough to find the answers for yourself. Do so! There is plenty of information out there on illegal immigration cause and effect.
It's no secret what I am trying to do. But in case you guessed wrong-
I am flirting with the idea that illegal immigration isn't that big a problem. I am challenging the universal notion that is. In the process I might discover that it really is a big problem.
So far, the only real problem I am hearing that illegal immigrants are causing is related to money- specifically tax dollars.
Seems to me it would make more sense to implement a policy that provides some sort of status to illegals that allows for them to work and pay taxes and that steers them in the right direction toward the long road to citizenship.
This would solve our illegal immigrant "problem" moreso than the solution in Arizona. And it would help pay for our children's future which the last two administrations have mortgaged.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
It's times like this I'm glad we elected a constitutional lawyer as President. At least we have someone at the top who understands.
Beach Fanatic
Illegal just doesn't seem politically correct anymore. bring em if they truly intend to make our Country better.
SoWal Insider
It's no secret what I am trying to do. But in case you guessed wrong-
I am flirting with the idea that illegal immigration isn't that big a problem. I am challenging the universal notion that is. In the process I might discover that it really is a big problem.
So far, the only real problem I am hearing that illegal immigrants are causing is related to money- specifically tax dollars.
Obamacare is pushing this to the fore front. 15 million people enjoying completely free healthcare would be a huge drain our the federal government's revenue, and on the healthcare infrastructure we currently have in place.
?The immigration problem is a very difficult problem, and there?s no easy answer to it. At the time my parents came, the U.S. had completely free immigration, people coming in from all over the world. You can have that, and we should have it, if you did not have a welfare state. If you have a welfare state, and you have welfare arrangements, so that people come, for not necessarily the same reason our grandparents did, because they saw better opportunity here, but if they come to feed on the state as it were, you can not have completely free immigration. In principal I?d like to see free immigration, but you can?t have it with a welfare state.?
- Friedman
Seems to me it would make more sense to implement a policy that provides some sort of status to illegals that allows for them to work and pay taxes and that steers them in the right direction toward the long road to citizenship.
This would solve our illegal immigrant "problem" moreso than the solution in Arizona. And it would help pay for our children's future which the last two administrations have mortgaged.
That's what I would like to see. Which brings us back to the fight we fought back when George Bush proposed just such a policy. Democrats will likely propose something similar if they ever get legislation put together. I'm not optimistic that it will pass however.
Beach Fanatic
Hi Shopper, glad to see we agree on the tax fix.
I'm not with you however on the first part of your reply. First and foremost, I don't know who Friedman is so I do not believe that we are living in a welfare state because he says so.
Regarding obama's healthcare plan- wouldn't it be simple to say that only citizens would qualify for any benefits. This would serve as further motivation for illegals to start paying taxes and go through the process of becoming citizens.
Let's say hypothetically it took them 7 years from start to finish. That would be 7 years of them paying into the system before they were eligible for any healthcare benefits.
Again, this seems like a more productive solution than Arizona's.
I'm not with you however on the first part of your reply. First and foremost, I don't know who Friedman is so I do not believe that we are living in a welfare state because he says so.
Regarding obama's healthcare plan- wouldn't it be simple to say that only citizens would qualify for any benefits. This would serve as further motivation for illegals to start paying taxes and go through the process of becoming citizens.
Let's say hypothetically it took them 7 years from start to finish. That would be 7 years of them paying into the system before they were eligible for any healthcare benefits.
Again, this seems like a more productive solution than Arizona's.
SoWal Insider
Hi Shopper, glad to see we agree on the tax fix.
I'm not with you however on the first part of your reply. First and foremost, I don't know who Friedman is so I do not believe that we are living in a welfare state because he says so.
Milton Freidman - Milton Friedman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Regarding obama's healthcare plan- wouldn't it be simple to say that only citizens would qualify for any benefits. This would serve as further motivation for illegals to start paying taxes and go through the process of becoming citizens.
Let's say hypothetically it took them 7 years from start to finish. That would be 7 years of them paying into the system before they were eligible for any healthcare benefits.
Again, this seems like a more productive solution than Arizona's.
Legal immigrants that pay taxes or collect tax credits are part of the system. Illegal immigrants are a drain on the system, just as they are today. Hence the need to solve the immigration problem. As I stated previously, I think legal low income migrant workers will end up costing us more than they save us. This is what Freidman spoke of. When you have a welfare state comprised of free services for "less productive" members of society, you tend to attract the wrong kind of immigrant. This is why social democracies in Europe have closed borders and heavily restricted immigration policy. Progressives are pushing the U.S. in this direction.
As far as Arizon is concerned, again, the federal government isn't doing much to solve the border problem currently. Try and explain why the Arizona law (which is supposed to act as a deterrent) should be repealed to the families of people who have been killed by illegals looking for safe travel paths across the border.
Beach Fanatic
Shopper,
you are using emotional talking points. People don't come here for free healthcare- they could get that in many of the countries they are leaving. And they don't come here to kill people. They come here for an opportunity to work hard and be productive members of a free society.
I have met many immigrants in my travels to 43 states. They all fell into 2 categories:
-hard working poor who took on the jobs that no one else here really wanted
-hard working entrepreneur types who started out working in jobs that no one wanted, saved, started a business and navigated into and past the middle class
The fact of the matter is that the majority of the welfare cases of whom you speak are white people born here.
Latinos and Canadians don't try to come here to kill people, to get food stamps or to get healthcare.
you are using emotional talking points. People don't come here for free healthcare- they could get that in many of the countries they are leaving. And they don't come here to kill people. They come here for an opportunity to work hard and be productive members of a free society.
I have met many immigrants in my travels to 43 states. They all fell into 2 categories:
-hard working poor who took on the jobs that no one else here really wanted
-hard working entrepreneur types who started out working in jobs that no one wanted, saved, started a business and navigated into and past the middle class
The fact of the matter is that the majority of the welfare cases of whom you speak are white people born here.
Latinos and Canadians don't try to come here to kill people, to get food stamps or to get healthcare.
SoWal Insider
Shopper,
you are using emotional talking points. People don't come here for free healthcare- they could get that in many of the countries they are leaving. And they don't come here to kill people. They come here for an opportunity to work hard and be productive members of a free society.
I have met many immigrants in my travels to 43 states. They all fell into 2 categories:
-hard working poor who took on the jobs that no one else here really wanted
-hard working entrepreneur types who started out working in jobs that no one wanted, saved, started a business and navigated into and past the middle class
The fact of the matter is that the majority of the welfare cases of whom you speak are white people born here.
Latinos and Canadians don't try to come here to kill people, to get food stamps or to get healthcare.
You're arguing against human nature and real statistics my friend, that's an argument you're going to lose. European immigration policy serves as proof positive of the theory. If you want to ignore this, feel free, but you'll be doing the country a disservice in doing so. I will not be ignoring it, because it's a real issue.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
This is a situation not unlike the off shore drilling concerns for this area. Those that live here and visit frequently are very concerned about the effects off shore drilling. Those that don't live here or even visit, are not so concerned. You have to live it sometimes to know the effects and concerns.
Same with illegal immigrants. Until you have been affected by the gangs, the crime such as hit and run DUIs, the affect on the local school system, the local ERs, the total disregard to local ordiances such as occupany for a single family dwelling, taxes are the least of the problems in our area.
I think changes need to be made, not sure this new legistation is the way to do it, I think the businesses that willingly employ illegals are a serious concern and I do think there needs to be changes to the system for becoming legal.
And Yes there are always exceptions, I have met some that are here to try to work and get a better life. But many were criminals in Mexico and now are criminals here.
Now we have Latino gangs fighting with other gangs and innocent children being killed in drive by shootings.
Same with illegal immigrants. Until you have been affected by the gangs, the crime such as hit and run DUIs, the affect on the local school system, the local ERs, the total disregard to local ordiances such as occupany for a single family dwelling, taxes are the least of the problems in our area.
I think changes need to be made, not sure this new legistation is the way to do it, I think the businesses that willingly employ illegals are a serious concern and I do think there needs to be changes to the system for becoming legal.
And Yes there are always exceptions, I have met some that are here to try to work and get a better life. But many were criminals in Mexico and now are criminals here.
Now we have Latino gangs fighting with other gangs and innocent children being killed in drive by shootings.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
This is a situation not unlike the off shore drilling concerns for this area. Those that live here and visit frequently are very concerned about the effects off shore drilling. Those that don't live here or even visit, are not so concerned. You have to live it sometimes to know the effects and concerns.
Same with illegal immigrants. Until you have been affected by the gangs, the crime such as hit and run DUIs, the affect on the local school system, the local ERs, the total disregard to local ordiances such as occupany for a single family dwelling, taxes are the least of the problems in our area.
I think changes need to be made, not sure this new legistation is the way to do it, I think the businesses that willingly employ illegals are a serious concern and I do think there needs to be chances to the system for becoming legal.
I agree - Seems to me that just by cracking down on the employers who hire the illegals we would take care of a big part of the problem. No job = no money = no reason to come in the first place. I keep wondering if my simplistic mind is missing something
I also agree about having to live something in order to know the effects and concerns. I have a friend that got transferred to Phoenix because of her husband's job. She literally lived in fear for 2 years before they were able to get back to Kentucky. She will never go back.
SoWal ExpertAuthor
Are criminals/gangs there because illegal immigrants are there, or because of drugs?
I know that it is a growing problem, but I don't know the real causes of the problem. I do know that "illegals" get blamed for a lot of things they don't necessarily do.
I would certainly support stepping up enforcement, changes to immigration law, AND immediately and permanently deporting anyone convicted of a major/violent crime.
As far as occupancies, my grandparents raised a family of 9 in a house the size of many Sowal vacation home great rooms or garages, so much of it is perspective.
I know that it is a growing problem, but I don't know the real causes of the problem. I do know that "illegals" get blamed for a lot of things they don't necessarily do.
I would certainly support stepping up enforcement, changes to immigration law, AND immediately and permanently deporting anyone convicted of a major/violent crime.
As far as occupancies, my grandparents raised a family of 9 in a house the size of many Sowal vacation home great rooms or garages, so much of it is perspective.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Shopper,
Here's the rub. I could present to you statistics and outcomes that show that a single payer healthcare system works in European countries. I could share with you statistics and data that prove a minimum drinking age is useless and that marijuana can be legalized and taxed (just to name a few) with positive outcomes under a European model.
And odds are you would ignore these and say what is true there is not automatically true here because too many variables aren't factored in.
So it shouldn't be foreign to you that I don't weigh Freidman's *opinion* heavier than either of ours.
The generalizations about human nature and telling me that my disagreement with you and Friedman on this issue is a disservice to our country- well, that's not like you.
Here's the rub. I could present to you statistics and outcomes that show that a single payer healthcare system works in European countries. I could share with you statistics and data that prove a minimum drinking age is useless and that marijuana can be legalized and taxed (just to name a few) with positive outcomes under a European model.
And odds are you would ignore these and say what is true there is not automatically true here because too many variables aren't factored in.
So it shouldn't be foreign to you that I don't weigh Freidman's *opinion* heavier than either of ours.
The generalizations about human nature and telling me that my disagreement with you and Friedman on this issue is a disservice to our country- well, that's not like you.
Beach Fanatic
Arizona has passed legislation making it a crime to be an illegal immigrant and requiring police to check the immigration status of anyone they suspect is an illegal alien.How about they just stop anyone who looks like they may not have a driver's license or auto insurance? Does this give officers the ability to "legally" stop anyone for looking like an illegal immigrant, while really searching for drugs?
Hope they've got a lot of extra money in the budget for jails and lawsuits.
This has to be unconstitutional. Illegal immigrants come in all shapes, colors, and nationalities.
Beach Fanatic
Are criminals/gangs there because illegal immigrants are there, or because of drugs?
I know that it is a growing problem, but I don't know the real causes of the problem. I do know that "illegals" get blamed for a lot of things they don't necessarily do.
I would certainly support stepping up enforcement, changes to immigration law, AND immediately and permanently deporting anyone convicted of a major/violent crime.
As far as occupancies, my grandparents raised a family of 9 in a house the size of many Sowal vacation home great rooms or garages, so much of it is perspective.
The majority of Latino gang members here were in gangs in Mexico and have simply relocated. They have however recruited other illegals that were not criminals before coming here because right now the housing market which most worked in has declined and they need money. Actually in Memphis, drugs is not as much a problem with some of the illegals as stolen property, especially vehicles, unless they are in a gang. Also the gang leaders promise protection for newly arrived illegals and supply them with fake IDs, and Driver's licenses and even Social Security cards. It becomes very tempting for someone that is here illegaly with no friends or support system, no job and no credidentials to turn to these gangs as a type of family.
Scooter, your grandparents raised a family of 9, not housed 9 adult males with 9 vehicles in a house with three bedrooms and parking for 2 or maybe 3 cars, there is a difference.
We live in a very diverse area of Memphis. We have a wonderful Vietnamese family next door that has 5 children but again only two cars.
We have a wonderful back yard Afro-American family with 6 kids but again only two adults and two cars.
A very sweet couple from the Dominican Republic that is becoming legal citizens with one car and 4 children and several well behaved dogs.
And we have a 3 bedroom house down the street with 9 adult Latinos, with 9 cars and then on weekends their friends which swells to about 20 cars and extremely loud partying, drugs and public drunkeness with shooting of guns and pit bulls that run lose and kill any animal it meets.
We know these are illegals because at times the police have actually caught them doing drugs and arrested a few. Only for those few to be replaced very quickly with some new arrivals.
I have lived here in this same spot for over 28 years and I am not going to move out because of them. That does not solve the problem it simply means we gave in and ran away.
Edited
Banned
Shopper,
you are using emotional talking points. People don't come here for free healthcare- they could get that in many of the countries they are leaving. And they don't come here to kill people. They come here for an opportunity to work hard and be productive members of a free society.
I have met many immigrants in my travels to 43 states. They all fell into 2 categories:
-hard working poor who took on the jobs that no one else here really wanted
-hard working entrepreneur types who started out working in jobs that no one wanted, saved, started a business and navigated into and past the middle class
The fact of the matter is that the majority of the welfare cases of whom you speak are white people born here.
Latinos and Canadians don't try to come here to kill people, to get food stamps or to get healthcare.
When an illegal does happen to kill somebody either intentionally or accidently, a big fallacy arises that "if only we properly enforced our immigration laws, this never would have happened." Sure it would, it happens all the time with legal residents. You don't stop murder or DUI manslaughter by going after illegals, you do it by going after killers and drunk drivers. Illegal aliens, jaywalkers, murderers, shoplifters, drunk driving are all law enforcement issues. Law enforcement with its limited resources should place priority on the most serious issues. In and of itself, illegal immigration is not one of them. Busting illegals for loitering is going to do nothing to bring down the rate of violent crime. If resources are available, then fine, go after the petty criminals.
Beach Fanatic
...and if the companies and corporations hiring the undocumented workers were fined and stopped; then, the number of people coming here through illegal means would certainly be affected.
Beach Fanatic
How about they just stop anyone who looks like they may not have a driver's license or auto insurance? Does this give officers the ability to "legally" stop anyone for looking like an illegal immigrant, while really searching for drugs?
This has to be unconstitutional. Illegal immigrants come in all shapes, colors, and nationalities.
I am sure it is unconstitutional but this is certainly nothing new. People doing nothing get stopped all the time by law enforcement, for simply being in the wrong area at the wrong time and looking out of place.
I have had it happend to me in SoWal, however after I explained my situation I was free to go.
I am also sure that at certain times of the night just being out is likely to get someone stopped and questioned in case they might be a DUI.
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