Jesus Would Have Been in Favor of Healthcare Reform.

is fear a pre-existing condition of being stupid?

I'm confused by your statement AlfaCrab. I've read the Bible and thought that Jesus was against governmental control of the people, which is what the 2000+ page HealthCare/Christmas Tree ornament Bill is all about -- more governmental control. Interstingly, my Bibles have about half the number of pages as this bill) Jesus would be a fan of giving to the less fortunate, but government seems to have stepped in and forced that charity at the end of a gun. Don't think so, try not paying the IRS or this required payment to Uncle Sam and see if they don't take you with force and hold you in prison.

If you think healthcare is a right, does that mean that you can demand a doctor to treat you? If so, how many hours of their lives do they owe you? Does a farmer also owe you food? Does a builder owe you shelter? Where do you draw the line between a right and a priviledge, and where do you draw a line with government. The truth is that if we didn't have to pay taxes to support the government, we would have plenty of money which we could use to help the less fortunate, as Jesus asked. The only reason why Jesus reportedly said, "give unto Caesar, that which is Caesar's," is from fear that many people were out to stop him, and for Jesus to encourage people not to pay taxes would have been an instant death sentence by law. Jesus was too smart for their tricks.

I think that if Jesus were physically here today, he would still be anti-government, though would still be in favor of helping others who are less fortunate.

Give me a break.

First things first. If Jesus were here we would want or need for nothing! We can all agree reform needs to happen but not the way it is currently being handled. I mean the corruption and buy offs are disgusting. These guys "Congress" are just plain criminals "the polls prove it with approvals hovering around 19%" and they are walking all over our Constitution with the way they plan to pass this thing. Reconciliation and Deem were never meant or have been used to pass such large social legislation! Besides if it were such a great bill then why not just vote on the darn thing. The Emperor isn't wearing any clothes and absolute power corrupts absolutely! Obama is a one termer and suffers from a bad attitude after this failure and the Nov elections he will be a lame duck and back in campaign mode. Wake up America!

I'm going to go ahead and embrace this thing. The end result does in fact justify the means. I look forward to a day, in the not so distant future, when American no longer has it's triple-A rating. That's when the playing field gets leveled.

While Jesus was anti-government, he was also anti-organized religion. I think he would be proud that the naysayers are losing in their opposition.

Jesus was a great teacher and his best teachings were love, respect, and charity. I think he would embrace this, understanding that while not perfect it's better than nothing. Similar to wanting cake, receiving bread, and understanding that the bread is better than starving.

I'm going to go ahead and embrace this thing. The end result does in fact justify the means. I look forward to a day, in the not so distant future, when American no longer has it's triple-A rating. That's when the playing field gets leveled.

You may need to slow down on the Tini's....

America HASN'T had a triple-A rating for over a decade.....

America ranks poorly in healthcare, technology, education.

America ranks strongly in violent crime and debt to China.....who by the way is now a triple-A country.....

Reconciliation and Deem were never meant or have been used to pass such large social legislation!


BrentS

Did you feel the same way when the Repubs used these tactics to push through their agenda's?

Congress is presently at its lowest approval rating in its history - hovering between 18 and 19%. I'd say this is thin ice. I agree that there is much corruption going on right now. And, the House might look at Reconcilation and Deem as a way to hold onto their political positions. That's laughable. BLOOD BATH!

While Jesus was anti-government, he was also anti-organized religion. I think he would be proud that the naysayers are losing in their opposition.

Jesus was a great teacher and his best teachings were love, respect, and charity. I think he would embrace this, understanding that while not perfect it's better than nothing. Similar to wanting cake, receiving bread, and understanding that the bread is better than starving.

all greats points swgb. but was Jesus really anti-government? I am no bible expert but from what little I recall, it seems he taught us all to treat one another fairly, whether a government worker or not. I believe he also said: "give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God."

I don't know what Jesus would say about health care. but I tend to think he would look favorably upon a great country which used its great resources to provide good health care to all its citizens. why not?

Reconciliation and Deem were never meant or have been used to pass such large social legislation!


BrentS

Did you feel the same way when the Repubs used these tactics to push through their agenda's?

Yea, I did actually I think both parties are criminals as mentioned above. We need a third and forth party to break up this power hungary bunch of thief's. You really should open your mind some more and realize there are more political philosophies than just Republican and Democrats you have simply fallen into the trap thees two parties have set on both side of any political argument. Before these two dominate parties existed there were Democrat Republicans, Federalist, Whigs etc. Thomas Jefferson said himself that a revolution should occur every 100 yrs to balance power. We as Americans must get past the two party philosophy and think bigger! Pick up a history book or the Constitution and realize what our country was founded on and the possibilities that exist with the freedom we have been given.

incredible as it may seem, in the midst of economic deprivation, as i travel about our fair city, i am presented with the fact that the newest and nicest buildings to be found are medical facilities. most of our city's major hospitals are in constant states of expansion. outpatient facilities are plentiful and none too few. beyond the healthcare industry, construction is nada. where do you suppose the money originates to frenetically build in the midst of a monstrous recession?

Yea, I did actually I think both parties are criminals as mentioned above. We need a third and forth party to break up this power hungary bunch of thief's. You really should open your mind some more and realize there are more political philosophies than just Republican and Democrats you have simply fallen into the trap thees two parties have set on both side of any political argument. Before these two dominate parties existed there were Democrat Republicans, Federalist, Whigs etc. Thomas Jefferson said himself that a revolution should occur every 100 yrs to balance power. We as Americans must get past the two party philosophy and think bigger! Pick up a history book or the Constitution and realize what our country was founded on and the possibilities that exist with the freedom we have been given.

there is no difference in the parties. that's the trap you fail to realize. this country is run by a small group of "interests".

I'm confused by your statement AlfaCrab. I've read the Bible and thought that Jesus was against governmental control of the people, which is what the 2000+ page HealthCare/Christmas Tree ornament Bill is all about -- more governmental control. Interstingly, my Bibles have about half the number of pages as this bill) Jesus would be a fan of giving to the less fortunate, but government seems to have stepped in and forced that charity at the end of a gun. Don't think so, try not paying the IRS or this required payment to Uncle Sam and see if they don't take you with force and hold you in prison.

If you think healthcare is a right, does that mean that you can demand a doctor to treat you? If so, how many hours of their lives do they owe you? Does a farmer also owe you food? Does a builder owe you shelter? Where do you draw the line between a right and a priviledge, and where do you draw a line with government. The truth is that if we didn't have to pay taxes to support the government, we would have plenty of money which we could use to help the less fortunate, as Jesus asked. The only reason why Jesus reportedly said, "give unto Caesar, that which is Caesar's," is from fear that many people were out to stop him, and for Jesus to encourage people not to pay taxes would have been an instant death sentence by law. Jesus was too smart for their tricks.

I think that if Jesus were physically here today, he would still be anti-government, though would still be in favor of helping others who are less fortunate.

your analogies are poor unless you believe that if you cannot pay a physician, then you deserve to suffer or die. if you know that bible as you say you do, you would know jesusguy was never concerned about his longevity. as far as your assertions that government can function without taxes, your are entering the realm of rationalizations espoused by full blown, delusional reprobates who would enjoy the blessings of our country without footing the bill.

Good point. It's amazing how our Country survived until the early 1900's without a federal income tax on the people.

Why isn't job creation Obama's #1 priority. The next item on his agenda is Immigration reform not jobs. I truly believe our Country is in a serious downward spiral. Without jobs everything stops.

all greats points swgb. but was Jesus really anti-government? I am no bible expert but from what little I recall, it seems he taught us all to treat one another fairly, whether a government worker or not. I believe he also said: "give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God."

I don't know what Jesus would say about health care. but I tend to think he would look favorably upon a great country which used its great resources to provide good health care to all its citizens. why not?

I'm betting if FBI agents or Federal troops nailed you to a cross you'd be pretty anti-government.

Good point. It's amazing how our Country survived until the early 1900's without a federal income tax on the people.

Why isn't job creation Obama's #1 priority. The next item on his agenda is Immigration reform not jobs. I truly believe our Country is in a serious downward spiral. Without jobs everything stops.

Yeah, the government should be building roads, infrastructure, running a militia, and everything else through some magical revenue stream. :roll:

IIRC the only true way for the government to create jobs is to increase spending and programs, which ultimately increases taxes. You can argue tax cuts for small business until you're blue in the face, but cutting a small business's taxes by $5,000 a year doesn't create a job.

Why isn't job creation Obama's #1 priority. The next item on his agenda is Immigration reform not jobs. I truly believe our Country is in a serious downward spiral. Without jobs everything stops.

There was a time when conservatives didn't believe that the government created jobs, but of course now that health care might finally get reformed the number one priority should be government creating jobs.

I kinda think that Jesus would be teaching people how to fish.

I kinda think that Jesus would be teaching people how to fish.

Or the nifty trick of raising the dead or vanquishing Mycobacterium leprae with the wave of a hand.

I'm betting if FBI agents or Federal troops nailed you to a cross you'd be pretty anti-government.

me? you bet.

Jesus kind of put himself apart from govt, which is what pissed 'em off. but I don't think he was anti-govt or anti-anything. His message was positive - and it was all about love and doing unto others. His last words were to ask God to forgive the ones who nailed him to that cross. I don't think he gave govt much thought. His focus was on people, helping, healing and teaching the people.

I guess you could say Jesus used the govt to get them to do the dirty work of nailing him to a cross. It was his mission. Mission accomplished.

Govt can do good work too. Our govt has done great work over the years and I believe it will conitnue to do so.

I can hardly watch this debate unfold though - the ugliness of the more extreme groups against health care is more than I can stomach.

Hey Ya'll, a few things:

One- I'm not a socialist and whether you support him or not, neither is Barack Obama.

Two- What's all this "if Jesus was around he'd be for or against this" talk?
I'm here and if you want to know how I stood on issues back in the day or what I think about stuff now- why not just ask?

Peace.

Tootsie, I guess our impressions of Jesus' love and peace for all depends on which of the Gospels you believe the most. They vary just enough to show some disagreement with love and peace for all. I think it is in Luke where Jesus supposedly caused havoc as he entered the once-sacred house of worship. I believe there is also reference in one of the Gospels where Jesus readies his disciples at the Last Supper to sell everything they have in order to acquire swords for the approaching battle. Jesus was also very critical of the hypocrites running the churches and the government. Jesus is reported as saying "... give unto Caesar...," but that was because the Pharisees were trying to have him legally killed by catching him off-guard with their public questioning of whether or not people should pay their taxes. He knew the tax collectors were shysters, just as we all know that many of our politicians are shysters.

Back to the original post, just how is social security working for you? I'm not expecting to see one penny of what I have paid in over time, as the gov't has sucked it dry.

IIRC the only true way for the government to create jobs is to increase spending and programs, which ultimately increases taxes. You can argue tax cuts for small business until you're blue in the face, but cutting a small business's taxes by $5,000 a year doesn't create a job.

The only way government can have a positive impact on employment, outside of direct hiring, is by putting more money in the pockets of consumers, or building infrastructure that facilitates commerce. Big government programs have very little effect, and in fact, can have a net negative as the cost must be siphoned off the private sector in order to pay for them.

Tootsie, I guess our impressions of Jesus' love and peace for all depends on which of the Gospels you believe the most. They vary just enough to show some disagreement with love and peace for all. I think it is in Luke where Jesus supposedly caused havoc as he entered the once-sacred house of worship. I believe there is also reference in one of the Gospels where Jesus readies his disciples at the Last Supper to sell everything they have in order to acquire swords for the approaching battle.

I know. I refuse to go that far into using biblical stories to support any argument in real life. but its an interesting argument nonetheless.

my feeling of Jesus is just this: love your neighbor. give to your neighbor. help your neighbor. any person in need is worthy of your help - that person is Jesus.

The only way government can have a positive impact on employment, outside of direct hiring, is by putting more money in the pockets of consumers, or building infrastructure that facilitates commerce. Big government programs have very little effect, and in fact, can have a net negative as the cost must be siphoned off the private sector in order to pay for them.

So you're for stimulus money?

So you're for stimulus money?

During economic downturns, I have no problems with the federal government helping out states to keep layoffs to a minimum, cutting taxes temporarily to put more money in people's pockets, or even short term boosts in spending on "shovel ready" infrastructure.

The porkulus had some good in it, about 200 million was in tax cuts for example (you can thank the reps for that, dems didn't want it), and about 150 million was spent on shovel ready projects. We also had the Bush refund checks to the tune of about 250 million a year and a half ago. All fairly good ways to help keep the bad from becoming worse.

Generally though, most of the porkulus was made up of wasted make-work and special interests. It also had a lot of sleezy underhanded "reforms" in it no one noticed, like undoing key components of Clinton's Welfare reform. As far as the spending part goes, it wasn't a very efficient bill, which is unfortunate considering how much it'll end up costing us once we total up the base plus interest. "Never waste a good crisis"...