http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009890
Here is a former terrorist talking about the dangers of appeasement.
The Trouble With Islam
Sadly, mainstream Muslim teaching accepts and promotes violence.
BY TAWFIK HAMID
Tuesday, April 3, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT
Not many years ago the brilliant Orientalist, Bernard Lewis, published a short history of the Islamic world's decline, entitled "What Went Wrong?" Astonishingly, there was, among many Western "progressives," a vocal dislike for the title. It is a false premise, these critics protested. They ignored Mr. Lewis's implicit statement that things have been, or could be, right.
But indeed, there is much that is clearly wrong with the Islamic world. Women are stoned to death and undergo clitorectomies. Gays hang from the gallows under the approving eyes of the proponents of Shariah, the legal code of Islam. Sunni and Shia massacre each other daily in Iraq. Palestinian mothers teach 3-year-old boys and girls the ideal of martyrdom. One would expect the orthodox Islamic establishment to evade or dismiss these complaints, but less happily, the non-Muslim priests of enlightenment in the West have come, actively and passively, to the Islamists' defense.
These "progressives" frequently cite the need to examine "root causes." In this they are correct: Terrorism is only the manifestation of a disease and not the disease itself. But the root-causes are quite different from what they think. As a former member of Jemaah Islamiya, a group led by al Qaeda's second in command, Ayman al-Zawahiri, I know firsthand that the inhumane teaching in Islamist ideology can transform a young, benevolent mind into that of a terrorist. Without confronting the ideological roots of radical Islam it will be impossible to combat it. While there are many ideological "rootlets" of Islamism, the main tap root has a name--Salafism, or Salafi Islam, a violent, ultra-conservative version of the religion.
It is vital to grasp that traditional and even mainstream Islamic teaching accepts and promotes violence. Shariah, for example, allows apostates to be killed, permits beating women to discipline them, seeks to subjugate non-Muslims to Islam as dhimmis and justifies declaring war to do so. It exhorts good Muslims to exterminate the Jews before the "end of days." The near deafening silence of the Muslim majority against these barbaric practices is evidence enough that there is something fundamentally wrong.
The grave predicament we face in the Islamic world is the virtual lack of approved, theologically rigorous interpretations of Islam that clearly challenge the abusive aspects of Shariah. Unlike Salafism, more liberal branches of Islam, such as Sufism, typically do not provide the essential theological base to nullify the cruel proclamations of their Salafist counterparts. And so, for more than 20 years I have been developing and working to establish a theologically-rigorous Islam that teaches peace.
Yet it is ironic and discouraging that many non-Muslim, Western intellectuals--who unceasingly claim to support human rights--have become obstacles to reforming Islam. Political correctness among Westerners obstructs unambiguous criticism of Shariah's inhumanity. They find socioeconomic or political excuses for Islamist terrorism such as poverty, colonialism, discrimination or the existence of Israel. What incentive is there for Muslims to demand reform when Western "progressives" pave the way for Islamist barbarity? Indeed, if the problem is not one of religious beliefs, it leaves one to wonder why Christians who live among Muslims under identical circumstances refrain from contributing to wide-scale, systematic campaigns of terror.
Politicians and scholars in the West have taken up the chant that Islamic extremism is caused by the Arab-Israeli conflict. This analysis cannot convince any rational person that the Islamist murder of over 150,000 innocent people in Algeria--which happened in the last few decades--or their slaying of hundreds of Buddhists in Thailand, or the brutal violence between Sunni and Shia in Iraq could have anything to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Western feminists duly fight in their home countries for equal pay and opportunity, but seemingly ignore, under a fa?ade of cultural relativism, that large numbers of women in the Islamic world live under threat of beating, execution and genital mutilation, or cannot vote, drive cars and dress as they please.
The tendency of many Westerners to restrict themselves to self-criticism further obstructs reformation in Islam. Americans demonstrate against the war in Iraq, yet decline to demonstrate against the terrorists who kidnap innocent people and behead them. Similarly, after the Madrid train bombings, millions of Spanish citizens demonstrated against their separatist organization, ETA. But once the demonstrators realized that Muslims were behind the terror attacks they suspended the demonstrations. This example sent a message to radical Islamists to continue their violent methods.
Western appeasement of their Muslim communities has exacerbated the problem. During the four-month period after the publication of the Muhammad cartoons in a Danish magazine, there were comparatively few violent demonstrations by Muslims. Within a few days of the Danish magazine's formal apology, riots erupted throughout the world. The apology had been perceived by Islamists as weakness and concession.
Worst of all, perhaps, is the anti-Americanism among many Westerners. It is a resentment so strong, so deep-seated, so rooted in personal identity, that it has led many, consciously or unconsciously, to morally support America's enemies.
Progressives need to realize that radical Islam is based on an antiliberal system. They need to awaken to the inhumane policies and practices of Islamists around the world. They need to realize that Islamism spells the death of liberal values. And they must not take for granted the respect for human rights and dignity that we experience in America, and indeed, the West, today.
Well-meaning interfaith dialogues with Muslims have largely been fruitless. Participants must demand--but so far haven't--that Muslim organizations and scholars specifically and unambiguously denounce violent Salafi components in their mosques and in the media. Muslims who do not vocally oppose brutal Shariah decrees should not be considered "moderates."
All of this makes the efforts of Muslim reformers more difficult. When Westerners make politically-correct excuses for Islamism, it actually endangers the lives of reformers and in many cases has the effect of suppressing their voices.
Tolerance does not mean toleration of atrocities under the umbrella of relativism. It is time for all of us in the free world to face the reality of Salafi Islam or the reality of radical Islam will continue to face us.
Dr. Hamid, a onetime member of Jemaah Islamiya, an Islamist terrorist group, is a medical doctor and Muslim reformer living in the West.
Replies
230SoWal Expert
That is brilliant! :clap_1: Thanks for sharing it. Quite a lot of wisdom from a high school senior. I would love to see a photo of the audiences faces halfway through that speech. :shock:Yes, it is definitely worth the read. Sorry for the confusion. [ame="http://amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/104-1715015-1772752?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=tom+robbins&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go"]Tom Robbins [/ame]was no high school student when he gave the speech. He had already published several books. He was just giving the speech to a class of graduating students. I cannot recall for certain, but I think it was the high school from which he had graduated.
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Banned
Last year my wife was having chest pain so we took her to one of the best cardiologist in our area. Upon arriving at the Doctor's office we found out the Doctor was a Muslim. Well immediate my wife and I went to the receptionist and said were sorry but no Muslim Doctor is going to check out my wife. The receptionist a young American girl just smiled an said Mr. so and so thats fine but would you at least allow the Dr. to talk to you and your wife . I did and to my astonishment the Dr. was very gracious and apologetic for what terrorist like bin lauden had done. His kindness and understanding was surpriseing to me and for one of the top cardiologist in my area to do this had an effect on me so I allowed him to see my wife. Yes, there are radical Islamist out there but there radical American's as well. How can we bridge that gap unless we some how lay a foundation of trust. The foundation to all relationships.
Nothing binds men closer together than hate!!!!
Nothing binds men closer together than hate!!!!
Edited
Banned
Hell is no more than an eternity without God. One may like Darwin choose to not believe in God,but it is said that on his death bed he cried out forgive me lord. I would never try to convert anyone to a religion,but for argument sake better to be close to God and die and not need him than visa versa. There are many reasons for many to be turned away from the church,Hell they turned Christ away from it but by some chance if he is there then may he have mercy on all of us today.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Hell is no more than an eternity without God. One may like Darwin choose to not believe in God,but it is said that on his death bed he cried out forgive me lord. I would never try to convert anyone to a religion,but for argument sake better to be close to God and die and not need him than visa versa. There are many reasons for many to be turned away from the church,Hell they turned Christ away from it but by some chance he is there then may he have mercy on all of us today.
:clap_1: Well said!
Banned
I guess I need to go ahead and tell 6th Gen no hard feelings. Without a doubt there is much I could teach him,but in the future let your grace be seasoned with a little salt. It is easy to rebuke someone but with kindness you will always be receptive by a wise man.
so and so said that
PS You must be younger than I thought. let say probably trying his hardest to make a go at it. Definitely not from around here(hey So Wal) comment gave you away on that you love to talk about politics so I would guess you in someway have a political background or family in politics. Many of your idea's seemed to plagiarize others work's, but that could come from your respect of there work.Definitely Privileged I would say along with ever so slight a case of narcissism. Not a bad thing just something that comes out from your threads. Take me for instance My Grandpa was a logger who's father died at the picture pump pumping water to drink when he was 12. A small difference yet somehow I would trust his advice over all those fellers you like to quote. Only a younger man would be so complacent about a war.
so and so said that
PS You must be younger than I thought. let say probably trying his hardest to make a go at it. Definitely not from around here(hey So Wal) comment gave you away on that you love to talk about politics so I would guess you in someway have a political background or family in politics. Many of your idea's seemed to plagiarize others work's, but that could come from your respect of there work.Definitely Privileged I would say along with ever so slight a case of narcissism. Not a bad thing just something that comes out from your threads. Take me for instance My Grandpa was a logger who's father died at the picture pump pumping water to drink when he was 12. A small difference yet somehow I would trust his advice over all those fellers you like to quote. Only a younger man would be so complacent about a war.
Edited
Banned
You don't know your history. Maybe that is what you see in today's world, but it has not always been that way.
actually, i have a minor in religion and have read most of the major religious texts. while i could go on a rampage about the inquisition or the crusades, i think it's important to keep this discussion to what's relevant today. and yes, i've seen jesus camp, and while it's scary, the overriding difference is that most people in western society would also view it as scary and extremist - while that same kind of hate speech against jews and infidels makes it into advertising-supported kid's tv shows on worldwide arabic tv.
in fact, many people confuse "respect" for other's religions with acceptance. in fact, social tolerance is a very different thing and is all that is required to live in a diverse society.
in the past, our democracy provided a safe environment for people to live their own belief system while honoring other's rights. that is no longer the case. in the u.s. while christian prayer and symbolism is legally forbidden in public schools, we are no approving curriculums that insist children recite islamic prayers daily to "encourage understanding."
i can't speak for everyone, but in my opinion, the religious respect and freedom that i think works best is similar to isreal - where most of the population is secular - but isreali troops have been injured protecting islamic holy sites. they have also, in the name of peace, agreed to give muslims control of their only holy site. the site of the temple in jerusalem. despite the fact that muslims refuse any jew entry into this holy site, isrealis honor this agreement in the name of social peace.
so while there will always be individuals who use their personal rage and hate to attack other religions, i think it's unfair to assess the jewish and christian cultures of intolerance. i think they've done pretty well at keeping oppression in check. while islam really needs their moderates to step up to the plate because their extremists have taken over.
Edited
SoWal Expert
To clarify my point:
You stated that Christians and Jews respect other religions. That is such a blanket statement and not fully true. I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and that church preaches that all who do not believe that Jesus Christ is their saviour, are going to Hell. Now if you call that "respecting" other religions, so be it, but I sure as heck don't. They also preached that if you weren't trying to convert non-believers into followers of Jesus Christ, you were not being a good Christian. Respect is not about trying to convert others to your own beliefs. It has more to do with acknowledging that others may have their own beliefs by which they should live. Also, my reference to history is that religious wars have been fought for thousands of years by Christians and Jews alike. If you want to call going to war over your beliefs, "respecting" other religions, so be it, but I don't. I am no religious scholar, but I don't have to be to know that Christianity spread by leaching onto other religions. Look at history and you will see that Christian holidays are mostly taken from Pagans, even the whole Easter bunny laying eggs still has direct ties to Paganism. I am not against Christianity, but to say that Christians respect other religions, I think the history books might disagree.
You stated that Christians and Jews respect other religions. That is such a blanket statement and not fully true. I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and that church preaches that all who do not believe that Jesus Christ is their saviour, are going to Hell. Now if you call that "respecting" other religions, so be it, but I sure as heck don't. They also preached that if you weren't trying to convert non-believers into followers of Jesus Christ, you were not being a good Christian. Respect is not about trying to convert others to your own beliefs. It has more to do with acknowledging that others may have their own beliefs by which they should live. Also, my reference to history is that religious wars have been fought for thousands of years by Christians and Jews alike. If you want to call going to war over your beliefs, "respecting" other religions, so be it, but I don't. I am no religious scholar, but I don't have to be to know that Christianity spread by leaching onto other religions. Look at history and you will see that Christian holidays are mostly taken from Pagans, even the whole Easter bunny laying eggs still has direct ties to Paganism. I am not against Christianity, but to say that Christians respect other religions, I think the history books might disagree.
Edited
Beach Lover
Glad to hear your family preacher indicated that non-believers will go to hell, and not: kill them - since they don't believe.
Beach Fanatic
I wonder if the twenty something people who were killed at Virginia Tech this morning were shot by Muslims, or maybe they were shot by crackers.
What have you got against "Crackers"?
Beach Fanatic
in fact, many people confuse "respect" for other's religions with acceptance. in fact, social tolerance is a very different thing and is all that is required to live in a diverse society.
I agree!
[/QUOTE]in the past, our democracy provided a safe environment for people to live their own belief system while honoring other's rights. that is no longer the case. in the u.s. while christian prayer and symbolism is legally forbidden in public schools, we are no approving curriculums that insist children recite islamic prayers daily to "encourage understanding."[/QUOTE]
That is actually incorrect. http://www.aclj.org/Issues/Resources/Document.aspx?ID=864#
Student Rights Guaranteed Under the Constitution and Federal Law
Freedom to Meet with Other Students for Prayer, Bible Study, and Worship
Freedom to Wear Clothing Depicting Religious Messages and Symbols
Freedom to Express Religious Beliefs on Campus
Freedom to Share Religious Tracts on Campus
Freedom to Pray Voluntarily
Freedom to Carry a Bible or Other Religious Literature
Freedom to Prepare School Assignments and Projects From, and Expressing, a Religious Perspective
Freedom to Observe Religious Holidays on Campus
Freedom to Organize Religious Clubs
Freedom to Live According to Their Religious Beliefs While on Campus
Beach Fanatic
"...As a matter of fact, the entire system into which you were born and which now, upon completion of high (high?) school you must perhaps face more directly, is a system designed to trap you- and manipulate you as a co-operating slave, a system designed to steep you in Hell.
Hell is living in your fears, and it is through fear, both
subtle and overt, that the system traps you. Fear of failure, fear of social rejection, fear of poverty, fear of punishment, fear of death.
For example, we are taught to fear something called Communism, and millions of Americans go to bed every night wondering if Mao Tse Tung is under their bed. Conversely, on the other side of the world millions of Russians and Chinese go to bed wondering if Henry Kissenger is under their bed. Our totalitarian government uses the hoax of the threat of Communism to control and enslave us, just as the totalitarian Communist governments use the hoax of the threat of capitalism to control and enslave their people. It's an extremely old and obviously effective trick.
You see, the powers behind Communism and the powers behind Capitalism are virtually the same people. We might also include the powers behind the Vatican and the powers behind Islam. Their main function is to mystify the popular mind by creating illusions of omnipotence and omniscience with which to command docility from their subjects, although it does not require much thorough investigation to discover that few of the peoples of this world are happy, healthy, or fulfilled...."
Tom Robbins
Pretty strong statement, powers behind Communism and Capitalism virtually the same? Doesn't that rather upset the whole American fight for freedom?
SoWal Expert
I agree!in the past, our democracy provided a safe environment for people to live their own belief system while honoring other's rights. that is no longer the case. in the u.s. while christian prayer and symbolism is legally forbidden in public schools, we are no approving curriculums that insist children recite islamic prayers daily to "encourage understanding."[/quote]
That is actually incorrect. http://www.aclj.org/Issues/Resources/Document.aspx?ID=864#
Student Rights Guaranteed Under the Constitution and Federal Law
Freedom to Meet with Other Students for Prayer, Bible Study, and Worship
Freedom to Wear Clothing Depicting Religious Messages and Symbols
Freedom to Express Religious Beliefs on Campus
Freedom to Share Religious Tracts on Campus
Freedom to Pray Voluntarily
Freedom to Carry a Bible or Other Religious Literature
Freedom to Prepare School Assignments and Projects From, and Expressing, a Religious Perspective
Freedom to Observe Religious Holidays on Campus
Freedom to Organize Religious Clubs
Freedom to Live According to Their Religious Beliefs While on Campus[/quote]
A little back ground on this American Center for Law and Justice:
The American Center for Law and Justice was founded in [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990"]1990[/ame] by [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian"]Christian[/ame] Dr. [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson"]Pat Robertson[/ame] as a nonprofit public interest law firm composed of attorneys committed to defending the Constitutional right to religious liberty, the sanctity of human life, and the two-parent, marriage-bound family." It was conceived as a counterweight to the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Liberties_Union"]American Civil Liberties Union[/ame], an organization which in the words of Robertson is "hostile to traditional [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_values"]American values[/ame]".
Just love that Pat Robertson- he's about as tolerant, non-judgemental, and Christian as they come.:roll:
Edited
Beach Fanatic
A little back ground on this American Center for Law and Justice:
The American Center for Law and Justice was founded in 1990 by Christian Dr. Pat Robertson as a nonprofit public interest law firm composed of attorneys committed to defending the Constitutional right to religious liberty, the sanctity of human life, and the two-parent, marriage-bound family." It was conceived as a counterweight to the American Civil Liberties Union, an organization which in the words of Robertson is "hostile to traditional American values".
Just love that Pat Robertson- he's about as tolerant, non-judgemental, and Christian as they come.:roll:
Hey, if he got the job done! American citizens do have rights!
Banned
in the past, our democracy provided a safe environment for people to live their own belief system while honoring other's rights. that is no longer the case. in the u.s. while christian prayer and symbolism is legally forbidden in public schools, we are no approving curriculums that insist children recite islamic prayers daily to "encourage understanding."
That is actually incorrect. http://www.aclj.org/Issues/Resources/Document.aspx?ID=864#
Student Rights Guaranteed Under the Constitution and Federal Law
Freedom to Meet with Other Students for Prayer, Bible Study, and Worship
Freedom to Wear Clothing Depicting Religious Messages and Symbols
Freedom to Express Religious Beliefs on Campus
Freedom to Share Religious Tracts on Campus
Freedom to Pray Voluntarily
Freedom to Carry a Bible or Other Religious Literature
Freedom to Prepare School Assignments and Projects From, and Expressing, a Religious Perspective
Freedom to Observe Religious Holidays on Campus
Freedom to Organize Religious Clubs
Freedom to Live According to Their Religious Beliefs While on Campus[/quote]
A little back ground on this American Center for Law and Justice:
The American Center for Law and Justice was founded in [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990"]1990[/ame] by [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian"]Christian[/ame] Dr. [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson"]Pat Robertson[/ame] as a nonprofit public interest law firm composed of attorneys committed to defending the Constitutional right to religious liberty, the sanctity of human life, and the two-parent, marriage-bound family." It was conceived as a counterweight to the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Liberties_Union"]American Civil Liberties Union[/ame], an organization which in the words of Robertson is "hostile to traditional [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_values"]American values[/ame]".
Just love that Pat Robertson- he's about as tolerant, non-judgemental, and Christian as they come.:roll:[/quote]
and, in our judeo-christian society, a majority of people consider him an extremist and he has very little power in our country or on the worldstage as a result- indeed he is almost never seen on national network television. indeed, even the vatican, which was once revered on the world stage, has many outspoken critics even within its own church.
whilst, in current muslim culture, a majority of society both muslim and western, do not consider muslim terrorist behavior extremist or oppressive , but instead rationalize it. and you rarely hear any outcry or dissention from within the society. compare the identified religious extremist in judeo-christianity with the muslim inclusion of hate-speech in text books and the use of multinational arabic network to convey speech and promotion of violent terrorism:
children taught culture of death:
http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_AFD_short.asx
legitimizing hate speech on a world stage:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,236014,00.html
international arabic news program featuring little girl:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo&mode=related&search"]YouTube - Arabs brainwashed little girls to hate Jews[/ame]=
meanwhile little kids in isreal are singing peace songs and talking about loving one another. most are traumatized by how they see these children being raised once they enter the army. it is so different than the jewish culture.
when i see equal outcry against this muslim hate-speech on al jazeera, then i will believe islam has potential for tolerance. but i have not heard any outcry.
for those who compare the mission of our soldiers with terrorists, i have nothing to offer other than, we simply do not share the same values of life and liberty.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
"...As a matter of fact, the entire system into which you were born and which now, upon completion of high (high?) school you must perhaps face more directly, is a system designed to trap you- and manipulate you as a co-operating slave, a system designed to steep you in Hell.
Hell is living in your fears, and it is through fear, both
subtle and overt, that the system traps you. Fear of failure, fear of social rejection, fear of poverty, fear of punishment, fear of death.
For example, we are taught to fear something called Communism, and millions of Americans go to bed every night wondering if Mao Tse Tung is under their bed. Conversely, on the other side of the world millions of Russians and Chinese go to bed wondering if Henry Kissenger is under their bed. Our totalitarian government uses the hoax of the threat of Communism to control and enslave us, just as the totalitarian Communist governments use the hoax of the threat of capitalism to control and enslave their people. It's an extremely old and obviously effective trick.
You see, the powers behind Communism and the powers behind Capitalism are virtually the same people. We might also include the powers behind the Vatican and the powers behind Islam. Their main function is to mystify the popular mind by creating illusions of omnipotence and omniscience with which to command docility from their subjects, although it does not require much thorough investigation to discover that few of the peoples of this world are happy, healthy, or fulfilled...."
Tom Robbins
That sounds like George Orwell's 1984 paraphrased. There have always been and will always be 3 classes of society (Highs, Middles, and Lows) all of whom are are controlled by a few. These few have different means of control but the motive and result are the same.
The Highs desire are to remain where the are, the Middles desire are to achieve the High status by rallying the Lows in the name of equality then promptly dumping them once their few leaders have achieved their desire, and the Lows are resigned to their fate of servitude for one master or another whose names change but the result remains the same.
I love that book. (and of course I was paraphrasing as well)
"1984 may not arrive on time, but there is always 1985." - Walter Cronkite
Edited
Banned
i couldn't figure out where this hatred of christians and jews came from, but maybe you're watching these guys:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGpJC3f3UHk&mode=related&search="]YouTube - Palestinian Sheik: "Islam Will Rule U.S/U.K, Jews Are AIDS"[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oVkHMmJIG4&mode=related&search"]YouTube - Saudi Professor Calls for "Positive Hatred" of Christians[/ame]=
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9BOPR3yhY4&mode=related&search"]YouTube - UAE Professor Says Jews in One Place for Easy Killing[/ame]=
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36UUflGzWCA"]YouTube - Jewish Conspiracy in a Saudi TV Show[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYpR1dLV8L4&mode=related&search"]YouTube - Saudi Author Expresses His Opinion About Westerners[/ame]=
i'll give judaism and christianity and buddhism this, it's not accepted in the majority that anyone who isn't of your religion is "cattle".
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGpJC3f3UHk&mode=related&search="]YouTube - Palestinian Sheik: "Islam Will Rule U.S/U.K, Jews Are AIDS"[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oVkHMmJIG4&mode=related&search"]YouTube - Saudi Professor Calls for "Positive Hatred" of Christians[/ame]=
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9BOPR3yhY4&mode=related&search"]YouTube - UAE Professor Says Jews in One Place for Easy Killing[/ame]=
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36UUflGzWCA"]YouTube - Jewish Conspiracy in a Saudi TV Show[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYpR1dLV8L4&mode=related&search"]YouTube - Saudi Author Expresses His Opinion About Westerners[/ame]=
i'll give judaism and christianity and buddhism this, it's not accepted in the majority that anyone who isn't of your religion is "cattle".
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Hell, via Stagecoach
Local Tour Operator and Guide, 30gAy announced Monday that he plans to continue offering his popular 14 day bus excursions to Hell.
His business, entitled 30-gAyTripsOut usually offers visits to such places as Mykonos and Puerto Vallarta, and so the Hell excursion represented a slight change of locale. 30-gAy explained that he feels that the trip is not as exotic as some would assume; ?Actually its not so much of a stretch, I mean have you ever been stuck on the toilet for days on end after drinking the water in Mexico? It?s a little slice of Hell, let me tell ya.? The trips run July through August; and with temperatures in SoWal climbing ?hotter than Hell? during those months most people find the climate of Hades a refreshing change.
Trip accommodations feature stays at the 4 star DarwInn and fully air-conditioned Motor Coaches. The buses will also be specially fitted with air purifiers to remove the sulfuric stench coming both from the surrounding scenery and conveniently, as the trip attracts some incontinent seniors, the on-board toilet.
30-gAyTripsOut says the demographics of the tours have proven interesting. ?At first we assumed it would be mostly young college kids wanting to party ?on the bus to Hell? but to our surprise the tours have been filled with evangelical Christians, fundamentalist Jews, and militant Muslims. Apparently, they are just obsessed with Hell???...Oh and the possibility that they can wave a judgmental finger at someone burning in the eternal fires and give a ?Haha I told you so? shout out of the bus window is just too great an opportunity to turn down.?
?The timing was good too, I mean what with all those crazy post 911 passport requirements folks are having trouble traveling internationally, and Hell is just so easy to get into; I mean uttering a simple 2 word blasphemy gets you a 2 week tourist visa???
30-gAyTripsOut will be the first tour operation offering vacations in this previously undiscovered destination. Carnival Cruise Lines offered trips to nearby destination limbo from ships based in Mobile, but with the Vatican declaring limbo defunct as of April 20- those tours have been canceled. Globus Tours continues to run its Predestination Tours for the Protestants, although these haven?t proven to be popular with vacationers, as the tour operator will not disclose the final destination until the trip actually begins.
30-gAy went on to point out that the tours have proven the old adage about the journey being as important as the destination. ?These folks want to experience Hell, and two weeks in the company of religious extremists is ironically closer to Hell than actually being there.?
Pastor Ralph Smith and his wife enjoyed their trip to Hell. "The best part was when I saw my college buddy roasting in a pit of lava.....I warned him about drinking, oh well, now he knows..."
Local Tour Operator and Guide, 30gAy announced Monday that he plans to continue offering his popular 14 day bus excursions to Hell.
His business, entitled 30-gAyTripsOut usually offers visits to such places as Mykonos and Puerto Vallarta, and so the Hell excursion represented a slight change of locale. 30-gAy explained that he feels that the trip is not as exotic as some would assume; ?Actually its not so much of a stretch, I mean have you ever been stuck on the toilet for days on end after drinking the water in Mexico? It?s a little slice of Hell, let me tell ya.? The trips run July through August; and with temperatures in SoWal climbing ?hotter than Hell? during those months most people find the climate of Hades a refreshing change.
Trip accommodations feature stays at the 4 star DarwInn and fully air-conditioned Motor Coaches. The buses will also be specially fitted with air purifiers to remove the sulfuric stench coming both from the surrounding scenery and conveniently, as the trip attracts some incontinent seniors, the on-board toilet.
30-gAyTripsOut says the demographics of the tours have proven interesting. ?At first we assumed it would be mostly young college kids wanting to party ?on the bus to Hell? but to our surprise the tours have been filled with evangelical Christians, fundamentalist Jews, and militant Muslims. Apparently, they are just obsessed with Hell???...Oh and the possibility that they can wave a judgmental finger at someone burning in the eternal fires and give a ?Haha I told you so? shout out of the bus window is just too great an opportunity to turn down.?
?The timing was good too, I mean what with all those crazy post 911 passport requirements folks are having trouble traveling internationally, and Hell is just so easy to get into; I mean uttering a simple 2 word blasphemy gets you a 2 week tourist visa???
30-gAyTripsOut will be the first tour operation offering vacations in this previously undiscovered destination. Carnival Cruise Lines offered trips to nearby destination limbo from ships based in Mobile, but with the Vatican declaring limbo defunct as of April 20- those tours have been canceled. Globus Tours continues to run its Predestination Tours for the Protestants, although these haven?t proven to be popular with vacationers, as the tour operator will not disclose the final destination until the trip actually begins.
30-gAy went on to point out that the tours have proven the old adage about the journey being as important as the destination. ?These folks want to experience Hell, and two weeks in the company of religious extremists is ironically closer to Hell than actually being there.?
Pastor Ralph Smith and his wife enjoyed their trip to Hell. "The best part was when I saw my college buddy roasting in a pit of lava.....I warned him about drinking, oh well, now he knows..."
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Beach Fanatic
when i see equal outcry against this muslim hate-speech on al jazeera, then i will believe islam has potential for tolerance. but i have not heard any outcry.
for those who compare the mission of our soldiers with terrorists, i have nothing to offer other than, we simply do not share the same values of life and liberty.[/quote]
The outcry is not on FOX News which I guess you frequent. Please tell me where you would turn for the moderate muslim viewpoint. Parroting conservative talk radio grows tiresome.
Let me put the shoe on the other foot for you. Iraqis are sitting around now wondering where all the "outcry" is about their destroyed country and dead citizens. They have not seen it on CNN and FOX. They probably have seen it fomented on their "FOX News-jazeera"
When you state we do not share the same values of life and liberty, what do you mean? You and I? Iraqis and Americans? Muslims and Christians?
for those who compare the mission of our soldiers with terrorists, i have nothing to offer other than, we simply do not share the same values of life and liberty.[/quote]
The outcry is not on FOX News which I guess you frequent. Please tell me where you would turn for the moderate muslim viewpoint. Parroting conservative talk radio grows tiresome.
Let me put the shoe on the other foot for you. Iraqis are sitting around now wondering where all the "outcry" is about their destroyed country and dead citizens. They have not seen it on CNN and FOX. They probably have seen it fomented on their "FOX News-jazeera"
When you state we do not share the same values of life and liberty, what do you mean? You and I? Iraqis and Americans? Muslims and Christians?
Beach Fanatic
To me, Religion is synonymous with Trouble. Jesus wasn't Christian, Buddha wasn't Buddhist and Muhammad wasn't Muslim. They were spiritual men who gave of themselves to a higher being and purpose and left labels alone. Why subsequent followers dropped that fundamental teaching is the cause for hateful ignorance and man-made dogmatic religion, IMO.
But what do I know, I rent beach chairs while watching dolphins, sandpipers and children play. ;-)
But what do I know, I rent beach chairs while watching dolphins, sandpipers and children play. ;-)
SoWal Expert
What have you got against "Crackers"?Nothing. Just a play on the current events of that day, with Imus' firing.
Beach Fanatic
and, in our judeo-christian society, a majority of people consider him an extremist and he has very little power in our country or on the worldstage as a result- indeed he is almost never seen on national network television. indeed, even the vatican, which was once revered on the world stage, has many outspoken critics even within its own church.
If he has very little power in our country, then why are you, and others talking about him? Apparently he has more power than you admit.
margarita brocolia
Hell, via Stagecoach...........
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SoWal Expert
If he has very little power in our country, then why are you, and others talking about him? Apparently he has more power than you admit.
We are talking about him because you posted info about an organization he started. But normally, I don't talk about someone as ridiculous as Pat Robertson.
Banned
No matter how much I disagreed with someone I knew I could not bring my self to speak ill of the dead. We are all sinners in some way or another.
SoWal Expert
No matter how much I disagreed with someone I knew I could not bring my self to speak ill of the dead. We are all sinners in some way or another.I guess you are just better than us. I have no problem talking "ill" about Hitler and plenty of other people who are long gone.
Edited
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