http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009890
Here is a former terrorist talking about the dangers of appeasement.
The Trouble With Islam
Sadly, mainstream Muslim teaching accepts and promotes violence.
BY TAWFIK HAMID
Tuesday, April 3, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT
Not many years ago the brilliant Orientalist, Bernard Lewis, published a short history of the Islamic world's decline, entitled "What Went Wrong?" Astonishingly, there was, among many Western "progressives," a vocal dislike for the title. It is a false premise, these critics protested. They ignored Mr. Lewis's implicit statement that things have been, or could be, right.
But indeed, there is much that is clearly wrong with the Islamic world. Women are stoned to death and undergo clitorectomies. Gays hang from the gallows under the approving eyes of the proponents of Shariah, the legal code of Islam. Sunni and Shia massacre each other daily in Iraq. Palestinian mothers teach 3-year-old boys and girls the ideal of martyrdom. One would expect the orthodox Islamic establishment to evade or dismiss these complaints, but less happily, the non-Muslim priests of enlightenment in the West have come, actively and passively, to the Islamists' defense.
These "progressives" frequently cite the need to examine "root causes." In this they are correct: Terrorism is only the manifestation of a disease and not the disease itself. But the root-causes are quite different from what they think. As a former member of Jemaah Islamiya, a group led by al Qaeda's second in command, Ayman al-Zawahiri, I know firsthand that the inhumane teaching in Islamist ideology can transform a young, benevolent mind into that of a terrorist. Without confronting the ideological roots of radical Islam it will be impossible to combat it. While there are many ideological "rootlets" of Islamism, the main tap root has a name--Salafism, or Salafi Islam, a violent, ultra-conservative version of the religion.
It is vital to grasp that traditional and even mainstream Islamic teaching accepts and promotes violence. Shariah, for example, allows apostates to be killed, permits beating women to discipline them, seeks to subjugate non-Muslims to Islam as dhimmis and justifies declaring war to do so. It exhorts good Muslims to exterminate the Jews before the "end of days." The near deafening silence of the Muslim majority against these barbaric practices is evidence enough that there is something fundamentally wrong.
The grave predicament we face in the Islamic world is the virtual lack of approved, theologically rigorous interpretations of Islam that clearly challenge the abusive aspects of Shariah. Unlike Salafism, more liberal branches of Islam, such as Sufism, typically do not provide the essential theological base to nullify the cruel proclamations of their Salafist counterparts. And so, for more than 20 years I have been developing and working to establish a theologically-rigorous Islam that teaches peace.
Yet it is ironic and discouraging that many non-Muslim, Western intellectuals--who unceasingly claim to support human rights--have become obstacles to reforming Islam. Political correctness among Westerners obstructs unambiguous criticism of Shariah's inhumanity. They find socioeconomic or political excuses for Islamist terrorism such as poverty, colonialism, discrimination or the existence of Israel. What incentive is there for Muslims to demand reform when Western "progressives" pave the way for Islamist barbarity? Indeed, if the problem is not one of religious beliefs, it leaves one to wonder why Christians who live among Muslims under identical circumstances refrain from contributing to wide-scale, systematic campaigns of terror.
Politicians and scholars in the West have taken up the chant that Islamic extremism is caused by the Arab-Israeli conflict. This analysis cannot convince any rational person that the Islamist murder of over 150,000 innocent people in Algeria--which happened in the last few decades--or their slaying of hundreds of Buddhists in Thailand, or the brutal violence between Sunni and Shia in Iraq could have anything to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Western feminists duly fight in their home countries for equal pay and opportunity, but seemingly ignore, under a fa?ade of cultural relativism, that large numbers of women in the Islamic world live under threat of beating, execution and genital mutilation, or cannot vote, drive cars and dress as they please.
The tendency of many Westerners to restrict themselves to self-criticism further obstructs reformation in Islam. Americans demonstrate against the war in Iraq, yet decline to demonstrate against the terrorists who kidnap innocent people and behead them. Similarly, after the Madrid train bombings, millions of Spanish citizens demonstrated against their separatist organization, ETA. But once the demonstrators realized that Muslims were behind the terror attacks they suspended the demonstrations. This example sent a message to radical Islamists to continue their violent methods.
Western appeasement of their Muslim communities has exacerbated the problem. During the four-month period after the publication of the Muhammad cartoons in a Danish magazine, there were comparatively few violent demonstrations by Muslims. Within a few days of the Danish magazine's formal apology, riots erupted throughout the world. The apology had been perceived by Islamists as weakness and concession.
Worst of all, perhaps, is the anti-Americanism among many Westerners. It is a resentment so strong, so deep-seated, so rooted in personal identity, that it has led many, consciously or unconsciously, to morally support America's enemies.
Progressives need to realize that radical Islam is based on an antiliberal system. They need to awaken to the inhumane policies and practices of Islamists around the world. They need to realize that Islamism spells the death of liberal values. And they must not take for granted the respect for human rights and dignity that we experience in America, and indeed, the West, today.
Well-meaning interfaith dialogues with Muslims have largely been fruitless. Participants must demand--but so far haven't--that Muslim organizations and scholars specifically and unambiguously denounce violent Salafi components in their mosques and in the media. Muslims who do not vocally oppose brutal Shariah decrees should not be considered "moderates."
All of this makes the efforts of Muslim reformers more difficult. When Westerners make politically-correct excuses for Islamism, it actually endangers the lives of reformers and in many cases has the effect of suppressing their voices.
Tolerance does not mean toleration of atrocities under the umbrella of relativism. It is time for all of us in the free world to face the reality of Salafi Islam or the reality of radical Islam will continue to face us.
Dr. Hamid, a onetime member of Jemaah Islamiya, an Islamist terrorist group, is a medical doctor and Muslim reformer living in the West.
Replies
230Banned
but to our surprise the tours have been filled with evangelical Christians, fundamentalist Jews, and militant Muslims. Apparently, they are just obsessed with Hell???
that's cute sugar, but highly inaccurate. jews don't believe in hell.
Banned
If he has very little power in our country, then why are you, and others talking about him? Apparently he has more power than you admit.
i never talk about him dear. only in response to others who use him as an expample. read a bit more thoroughly next time before jumping the gun.
Banned
The outcry is not on FOX News which I guess you frequent. Please tell me where you would turn for the moderate muslim viewpoint. Parroting conservative talk radio grows tiresome.
Let me put the shoe on the other foot for you. Iraqis are sitting around now wondering where all the "outcry" is about their destroyed country and dead citizens. They have not seen it on CNN and FOX. They probably have seen it fomented on their "FOX News-jazeera"
When you state we do not share the same values of life and liberty, what do you mean? You and I? Iraqis and Americans? Muslims and Christians?
intelligent and well-read people frequent all news sources and outlets: fox, cnn, bbc, al jazeera, various internet versions of papers including thenew york times, jerusalem post, etc. and numerous first person reporting blogs included. those who fear information and scream for censorship are the kind whoinsist that the "truth" only comes from one source. i suppose that puts you in the same category with other extremists who insist that the "other" is evil and not worth hearing.
as for outcry, i hardly heard any from any western news outlet during hussein's genocide of the kurds to facilitate oil deals with the french and russians. i suppose "no blood for oil" only applies to white western lives where "anti-war" folks are concerned. as for people who hear the iraquis outcry about 85% of the americans working with charities to help the iraqis are from military families. so excuse me if i don't buy the "pompous compassionate outrage".
oh..p.s. i'm not affiliated with any political party, i'm not about to pledge my allegiance to some party bent on destroying our country in the name of achieving their own ends and power base. but given your personally insulting post, i'm sure that's a bit much to wrap your head around.
Edited
SoWal Insider
actually, i have a minor in religion and have read most of the major religious texts. while i could go on a rampage about the inquisition or the crusades, i think it's important to keep this discussion to what's relevant today. and yes, i've seen jesus camp, and while it's scary, the overriding difference is that most people in western society would also view it as scary and extremist - while that same kind of hate speech against jews and infidels makes it into advertising-supported kid's tv shows on worldwide arabic tv.In the past our country has trampled on anyones' rights if they were "in the way". We murdered, raped, and killed our way across North America taking land that did not ever belong to us, and enslaved an entire race of people for business purposes. What safe environment do you speak of, and who benefitted from it? You have a minor in Religion, but how about some basic history? Regarding Christian and Jewish tolerance, how can you compare our secular society with their religion dominated culture. Can you imagine everyone in your hometown stopping en masse to pray 5 times, every day. What do you expect? If the Southern Baptists ran the United States, then we could compare societies, and the Muslims could whine about the absence of Christian moderates.
in fact, many people confuse "respect" for other's religions with acceptance. in fact, social tolerance is a very different thing and is all that is required to live in a diverse society.
in the past, our democracy provided a safe environment for people to live their own belief system while honoring other's rights. that is no longer the case. in the u.s. while christian prayer and symbolism is legally forbidden in public schools, we are no approving curriculums that insist children recite islamic prayers daily to "encourage understanding."
i can't speak for everyone, but in my opinion, the religious respect and freedom that i think works best is similar to isreal - where most of the population is secular - but isreali troops have been injured protecting islamic holy sites. they have also, in the name of peace, agreed to give muslims control of their only holy site. the site of the temple in jerusalem. despite the fact that muslims refuse any jew entry into this holy site, isrealis honor this agreement in the name of social peace.
so while there will always be individuals who use their personal rage and hate to attack other religions, i think it's unfair to assess the jewish and christian cultures of intolerance. i think they've done pretty well at keeping oppression in check. while islam really needs their moderates to step up to the plate because their extremists have taken over.
Beach Fanatic
To me, Religion is synonymous with Trouble. Jesus wasn't Christian, Buddha wasn't Buddhist and Muhammad wasn't Muslim. They were spiritual men who gave of themselves to a higher being and purpose and left labels alone. Why subsequent followers dropped that fundamental teaching is the cause for hateful ignorance and man-made dogmatic religion, IMO.
But what do I know, I rent beach chairs while watching dolphins, sandpipers and children play. ;-)
:clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1:
Banned
In the past our country has trampled on anyones' rights if they were "in the way". We murdered, raped, and killed our way across North America taking land that did not ever belong to us, and enslaved an entire race of people for business purposes. What safe environment do you speak of, and who benefitted from it? You have a minor in Religion, but how about some basic history? Regarding Christian and Jewish tolerance, how can you compare our secular society with their religion dominated culture. Can you imagine everyone in your hometown stopping en masse to pray 5 times, every day. What do you expect? If the Southern Baptists ran the United States, then we could compare societies, and the Muslims could whine about the absence of Christian moderates.
enough with the white western guilt...shall we? in the past, ALL peoples were brutal rampaging intolerant warmongers. pick up the history book of ANY peoples.
and when i say "christian and jewish society" i'm referring to our country which has a legal system that is based on jewish law and a christian culture. thankfully, our current democracy and legal system has created an environment where mutual tolerance is enforced. i didn't say decimated!!
as long as there are people there will be schmucks and hate-mongers who use religion to make a point, but then again, we also have plenty of atheists who are schmucks and hatemongers who try to convert "nonbelievers" to their party and use their political "gods" to make a point. yeah, it's not perfect. but at least we can pride ourselves in creating an environment where people are allowed to follow different religions and even live out their crazy extremist theories without actually infringing on anyone's rights by living within the limits of the law.
democracy is messy and offensive. facism is clean and orderly.
i pick democracy.
SoWal Insider
Hell, via Stagecoach
Local Tour Operator and Guide, 30gAy announced Monday that he plans to continue offering his popular 14 day bus excursions to Hell.
"
:funn: :rofl:
that's cute sugar, but highly inaccurate. jews don't believe in hell.
After reading this thread anyone would believe in Hell.
Edited
SoWal Insider
enough with the white western guilt...shall we? in the past, ALL peoples were brutal rampaging intolerant warmongers. pick up the history book of ANY peoples.The term "white western guilt" is a cheap deflection on the truth. When I was a child, there were "white" and "colored" drinking fountains. Chew on that idea awhile when you feel all smug about America. Elevating your religion or race above others is the main cause of killing over the history of mankind, and the angle you pursue here is what pompously put us in Iraq. Our system works well because we isolate religion from government. Your democracy/facism quote is a crock. Where did you lift that from, Reader's Digest?
and when i say "christian and jewish society" i'm referring to our country which has a legal system that is based on jewish law and a christian culture. thankfully, our current democracy and legal system has created an environment where mutual tolerance is enforced. i didn't say decimated!!
yeah, it's not perfect. but at least we can pride ourselves in creating an environment where people are allowed to follow different religions and even live out their crazy extremist theories without actually infringing on anyone's rights by living within the limits of the law.
democracy is messy and offensive. facism is clean and orderly.
i pick democracy.
Banned
After reading this thread anyone would believe in Hell.
yes..ignorance and intolerance is indeed hell. :roll:
Banned
The term "white western guilt" is a cheap deflection on the truth. When I was a child, there were "white" and "colored" drinking fountains. Chew on that idea awhile when you feel all smug about America. Elevating your religion or race above others is the main cause of killing over the history of mankind, and the angle you pursue here is what pompously put us in Iraq. Our system works well because we isolate religion from government. Your democracy/facism quote is a crock. Where did you lift that from, Reader's Digest?
how do you know my race or religion?? a little presumptuous no?
Banned
or my country by the way! i CHOOSE to live in america my dear. i don't HAVE to. i have citizenship elsewhere.
i'll be calling it a night on this thread after those last ignorant remarks.
i'll be calling it a night on this thread after those last ignorant remarks.
Edited
SoWal Insider
how do you know my race or religion?? a little presumptuous no?You are a child of the Universe.
Beach Fanatic
intelligent and well-read people frequent all news sources and outlets: fox, cnn, bbc, al jazeera, various internet versions of papers including thenew york times, jerusalem post, etc. and numerous first person reporting blogs included. those who fear information and scream for censorship are the kind whoinsist that the "truth" only comes from one source. i suppose that puts you in the same category with other extremists who insist that the "other" is evil and not worth hearing.
as for outcry, i hardly heard any from any western news outlet during hussein's genocide of the kurds to facilitate oil deals with the french and russians. i suppose "no blood for oil" only applies to white western lives where "anti-war" folks are concerned. as for people who hear the iraquis outcry about 85% of the americans working with charities to help the iraqis are from military families. so excuse me if i don't buy the "pompous compassionate outrage".
oh..p.s. i'm not affiliated with any political party, i'm not about to pledge my allegiance to some party bent on destroying our country in the name of achieving their own ends and power base. but given your personally insulting post, i'm sure that's a bit much to wrap your head around.
I do not wish to get in a long discussion with you as it is clear that you are fixed in your views. That is fine but for others reading this post, allow me to point out a couple of things. Quoting U.S networks, British news outlets, Israeli newspapers, and various blogs hardly makes up likely sources of moderate Islamic views. True al-jazeera is an Arab source but one with an agenda similar to its American counterpart. My guess is that MF's exposure to al-jazeera is limited to excerpts played on western news outlets. I am not sure where MF sees me "screaming" for censorship but whatever.
I am equally confused by MF's assertion that there was not enough outcry about gassing of the Kurds in the 1980's and therefore there is no nead for an outcry now about Iraqis dying. Check out this picture and article of Rumsfeld and Saddam meeting to help channel helicopters to the Iraqis to help use chemical weapons against the Iranians in the 80's. Quite ironic. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
There are basically two ways to look at the Iraq debacle-- a worldview and an American view. I choose a worldview; MF chooses an America-centric one. From a selfish standpoint, he is right. It doesn't hurt me in my easy life in ATL to watch things fall apart overseas. I am probably the fool to care about the rest of the world and how our actions affect it.
With that I leave you as I am off to some sweet N. Georgia mountain biking. I love this country.
SoWal Expert
Rancid, along with your thoughts of Rumsfield and Saddam, I seem to remember something about the US supplying weapons and training to Osama Bin Laden and Afghanistan to fight the Russians. That wasn't many years ago.
It seems that we tend to not think too far in advance, when acting locally or globally. All of this kind of reflects back to my earlier quote from Tom Robbins. They are all the same, just different.
It seems that we tend to not think too far in advance, when acting locally or globally. All of this kind of reflects back to my earlier quote from Tom Robbins. They are all the same, just different.
Beach FanaticAuthor
Here is another Robbins quote, "intellectually, emotionally, and physically, (America) has been exhibiting all the characteristics of an adolescent bully, a pubescent punk who's too big for his britches and too strong for his age. Someday, perhaps, we may grow out of our mindless, pimple-faced arrogance, but in the meantime, it might do us a ton of good to have our butts kicked."
And this "You see, the powers behind Communism and the powers behind Capitalism are virtually the same people." is possibly the most wrong quote I've ever read.
And this "You see, the powers behind Communism and the powers behind Capitalism are virtually the same people." is possibly the most wrong quote I've ever read.
Beach Lover
Here is another Robbins quote, Someday, perhaps, we may grow out of our mindless, pimple-faced arrogance, but in the meantime, it might do us a ton of good to have our butts kicked."
I have been reading some of your threads, and well......wow, sounds applicable to uh........you.
SoWal Expert
Here is another Robbins quote, "intellectually, emotionally, and physically, (America) has been exhibiting all the characteristics of an adolescent bully, a pubescent punk who's too big for his britches and too strong for his age. Someday, perhaps, we may grow out of our mindless, pimple-faced arrogance, but in the meantime, it might do us a ton of good to have our butts kicked."I guess you could apply this quote to other things, too. For instance, our gas inefficient vehicles which will not stop being produced until we get our butts kicked with the price of gas reaching $7 per gallon. ;-)
And this "You see, the powers behind Communism and the powers behind Capitalism are virtually the same people." is possibly the most wrong quote I've ever read.
Beach Comber
i can't speak for everyone, but in my opinion, the religious respect and freedom that i think works best is similar to isreal - where most of the population is secular - but isreali troops have been injured protecting islamic holy sites. they have also, in the name of peace, agreed to give muslims control of their only holy site. the site of the temple in jerusalem. despite the fact that muslims refuse any jew entry into this holy site, isrealis honor this agreement in the name of social peace.
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount[/ame]
Most [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Judaism"]Orthodox[/ame] rabbis, both those belonging to the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Zionism"]Religious Zionist[/ame] and the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi"]Haredi[/ame] Orthodox streams of, have issued prohibitions against entering the Temple Mount because of the danger of entering the area of the Temple courtyard and the difficulty of fulfilling the ritual requirement of cleansing oneself with the ashes of a red [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow"]heifer[/ame] (see [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Numbers"]Numbers 19[/ame]), and declared it punishable with [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karet"]karet[/ame], death by heavenly decree [27].
A Muslim [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waqf"]Waqf[/ame] has managed the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif continuously since the Muslim reconquest of the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Jerusalem"]Kingdom of Jerusalem[/ame]. Since taking control of the area in the Six-Day War, Israel has permitted the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waqf"]Waqf[/ame] to retain internal administration of the site. Under this arrangement Jews and Christians are permitted to visit the site.
SoWal Insider
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_MountA drop of civility in an ocean of strife.
Most Orthodox rabbis, both those belonging to the Religious Zionist and the Haredi Orthodox streams of, have issued prohibitions against entering the Temple Mount because of the danger of entering the area of the Temple courtyard and the difficulty of fulfilling the ritual requirement of cleansing oneself with the ashes of a red heifer (see Numbers 19), and declared it punishable with karet, death by heavenly decree [27].
A Muslim Waqf has managed the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif continuously since the Muslim reconquest of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. Since taking control of the area in the Six-Day War, Israel has permitted the Waqf to retain internal administration of the site. Under this arrangement Jews and Christians are permitted to visit the site.
Beach FanaticAuthor
Bob,
You are a model for all of the dhimmis out there. Keep it up.
You are a model for all of the dhimmis out there. Keep it up.
needs to get out more
Last year my wife was having chest pain so we took her to one of the best cardiologist in our area. Upon arriving at the Doctor's office we found out the Doctor was a Muslim. Well immediate my wife and I went to the receptionist and said were sorry but no Muslim Doctor is going to check out my wife....
... His kindness and understanding was surpriseing to me and for one of the top cardiologist in my area to do this had an effect on me so I allowed him to see my wife....
...
How can we bridge that gap unless we some how lay a foundation of trust. The foundation to all relationships.
Fabian, good thing he wasn't a Negro. I can't believe what I'm reading. You take your wife to the best in the area and then second guess your decision based on the fact that he was a Muslim? Did you think he was going to taint her by working on her, or insert a bomb into her??
Then, you allow him to work on you wife... Is she chattel? Did she have any say in the matter?
The foundation of trust you hold so highly, begins with the kindness and understanding you site, not after you qualify a person.
I will take the best in the industry, regardless of the color of their skin, or religious beliefs.
obviously I'm not speechless, but damn near... incredulous come to mind.
SoWal Expert
Thanks for addressing that issue, John R. I couldn't believe what I was reading and was about to take fabian's head off, but I had too much rage against the ignorance of such thoughts and actions which he stated. Sometimes I feel like I am touching the bottom of the ocean. It can be a very shallow world in which we exist.
Edited
Beach FanaticAuthor
From your source:
"The claims being made by the rulers of Israel and its rabbis about the alleged Temple are pure fabrications without any base or foundation."?Statement by the Higher Islamic Authority of Palestine Al-Quds (PA), December 28, 2001 (Translation by BBC Worldwide Monitoring)
Sheikh Raad Salah - head of the Islamic Movement in Israel has stated: "We remind, for the 1,000th time, that the entire Al-Aqsa mosque, including all of its area and alleys above the ground and under it, is exclusive and absolute Muslim property, and no one else has any rights to even one grain of earth in it."[44][45]
In a Makor Rishon interview, published on May 22, 1998, the Imam of al-Aqsa Mosque and the PA?s Jerusalem Mufti Akrem Tzabari announced that ?Jews have no right to the Temple Mount.?[46]
"Outside of what is mentioned written in the Old and New Testaments, there is no tangible evidence of any Jewish traces remains in the old city of Jerusalem and its immediate vicinity."?Palestinian Authority Information Ministry Press Release, December 10, 1997
Quite the model of civility in an ocean of strife.
"The claims being made by the rulers of Israel and its rabbis about the alleged Temple are pure fabrications without any base or foundation."?Statement by the Higher Islamic Authority of Palestine Al-Quds (PA), December 28, 2001 (Translation by BBC Worldwide Monitoring)
Sheikh Raad Salah - head of the Islamic Movement in Israel has stated: "We remind, for the 1,000th time, that the entire Al-Aqsa mosque, including all of its area and alleys above the ground and under it, is exclusive and absolute Muslim property, and no one else has any rights to even one grain of earth in it."[44][45]
In a Makor Rishon interview, published on May 22, 1998, the Imam of al-Aqsa Mosque and the PA?s Jerusalem Mufti Akrem Tzabari announced that ?Jews have no right to the Temple Mount.?[46]
"Outside of what is mentioned written in the Old and New Testaments, there is no tangible evidence of any Jewish traces remains in the old city of Jerusalem and its immediate vicinity."?Palestinian Authority Information Ministry Press Release, December 10, 1997
Quite the model of civility in an ocean of strife.
needs to get out more
Thanks for addressing that issue, John R. I couldn't believe what I was reading and was about to take fabian's head off, but I had too much rage against the ignorance of such thoughts and actions which he stated. Sometimes I feel like I am touching the bottom of the ocean. It can be a very shallow world in which we exist.
Well, originally I came in to get some free entertainment, trainwreck stylie, from a 6thgen thread, which never fail to deliver from post one. And, while reading, came upon that black hole post from fabian. That got me worked up, and I continued to read to see if anyone took issue with it, other than me(sadly, in print, no) Then along comes this gem from the Duchess:
I have been reading some of your threads, and well......wow, sounds applicable to uh........you.
Classic. Kind of brought my mood up a little. But I'm stunned that people still think that way anymore. Maybe I misread things. I hope so...
SoWal Expert
Well, originally I came in to get some free entertainment, trainwreck stylie, from a 6thgen thread, which never fail to deliver from post one. And, while reading, came upon that black hole post from fabian. That got me worked up, and I continued to read to see if anyone took issue with it, other than me(sadly, in print, no) Then along comes this gem from the Duchess:
Classic. Kind of brought my mood up a little. But I'm stunned that people still think that way anymore. Maybe I misread things. I hope so...
I totally missed Fabian's ignorant post, or I would have either lost my mind after reading it or worked very hard to sit on my hands and try to be "understanding". I'm hoping that someone is playing a not-so-funny joke on us.
Checking your forum account
Please wait while we verify your forum account.