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The Trouble with Islam

6thGen avatar
Beach Fanatic
12,228 views
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009890

Here is a former terrorist talking about the dangers of appeasement.

The Trouble With Islam
Sadly, mainstream Muslim teaching accepts and promotes violence.

BY TAWFIK HAMID
Tuesday, April 3, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT

Not many years ago the brilliant Orientalist, Bernard Lewis, published a short history of the Islamic world's decline, entitled "What Went Wrong?" Astonishingly, there was, among many Western "progressives," a vocal dislike for the title. It is a false premise, these critics protested. They ignored Mr. Lewis's implicit statement that things have been, or could be, right.

But indeed, there is much that is clearly wrong with the Islamic world. Women are stoned to death and undergo clitorectomies. Gays hang from the gallows under the approving eyes of the proponents of Shariah, the legal code of Islam. Sunni and Shia massacre each other daily in Iraq. Palestinian mothers teach 3-year-old boys and girls the ideal of martyrdom. One would expect the orthodox Islamic establishment to evade or dismiss these complaints, but less happily, the non-Muslim priests of enlightenment in the West have come, actively and passively, to the Islamists' defense.

These "progressives" frequently cite the need to examine "root causes." In this they are correct: Terrorism is only the manifestation of a disease and not the disease itself. But the root-causes are quite different from what they think. As a former member of Jemaah Islamiya, a group led by al Qaeda's second in command, Ayman al-Zawahiri, I know firsthand that the inhumane teaching in Islamist ideology can transform a young, benevolent mind into that of a terrorist. Without confronting the ideological roots of radical Islam it will be impossible to combat it. While there are many ideological "rootlets" of Islamism, the main tap root has a name--Salafism, or Salafi Islam, a violent, ultra-conservative version of the religion.

It is vital to grasp that traditional and even mainstream Islamic teaching accepts and promotes violence. Shariah, for example, allows apostates to be killed, permits beating women to discipline them, seeks to subjugate non-Muslims to Islam as dhimmis and justifies declaring war to do so. It exhorts good Muslims to exterminate the Jews before the "end of days." The near deafening silence of the Muslim majority against these barbaric practices is evidence enough that there is something fundamentally wrong.

The grave predicament we face in the Islamic world is the virtual lack of approved, theologically rigorous interpretations of Islam that clearly challenge the abusive aspects of Shariah. Unlike Salafism, more liberal branches of Islam, such as Sufism, typically do not provide the essential theological base to nullify the cruel proclamations of their Salafist counterparts. And so, for more than 20 years I have been developing and working to establish a theologically-rigorous Islam that teaches peace.

Yet it is ironic and discouraging that many non-Muslim, Western intellectuals--who unceasingly claim to support human rights--have become obstacles to reforming Islam. Political correctness among Westerners obstructs unambiguous criticism of Shariah's inhumanity. They find socioeconomic or political excuses for Islamist terrorism such as poverty, colonialism, discrimination or the existence of Israel. What incentive is there for Muslims to demand reform when Western "progressives" pave the way for Islamist barbarity? Indeed, if the problem is not one of religious beliefs, it leaves one to wonder why Christians who live among Muslims under identical circumstances refrain from contributing to wide-scale, systematic campaigns of terror.





Politicians and scholars in the West have taken up the chant that Islamic extremism is caused by the Arab-Israeli conflict. This analysis cannot convince any rational person that the Islamist murder of over 150,000 innocent people in Algeria--which happened in the last few decades--or their slaying of hundreds of Buddhists in Thailand, or the brutal violence between Sunni and Shia in Iraq could have anything to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Western feminists duly fight in their home countries for equal pay and opportunity, but seemingly ignore, under a fa?ade of cultural relativism, that large numbers of women in the Islamic world live under threat of beating, execution and genital mutilation, or cannot vote, drive cars and dress as they please.

The tendency of many Westerners to restrict themselves to self-criticism further obstructs reformation in Islam. Americans demonstrate against the war in Iraq, yet decline to demonstrate against the terrorists who kidnap innocent people and behead them. Similarly, after the Madrid train bombings, millions of Spanish citizens demonstrated against their separatist organization, ETA. But once the demonstrators realized that Muslims were behind the terror attacks they suspended the demonstrations. This example sent a message to radical Islamists to continue their violent methods.

Western appeasement of their Muslim communities has exacerbated the problem. During the four-month period after the publication of the Muhammad cartoons in a Danish magazine, there were comparatively few violent demonstrations by Muslims. Within a few days of the Danish magazine's formal apology, riots erupted throughout the world. The apology had been perceived by Islamists as weakness and concession.

Worst of all, perhaps, is the anti-Americanism among many Westerners. It is a resentment so strong, so deep-seated, so rooted in personal identity, that it has led many, consciously or unconsciously, to morally support America's enemies.

Progressives need to realize that radical Islam is based on an antiliberal system. They need to awaken to the inhumane policies and practices of Islamists around the world. They need to realize that Islamism spells the death of liberal values. And they must not take for granted the respect for human rights and dignity that we experience in America, and indeed, the West, today.

Well-meaning interfaith dialogues with Muslims have largely been fruitless. Participants must demand--but so far haven't--that Muslim organizations and scholars specifically and unambiguously denounce violent Salafi components in their mosques and in the media. Muslims who do not vocally oppose brutal Shariah decrees should not be considered "moderates."





All of this makes the efforts of Muslim reformers more difficult. When Westerners make politically-correct excuses for Islamism, it actually endangers the lives of reformers and in many cases has the effect of suppressing their voices.
Tolerance does not mean toleration of atrocities under the umbrella of relativism. It is time for all of us in the free world to face the reality of Salafi Islam or the reality of radical Islam will continue to face us.

Dr. Hamid, a onetime member of Jemaah Islamiya, an Islamist terrorist group, is a medical doctor and Muslim reformer living in the West.

Replies

230
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#77
Well, originally I came in to get some free entertainment, trainwreck stylie, from a 6thgen thread, which never fail to deliver from post one. And, while reading, came upon that black hole post from fabian. That got me worked up, and I continued to read to see if anyone took issue with it, other than me(sadly, in print, no) Then along comes this gem from the Duchess:



Classic. Kind of brought my mood up a little. But I'm stunned that people still think that way anymore. Maybe I misread things. I hope so...

Think what way? I wish I could say that I was stunned that people like Tom Robbins would love to see their country get their "butts kicked", but I'm not. The defeatist rhetoric is pretty popular these days.
TNJed avatar
Beach Fanatic
#78
Fabian is a fraud. I don't believe a word he says especially after posting his wife gave premature birth to their child which he has yet to explain. I like to give everyone the benefit of doubt but with him my doubt has run out.

I realize I have the option of not reading his threads but it's hard to avoid them, never knowing in which topic he'll inject his manifesto. I'd say ignore him and he'll give up, but I think we know by now that doesn't work. :roll:

Hugs and kisses mi amigo loco.
John R avatar
needs to get out more
#79
Think what way? I wish I could say that I was stunned that people like Tom Robbins would love to see their country get their "butts kicked", but I'm not. The defeatist rhetoric is pretty popular these days.

think the way fabian described his visit with the infidel doctor...
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#80
think the way fabian described his visit with the infidel doctor...

Gotcha. Fabian PMed me and told me that he went with the Muslim doctor because the colored one had sticky watermelon juice all over one hand and a fried chicken wing in the other. Or whatever it is those people eat. Damn, I miss Fuzzy at The Masters.
Bob avatar
SoWal Insider
#81
Gotcha. Fabian PMed me and told me that he went with the Muslim doctor because the colored one had sticky watermelon juice all over one hand and a fried chicken wing in the other. Or whatever it is those people eat. Damn, I miss Fuzzy at The Masters.
6thGen, Hold on to that anger for 10-15 more years.
Banned
#82
When a man is wrong he's wrong. and fortunately for me I'm wrong a lot. It is comforting know that I can always count on those around me to so quickly point it out. John I beg your forgiveness. You are one of the few on this board I get much enjoyment out of reading there post. Oh I meant their,sorry about that.
:roll:
Banned
#83
hell,I thought i was talking to johnrudy. The hell with you john R who do you think you are going out in public like that. It's back on:( :( :(
John R avatar
needs to get out more
#84
hell,I thought i was talking to johnrudy. The hell with you john R who do you think you are going out in public like that. It's back on:( :( :(

so, now that you realize it's john r, there's no remorese for your apparent bigotry? going out on you? remember, it's the internet, everything is public and permanent? you went out on yourself. showing again, another side of your real self.

and, i never realized we were on(or off) in the first place. can't wait for the fun.
Banned
#85
You know what you say is so true. Bigotry is a horrible thing. I just wish we all honestly understood how true that statement really is.:( having said that what about the Armenians and what they suffered under islamist extremist. it is worth noting that 6th Gen does have valid points on this subject.
organicmama avatar
Beach Fanatic
#86
Fabian, good thing he wasn't a Negro. I can't believe what I'm reading. You take your wife to the best in the area and then second guess your decision based on the fact that he was a Muslim? Did you think he was going to taint her by working on her, or insert a bomb into her??

Then, you allow him to work on you wife... Is she chattel? Did she have any say in the matter?

The foundation of trust you hold so highly, begins with the kindness and understanding you site, not after you qualify a person.

I will take the best in the industry, regardless of the color of their skin, or religious beliefs.

obviously I'm not speechless, but damn near... incredulous come to mind.

Thanks for addressing that issue, John R. I couldn't believe what I was reading and was about to take fabian's head off, but I had too much rage against the ignorance of such thoughts and actions which he stated. Sometimes I feel like I am touching the bottom of the ocean. It can be a very shallow world in which we exist.

Right on to both of you.... Maybe now he can claim that he's got a "Muslim doctor" proudly like others claim "I've got black friends" as if it washes away any possibility of prejudice.

If there was no prejudice, why was he nervous and why the H*** did the MD have to be apologetic about other people's actions? :bang: :bang: :bang: 2bfabian, would you want to be held accountable for someone else's actions that you did not know, just because they were the same race, religion or creed? One should only be held accountable for oneself.
organicmama avatar
Beach Fanatic
#87
I totally missed Fabian's ignorant post, or I would have either lost my mind after reading it or worked very hard to sit on my hands and try to be "understanding". I'm hoping that someone is playing a not-so-funny joke on us.

Me too. That's my hope.
Banned
#88
I do not wish to get in a long discussion with you as it is clear that you are fixed in your views. That is fine but for others reading this post, allow me to point out a couple of things. Quoting U.S networks, British news outlets, Israeli newspapers, and various blogs hardly makes up likely sources of moderate Islamic views. True al-jazeera is an Arab source but one with an agenda similar to its American counterpart. My guess is that MF's exposure to al-jazeera is limited to excerpts played on western news outlets. I am not sure where MF sees me "screaming" for censorship but whatever.
I am equally confused by MF's assertion that there was not enough outcry about gassing of the Kurds in the 1980's and therefore there is no nead for an outcry now about Iraqis dying. Check out this picture and article of Rumsfeld and Saddam meeting to help channel helicopters to the Iraqis to help use chemical weapons against the Iranians in the 80's. Quite ironic. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
There are basically two ways to look at the Iraq debacle-- a worldview and an American view. I choose a worldview; MF chooses an America-centric one. From a selfish standpoint, he is right. It doesn't hurt me in my easy life in ATL to watch things fall apart overseas. I am probably the fool to care about the rest of the world and how our actions affect it.
With that I leave you as I am off to some sweet N. Georgia mountain biking. I love this country.

your rude and slanderous assumptions are wrong as always. working with the un and friends and family from the middle east and abroad is where i gained my insight, information and exerience.
only an american who acquires his opinions from mass media or propaganda fed to americans believe that my view is "america-centric".

thus, by your very limited perspective, you are flippantly disregarding my opinions as "america-centric" out of your own "worldview" ignorance.

since your post had nothing factually valid to offer and was merely a diatribe of insults. i'm not sure why you'd bother. you don't really seem to care about the issues just appearing to be "right". narrow-minded indeed.

enjoy your bikeride!
organicmama avatar
Beach Fanatic
#89
Well, originally I came in to get some free entertainment, trainwreck stylie, from a 6thgen thread, which never fail to deliver from post one. And, while reading, came upon that black hole post from fabian. That got me worked up, and I continued to read to see if anyone took issue with it, other than me(sadly, in print, no)

I tried NOT to deal with it.

I keep hoping that one of you will pop up and say, "It's me! I've been pulling this outta my *** just to get a rise out of all of you!"

I am mostly just reading this thread thinking, "Wow! People really do think this way?!?!?!?!" But if a Muslim got on this board and started bashing Christians, there'd be no end to the reactions because, of course, once a good Christian is saved, they can do whatever the h*** they want to do because all is forgiven according to their laws. They can be mean as a snake but they'll get to see those "golden gates."

BTW, I am not anti-Christian, nor am I not a Christian. I am anti-"my way is the best way" that so many "religious right" Christians have.

If y'all (the ones that are posting this craziness) think that God is so dang simple minded that everything is only the way that you see it from your little tiny viewpoint, then have fun in your misery and hate.
Banned
#90
From your source:

"The claims being made by the rulers of Israel and its rabbis about the alleged Temple are pure fabrications without any base or foundation."?Statement by the Higher Islamic Authority of Palestine Al-Quds (PA), December 28, 2001 (Translation by BBC Worldwide Monitoring)

Sheikh Raad Salah - head of the Islamic Movement in Israel has stated: "We remind, for the 1,000th time, that the entire Al-Aqsa mosque, including all of its area and alleys above the ground and under it, is exclusive and absolute Muslim property, and no one else has any rights to even one grain of earth in it."[44][45]

In a Makor Rishon interview, published on May 22, 1998, the Imam of al-Aqsa Mosque and the PA?s Jerusalem Mufti Akrem Tzabari announced that ?Jews have no right to the Temple Mount.?[46]

"Outside of what is mentioned written in the Old and New Testaments, there is no tangible evidence of any Jewish traces remains in the old city of Jerusalem and its immediate vicinity."?Palestinian Authority Information Ministry Press Release, December 10, 1997

Quite the model of civility in an ocean of strife.

regardless of what is scientifically and archeaologically proven, isreal has given the temple mount to the muslims who built a mosque on top of it. academics and archaeologists are fighting the muslims to access important areas under and around the mosque, but they will not budge. science is of no interest to them - or it will prove something that will endanger their control of the land. in the meantime, noone is allowed anywhere near this piece of land unless they are muslim.
Banned
#91
if (window.showTocToggle) { var tocShowText = "show"; var tocHideText = "hide"; showTocToggle(); } Summary of Events Leading up to the Genocide

Somewhat surprisingly to many, Armenians and Turks lived in relative harmony in the Ottoman Empire for centuries. Armenians were known as the "loyal millet". During these times, although Armenians were not equal and had to put up with certain special hardships, taxes and second class citizenship, they were pretty well accepted and there was relatively little violent conflict. Things began to change for a number of reasons. Nationalism, a new force in the world, reared its head and made ethnic groupings self-conscious, and the Ottoman Empire began to crumble. It became known as "the sick man of Europe" and the only thing holding it together was the European powers' lack of agreement on how to split it up.
As other Christian minorities gained their independence one by one, the Armenians became more isolated as the only major Christian minority. Armenians and Turks began to have conflicting dreams of the future. Some Armenians began to call for independence like the Greeks and others had already received, while some Turks began to envision a new Pan-Turkic empire spreading all the way to Turkic speaking parts of Central Asia. Armenians were the only ethnic group in between these two major pockets of Turkish speakers and the nationalist Turks wanted to get rid of them altogether.
As European powers began to ask for assurances that Armenians receive better treatment, the government began to treat the Armenians worse and worse. From 1894-6 hundreds of thousands of Armenians died in the Hamidian Massacres ordered by Sultan Abdul Hamid II.
A coup by 'progressive' Young Turks in 1908 replacing the Sultans government was supported by Armenians. Unfortunately, promised reforms never came, and in fact a triumvirate of extreme Turkish nationalists took complete dictatorial control, Enver, Jemal and Talat. It was they who masterminded the plan to completely eradicate the Armenian race in a step towards fulfilling their pan-Turkic dreams.
The Genocide

The first genocide of the 20th century

http://www.sowal.com/index.php?title=Image:Geno3.JPG
Never forget it was Hitler who said nobody cared about the armenians and no one will care about the jews

Edited

Banned
#92
I'm glad we understand now why if we to let them arabs get away with it they would do every christian and jew in the world that way again. I may disagree with 6th Gin but honestly he is dead on point on this subject.
Beach Comber
#93
it is worth noting that 6th Gen does have valid points on this subject.

I may disagree with 6th Gin but honestly he is dead on point on this subject.

so which is it? do you agree or disagree with 6th "Gin"? I feel like I'm watching one kid run back and forth on a teeter totter.
John R avatar
needs to get out more
#94
You know what you say is so true. Bigotry is a horrible thing. I just wish we all honestly understood how true that statement really is.:( having said that what about the Armenians and what they suffered under islamist extremist. it is worth noting that 6th Gen does have valid points on this subject.

i understand exactly how true it is. i made a comment on it's very existance on this board, and i'm the bad guy for calling you out.

SORRY, not. i couldn't with a clear concience let a blatent statement like that pass. if my best friend said something like that, i'd call him on it. it astounds me that people go though life with such a belief system. did you make sure the doctor had a green card?

What about the armenians? i'm sure you and 6thgen have more than enough to discuss on that score.

btw, after hitting the period, please hit the space bar twice. it will make your diatribes less fatiguing to read.

Edited

Jdarg avatar
SoWal Expert
#95
I think Kurt should start the "Ugh! Argh! STFU!" forum, for threads like this one and quite a few others that come to mind....
Bob avatar
SoWal Insider
#96
I believe as this board grows in the numbers of users, threads such as this may become more prevalent. It is repellant and entertaining simultaneously. We may become SoWalMart.
Banned
#97
I believe as this board grows in the numbers of users, threads such as this may become more prevalent. It is repellant and entertaining simultaneously. We may become SoWalMart.

if only us pesky "outsiders" would disappear.
Banned
#98
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount



Most Orthodox rabbis, both those belonging to the Religious Zionist and the Haredi Orthodox streams of, have issued prohibitions against entering the Temple Mount because of the danger of entering the area of the Temple courtyard and the difficulty of fulfilling the ritual requirement of cleansing oneself with the ashes of a red heifer (see Numbers 19), and declared it punishable with karet, death by heavenly decree [27].

A Muslim Waqf has managed the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif continuously since the Muslim reconquest of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. Since taking control of the area in the Six-Day War, Israel has permitted the Waqf to retain internal administration of the site. Under this arrangement Jews and Christians are permitted to visit the site.

not entirely accurate, but interesting.
important to note, most isrealis aren't religious. most religious people don't belong to those sects.

Edited

Bob avatar
SoWal Insider
#99
if only us pesky "outsiders" would disappear.
I would say this guy has as much pent-up hatred as you.
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#100
6thGen, Hold on to that anger for 10-15 more years.

Bob, tell you what, next time, to let you know it's a joke, I'll grow a cheezy mustache and bring a watermelon and a sledgehammer.
You have introduced me to a whole new level of douchebaggery.

Edited

6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#101
I would say this guy has as much pent-up hatred as you.

Pointing out that Muslims are prone to violence, and some are no more civilized than my German Shepherd is akin to what he said? You know it was a Muslim who used to be involved in such groups that wrote the original article, right? Your moral equivalence knows no bounds.

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