http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009890
Here is a former terrorist talking about the dangers of appeasement.
The Trouble With Islam
Sadly, mainstream Muslim teaching accepts and promotes violence.
BY TAWFIK HAMID
Tuesday, April 3, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT
Not many years ago the brilliant Orientalist, Bernard Lewis, published a short history of the Islamic world's decline, entitled "What Went Wrong?" Astonishingly, there was, among many Western "progressives," a vocal dislike for the title. It is a false premise, these critics protested. They ignored Mr. Lewis's implicit statement that things have been, or could be, right.
But indeed, there is much that is clearly wrong with the Islamic world. Women are stoned to death and undergo clitorectomies. Gays hang from the gallows under the approving eyes of the proponents of Shariah, the legal code of Islam. Sunni and Shia massacre each other daily in Iraq. Palestinian mothers teach 3-year-old boys and girls the ideal of martyrdom. One would expect the orthodox Islamic establishment to evade or dismiss these complaints, but less happily, the non-Muslim priests of enlightenment in the West have come, actively and passively, to the Islamists' defense.
These "progressives" frequently cite the need to examine "root causes." In this they are correct: Terrorism is only the manifestation of a disease and not the disease itself. But the root-causes are quite different from what they think. As a former member of Jemaah Islamiya, a group led by al Qaeda's second in command, Ayman al-Zawahiri, I know firsthand that the inhumane teaching in Islamist ideology can transform a young, benevolent mind into that of a terrorist. Without confronting the ideological roots of radical Islam it will be impossible to combat it. While there are many ideological "rootlets" of Islamism, the main tap root has a name--Salafism, or Salafi Islam, a violent, ultra-conservative version of the religion.
It is vital to grasp that traditional and even mainstream Islamic teaching accepts and promotes violence. Shariah, for example, allows apostates to be killed, permits beating women to discipline them, seeks to subjugate non-Muslims to Islam as dhimmis and justifies declaring war to do so. It exhorts good Muslims to exterminate the Jews before the "end of days." The near deafening silence of the Muslim majority against these barbaric practices is evidence enough that there is something fundamentally wrong.
The grave predicament we face in the Islamic world is the virtual lack of approved, theologically rigorous interpretations of Islam that clearly challenge the abusive aspects of Shariah. Unlike Salafism, more liberal branches of Islam, such as Sufism, typically do not provide the essential theological base to nullify the cruel proclamations of their Salafist counterparts. And so, for more than 20 years I have been developing and working to establish a theologically-rigorous Islam that teaches peace.
Yet it is ironic and discouraging that many non-Muslim, Western intellectuals--who unceasingly claim to support human rights--have become obstacles to reforming Islam. Political correctness among Westerners obstructs unambiguous criticism of Shariah's inhumanity. They find socioeconomic or political excuses for Islamist terrorism such as poverty, colonialism, discrimination or the existence of Israel. What incentive is there for Muslims to demand reform when Western "progressives" pave the way for Islamist barbarity? Indeed, if the problem is not one of religious beliefs, it leaves one to wonder why Christians who live among Muslims under identical circumstances refrain from contributing to wide-scale, systematic campaigns of terror.
Politicians and scholars in the West have taken up the chant that Islamic extremism is caused by the Arab-Israeli conflict. This analysis cannot convince any rational person that the Islamist murder of over 150,000 innocent people in Algeria--which happened in the last few decades--or their slaying of hundreds of Buddhists in Thailand, or the brutal violence between Sunni and Shia in Iraq could have anything to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Western feminists duly fight in their home countries for equal pay and opportunity, but seemingly ignore, under a fa?ade of cultural relativism, that large numbers of women in the Islamic world live under threat of beating, execution and genital mutilation, or cannot vote, drive cars and dress as they please.
The tendency of many Westerners to restrict themselves to self-criticism further obstructs reformation in Islam. Americans demonstrate against the war in Iraq, yet decline to demonstrate against the terrorists who kidnap innocent people and behead them. Similarly, after the Madrid train bombings, millions of Spanish citizens demonstrated against their separatist organization, ETA. But once the demonstrators realized that Muslims were behind the terror attacks they suspended the demonstrations. This example sent a message to radical Islamists to continue their violent methods.
Western appeasement of their Muslim communities has exacerbated the problem. During the four-month period after the publication of the Muhammad cartoons in a Danish magazine, there were comparatively few violent demonstrations by Muslims. Within a few days of the Danish magazine's formal apology, riots erupted throughout the world. The apology had been perceived by Islamists as weakness and concession.
Worst of all, perhaps, is the anti-Americanism among many Westerners. It is a resentment so strong, so deep-seated, so rooted in personal identity, that it has led many, consciously or unconsciously, to morally support America's enemies.
Progressives need to realize that radical Islam is based on an antiliberal system. They need to awaken to the inhumane policies and practices of Islamists around the world. They need to realize that Islamism spells the death of liberal values. And they must not take for granted the respect for human rights and dignity that we experience in America, and indeed, the West, today.
Well-meaning interfaith dialogues with Muslims have largely been fruitless. Participants must demand--but so far haven't--that Muslim organizations and scholars specifically and unambiguously denounce violent Salafi components in their mosques and in the media. Muslims who do not vocally oppose brutal Shariah decrees should not be considered "moderates."
All of this makes the efforts of Muslim reformers more difficult. When Westerners make politically-correct excuses for Islamism, it actually endangers the lives of reformers and in many cases has the effect of suppressing their voices.
Tolerance does not mean toleration of atrocities under the umbrella of relativism. It is time for all of us in the free world to face the reality of Salafi Islam or the reality of radical Islam will continue to face us.
Dr. Hamid, a onetime member of Jemaah Islamiya, an Islamist terrorist group, is a medical doctor and Muslim reformer living in the West.
Replies
230
SoWal Insider
Bob, tell you what, next time, to let you know it's a joke, I'll grow a cheezy mustache and bring a watermelon and a sledgehammer.Let me change that...you need 15-20 years.
You have introduced me to a whole new level of douchebaggery.
Beach FanaticAuthor
Again - the author - "Dr. Hamid, a onetime member of Jemaah Islamiya, an Islamist terrorist group, is a medical doctor and Muslim reformer living in the West."
Beach FanaticAuthor
Let me change that...you need 15-20 years.
I'm guessing you'd prefer I take after you and direct the anger towards my race, class and country.
SoWal Insider
Again - the author - "Dr. Hamid, a onetime member of Jemaah Islamiya, an Islamist terrorist group, is a medical doctor and Muslim reformer living in the West."I've got an Army recruiter on the line here, and he says they can't use you.
Banned
Bob, you must stop eating that watermelon and try to understand that the western world goes contrary to everything Islamist believe. Its sad but true I love to aggravate people just like the next guy but on this subject your vision is obstructed. Further more I believe like 6th gen that it is essential to our national security to help Israel.But supply sided tax cuts I am still researching. No one wants Muslims to be this way they just are.
SoWal Expert
I think Kurt should start the "Ugh! Argh! STFU!" forum, for threads like this one and quite a few others that come to mind....
Meow
:clap_1: ...how about a Tapa Boca with that cup of Joe?
I can easily over look misspellings (even my own sometimes
), but the repeated spelling of Israel as Isreal perplexes me. Is that on purpose?
needs to get out more
thetroublewithislam.fabian.:roll: oranyofhisposts,really.toomuchworktoread,soanymeaningfulcontent(?)willprobablygetpassedover.likethedoctorstory.
Edited
SoWal Expert
thetroublewithislam.fabian.:roll: oranyofhisposts,really.toomuchworktoread,soanymeaningfulcontent(?)willprobablygetpassedover.likethedoctorstory.
Actually, I find this :roll: easier to read than fabian's.
FunnChef - AlisonCooks.com
I just finished reading this thread...and I have never read more tripe in my whole life...what a crock of crap. :roll: I take it as entertainment factor only...I am not pointing fingers or naming names, everyone is entitled to their opinions, some are just a bit too vehement and leave a rancid taste
30gAy...you make me laugh, as always!
Edited
Beach FanaticAuthor
I am not pointing fingers or naming names, everyone is entitled to their opinions, some are just a bit too vehement and leave a rancid taste
30gAy...you make me laugh, as always!
OK, now that the hens have chimed in, let me ask this.
Allifun, Tootsie, Miss Kitty, and the rest of the fairer sex,
How do you feel about the rights granted women under Islamic law?
30Gay,
What are your thoughts on Islamic law's demand that open homosexuals be executed?
Bob, Organic Momma and other non-Christians, Jews or Muslims,
What are your thoughts on Islamic law's calling for you to be executed? Bob, would you call the people that want to kill you because of your religious beliefs "angry" or "civil"?
And any Jews or Christians,
How do plan to decorate your place in the ghetto?
These are not age old laws that are now ignored. There were invited guests to argue for implementation of sharia at Oxford last week. The Islamic Party is quite open about adherence to Islamic law, the sharia. Just because this doesn?t make you feel good, or because it sounds ?rancid?, doesn?t make it less true. Instead of telling me how ignorant I am, why don?t you address your problems with Islamic law?
SoWal Expert
My thoughts on religion, whether it be Islam, Christianity, or any other, is that I don't buy into any religion which encourages its believers to force "non-believers" into the religion by fear.
Beach FanaticAuthor
My thoughts on religion, whether it be Islam, Christianity, or any other, is that I don't buy into any religion which encourages its believers to force "non-believers" into the religion by fear.
I wouldn't have as much of a problem with Islam was not as much of a political party as it was a religion. Or I wouldn't have a problem with it if it was all old text or theory. My main problem with it is the whole flying airplanes into buildings and strapping bombs to mentally retarded folks and sending them into crowded Jewish areas. That's not really jiving with what I'd guess Bob would call civil. But it isn't really nice or comfortable to talk about this stuff, so maybe we should change the subject to something like evil developers putting up a golf course on an old sod farm. Those flags have to be obstructing someone's view of the rest of the sod farm.
SoWal Insider
OK, now that the hens have chimed in, let me ask this.Dear thoughtful 6thGen, The boogymen towelheads are coming to get you today. They are swimming across the Atlantic due to increased airport security. Be afraid, and make others afraid[threat level rainbow o' fear]. Stir up the hatred for those that are different than you, and attack them first on their home soil. Be prepared to fight everyone that disagrees with you, because it's hard work and you draw your inspiration from the blue-eyed King James Jesus. Smile for the cameras, as you tell everyone America is delivering a big ole' fashion serving of democracy for all. Open up as many military bases across the Middle East as McDonalds so that you may protect your interests[oil]. Be prepared to stay forever[see Korea]. This is the foreign policy and worldview of an uninquisitive,spoiled, idiot. Would you like to own that legacy 6thGen?
Allifun, Tootsie, Miss Kitty, and the rest of the fairer sex,
How do you feel about the rights granted women under Islamic law?
30Gay,
What are your thoughts on Islamic law's demand that open homosexuals be executed?
Bob, Organic Momma and other non-Christians, Jews or Muslims,
What are your thoughts on Islamic law's calling for you to be executed? Bob, would you call the people that want to kill you because of your religious beliefs "angry" or "civil"?
And any Jews or Christians,
How do plan to decorate your place in the ghetto?
These are not age old laws that are now ignored. There were invited guests to argue for implementation of sharia at Oxford last week. The Islamic Party is quite open about adherence to Islamic law, the sharia. Just because this doesn’t make you feel good, or because it sounds “rancid”, doesn’t make it less true. Instead of telling me how ignorant I am, why don’t you address your problems with Islamic law?
Edited
Beach Fanatic
OK, now that the hens have chimed in, let me ask this.
Allifun, Tootsie, Miss Kitty, and the rest of the fairer sex,
How do you feel about the rights granted women under Islamic law?
30Gay,
What are your thoughts on Islamic law's demand that open homosexuals be executed?
Bob, Organic Momma and other non-Christians, Jews or Muslims,
What are your thoughts on Islamic law's calling for you to be executed? Bob, would you call the people that want to kill you because of your religious beliefs "angry" or "civil"?
And any Jews or Christians,
How do plan to decorate your place in the ghetto?
These are not age old laws that are now ignored. There were invited guests to argue for implementation of sharia at Oxford last week. The Islamic Party is quite open about adherence to Islamic law, the sharia. Just because this doesn’t make you feel good, or because it sounds “rancid”, doesn’t make it less true. Instead of telling me how ignorant I am, why don’t you address your problems with Islamic law?
6thgen, I didn't say I wasn't Christian. I specifically said that so as not to be classified one way or the other. What I said was that I don't agree with forcing religious beliefs on others and that the Christian religious right was full of that.
I'm one of those hippie types that you love to hate for accepting people as individuals, regardless of a difference of opinion. Even you, my friend. That doesn't mean that I am don't have Judeo-Christian beliefs. Actually, Christ was the one who said, "Love your neighbor." Sounds like you don't follow his beliefs, but the beliefs of his followers that kind of screwed up that law. Christ was full of unconditional love, not the "I love you ONLY if you are just like me" that you and so many others push in people's faces.
Edited
Beach FanaticAuthor
Bob,
Are you going to address the Koran's official position, or are you going to call me an idiot, throw around a bunch of strawmen and red herrings, and non sequiturs? At least we've teamed up to finally find something you do well.
Are you going to address the Koran's official position, or are you going to call me an idiot, throw around a bunch of strawmen and red herrings, and non sequiturs? At least we've teamed up to finally find something you do well.
Beach FanaticAuthor
6thgen, I didn't say I wasn't Christian. I specifically said that so as not to be classified one way or the other. What I said was that I don't agree with forcing religious beliefs on others and that the Christian religious right was full of that.
I'm one of those hippie types that you love to hate for accepting people as individuals, regardless of a difference of opinion. Even you, my friend. That doesn't mean that I am don't have Judeo-Christian beliefs. Actually, Christ was the one who said, "Love your neighbor." Sounds like you don't follow his beliefs, but the beliefs of his followers that kind of screwed up that law. Christ was full of unconditional love, not the "I love you ONLY if you are just like me" that you and so many others push in people's faces.
My apologies, I misread that. And I don't know why I've been lumped in with the Pat Robertsons. The only time I agree with them is on the means, not necessarily the ends (i.e. going for the "strict constructionist" judges rather than "living Constitution" judges). Also, I have a good amount of hippie friends, so while it's easier to vilify me when you box me in as something, it's not necessarily true. As for the last paragraph, it reminds me of this by Jonah Goldberg - "Saying we need a political solution is as helpful as saying "give peace a chance." Peace requires more than such pie-eyed verbiage. In the real world, peace has no chance until the people who want to give death squads another shot have been dispatched from the scene. It reminds me of the liberal obsession in the 1980s with getting inner-city gangs to settle their differences with break-dance competitions."
SoWal Insider
Bob,
Are you going to address the Koran's official position, or are you going to call me an idiot, throw around a bunch of strawmen and red herrings, and non sequiturs? At least we've teamed up to finally find something you do well.[/QUOTEThere's no need to call you an idiot. The Koran has been around a long time, and the problem of technology and petro-dollars has finally caught up with us. Targeting Islam as the big problem with the world will just throw us into perpetual war. Leaving people alone to their own beliefs and religions has been stated as the cornerstone of our country. Leaving people alone does not preclude killing terrorists. Assuming others will agree with our values and institutions is the hallmark of idiocy.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
...and then the 3rd engineer says, "You're both wrong. God must have been a Civil Engineer, because only they would run a sewer line through a recreational area."
Ok, good work everybody. We'll pick this up tomorrow with more improv work on displaced Islamic sea turtles due to seawalls built from non-recyclable Seaside gazebos and For Sale signs.
aaaaaand, end scene.
Ok, good work everybody. We'll pick this up tomorrow with more improv work on displaced Islamic sea turtles due to seawalls built from non-recyclable Seaside gazebos and For Sale signs.
needs to get out more
c'mon TNJed, you know this thread has a realistic shelf life of at least till Monday;-) fabian hasn't chimed in yet today, and 6thgen has a stack of dead horses out behind the proverbial woodshed.
Beach Fanatic
My apologies, I misread that. And I don't know why I've been lumped in with the Pat Robertsons. The only time I agree with them is on the means, not necessarily the ends (i.e. going for the "strict constructionist" judges rather than "living Constitution" judges). Also, I have a good amount of hippie friends, so while it's easier to vilify me when you box me in as something, it's not necessarily true. As for the last paragraph, it reminds me of this by Jonah Goldberg - "Saying we need a political solution is as helpful as saying "give peace a chance." Peace requires more than such pie-eyed verbiage. In the real world, peace has no chance until the people who want to give death squads another shot have been dispatched from the scene. It reminds me of the liberal obsession in the 1980s with getting inner-city gangs to settle their differences with break-dance competitions."
6thgen, I'm more of a "fix the s*** in your own backyard type." I am not saying that to you, specifically. My thought is more along the line of "Be the change you want to see in the world." I've been the "Give peace a chance" hippie
and know that it doesn't work that way. I'm working on fixin' stuff in my own home, vicinity, etc., if you know what I mean.It doesn't mean that I don't care about what's going on in other places or want to change things there. I simply feel that Americans in general don't look at the hell we have here in so many ways. We like to look outward, to other countries and point fingers so that we don't have to look at ourselves. And I feel that Christians have that issue, also. I can speak that way because I grew up in a very conservative, "convert every non-Christian to our way" household. It's human nature to want to point out the problems of everyone else and not one's own.
I am not trying to put you or anyone else in a box. If you put someone in a box, it only means that you are putting yourself in the same confining space. I have very Christian friends, along with Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Agnostic & everything in between. I have liberal and conservative friends. I am not going to sit there and tell anyone to change because that's who they are and part of why I love them so.
I do believe in collective consciousness in regards to world issues from the past (i.e., slavery, Hitler, etc.) and the present (all the things we are discussing on this thread and many more). History tells us that many knew what the hell Hitler was doing and they turned a blind eye to it until it was too late. Same thing with any issue of the past and present. We, as humans, allow this insanity to happen right under our noses, until it's too late to do anything about it without war and more hate.
By saying that, if you combine your points with the points of others on this board to paint a whole picture of the s*** that's going on, we'd all see that everyone has part of the truth. Yes, the others point that the U.S. government aided many of the atrocities in the beginning and now want to say, "Hey! What the hell!?!?! We had no idea this was going on!" when in truth, they knew the whole time. And your point that, okay, what are we going to do about this craziness now is also valid. Yes, I have simplified the hell out of both sides, but that's the point. Simplify it, sit back and see where there are similarities and where the real Truth lies and then go from there. It's a messy, horrid situation.
I am working my a$$ off to eradicate hate & anger in myself, teach my children not to be that way and maybe be an example to others. That might sound simplistic but as others are doing the same thing, change will happen.
On that, I will not lump all Muslims together in one category. I do not do that with Christians, Jews, or any other religious or spiritual belief. I do feel that every religion has it's very conservative, narrow minded sects that want to get rid of anyone else that's not like them in some form or another.
SoWal Insider
c'mon TNJed, you know this thread has a realistic shelf life of at least till Monday;-) fabian hasn't chimed in yet today, and 6thgen has a stack of dead horses out behind the proverbial woodshed.Axis of evil dead horse. Free beatings for all!!
Beach Fanatic
...I'm more of a "fix the s*** in your own backyard type." I am not saying that to you, specifically. My thought is more along the line of "Be the change you want to see in the world." I've been the "Give peace a chance" hippie
It doesn't mean that I don't care about what's going on in other places or want to change things there. I simply feel that Americans in general don't look at the hell we have here in so many ways. We like to look outward, to other countries and point fingers so that we don't have to look at ourselves. And I feel that Christians have that issue, also. I can speak that way because I grew up in a very conservative, "convert every non-Christian to our way" household. It's human nature to want to point out the problems of everyone else and not one's own.
I agree totally and can relate. Did you know that only roughly 15% of Americans even own a passport? And even less ever use them. Wonder how many of those 15% are because they naturalized here from another country?
My wish is that more Americans would talk less and travel more. It's a big world out there with lots of ideas, cultures and beautiful people. I may be preaching to the choir here and not anyone specific. I'm just sayin'.
Beach Fanatic
I agree totally and can relate. Did you know that only roughly 15% of Americans even own a passport? And even less ever use them. Wonder how many of those 15% are because they naturalized here from another country?
My wish is that more Americans would talk less and travel more. It's a big world out there with lots of ideas, cultures and beautiful people. I may be preaching to the choir here and not anyone specific. I'm just sayin'.
Agree!:clap_1: My passport has expired 'cuz it's been since 2000 that I've traveled outside the U.S., but there are so many beautiful people in this world. Going to get mine renewed and get the kids' theirs later this summer.
But, even in our little worlds, you can find diversity. I went to UGA, truly one of the "whitest" universities you can find... and I had friends from all over the world & all types of beliefs and values. You can enrich your life just by being willing to come out of your own viewpoint.
Beach FanaticAuthor
Organic Momma,
I think you kind of get my point. I could go on, but I'm hoping people start to catch on before they try to build an Atlantic Wall (Bob, smash the watermelon with the sledgehammer here). On a side note, your signature quote kind of reminds me of George McFly.
Bob,
From your last post, I don't believe you've been eating as much of the above's fertilizer as I originally thought. We are in a mess, but retreating doesn't make it go away. Nor does never invading Iraq.
I think you kind of get my point. I could go on, but I'm hoping people start to catch on before they try to build an Atlantic Wall (Bob, smash the watermelon with the sledgehammer here). On a side note, your signature quote kind of reminds me of George McFly.
Bob,
From your last post, I don't believe you've been eating as much of the above's fertilizer as I originally thought. We are in a mess, but retreating doesn't make it go away. Nor does never invading Iraq.
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