http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009890
Here is a former terrorist talking about the dangers of appeasement.
The Trouble With Islam
Sadly, mainstream Muslim teaching accepts and promotes violence.
BY TAWFIK HAMID
Tuesday, April 3, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT
Not many years ago the brilliant Orientalist, Bernard Lewis, published a short history of the Islamic world's decline, entitled "What Went Wrong?" Astonishingly, there was, among many Western "progressives," a vocal dislike for the title. It is a false premise, these critics protested. They ignored Mr. Lewis's implicit statement that things have been, or could be, right.
But indeed, there is much that is clearly wrong with the Islamic world. Women are stoned to death and undergo clitorectomies. Gays hang from the gallows under the approving eyes of the proponents of Shariah, the legal code of Islam. Sunni and Shia massacre each other daily in Iraq. Palestinian mothers teach 3-year-old boys and girls the ideal of martyrdom. One would expect the orthodox Islamic establishment to evade or dismiss these complaints, but less happily, the non-Muslim priests of enlightenment in the West have come, actively and passively, to the Islamists' defense.
These "progressives" frequently cite the need to examine "root causes." In this they are correct: Terrorism is only the manifestation of a disease and not the disease itself. But the root-causes are quite different from what they think. As a former member of Jemaah Islamiya, a group led by al Qaeda's second in command, Ayman al-Zawahiri, I know firsthand that the inhumane teaching in Islamist ideology can transform a young, benevolent mind into that of a terrorist. Without confronting the ideological roots of radical Islam it will be impossible to combat it. While there are many ideological "rootlets" of Islamism, the main tap root has a name--Salafism, or Salafi Islam, a violent, ultra-conservative version of the religion.
It is vital to grasp that traditional and even mainstream Islamic teaching accepts and promotes violence. Shariah, for example, allows apostates to be killed, permits beating women to discipline them, seeks to subjugate non-Muslims to Islam as dhimmis and justifies declaring war to do so. It exhorts good Muslims to exterminate the Jews before the "end of days." The near deafening silence of the Muslim majority against these barbaric practices is evidence enough that there is something fundamentally wrong.
The grave predicament we face in the Islamic world is the virtual lack of approved, theologically rigorous interpretations of Islam that clearly challenge the abusive aspects of Shariah. Unlike Salafism, more liberal branches of Islam, such as Sufism, typically do not provide the essential theological base to nullify the cruel proclamations of their Salafist counterparts. And so, for more than 20 years I have been developing and working to establish a theologically-rigorous Islam that teaches peace.
Yet it is ironic and discouraging that many non-Muslim, Western intellectuals--who unceasingly claim to support human rights--have become obstacles to reforming Islam. Political correctness among Westerners obstructs unambiguous criticism of Shariah's inhumanity. They find socioeconomic or political excuses for Islamist terrorism such as poverty, colonialism, discrimination or the existence of Israel. What incentive is there for Muslims to demand reform when Western "progressives" pave the way for Islamist barbarity? Indeed, if the problem is not one of religious beliefs, it leaves one to wonder why Christians who live among Muslims under identical circumstances refrain from contributing to wide-scale, systematic campaigns of terror.
Politicians and scholars in the West have taken up the chant that Islamic extremism is caused by the Arab-Israeli conflict. This analysis cannot convince any rational person that the Islamist murder of over 150,000 innocent people in Algeria--which happened in the last few decades--or their slaying of hundreds of Buddhists in Thailand, or the brutal violence between Sunni and Shia in Iraq could have anything to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Western feminists duly fight in their home countries for equal pay and opportunity, but seemingly ignore, under a fa?ade of cultural relativism, that large numbers of women in the Islamic world live under threat of beating, execution and genital mutilation, or cannot vote, drive cars and dress as they please.
The tendency of many Westerners to restrict themselves to self-criticism further obstructs reformation in Islam. Americans demonstrate against the war in Iraq, yet decline to demonstrate against the terrorists who kidnap innocent people and behead them. Similarly, after the Madrid train bombings, millions of Spanish citizens demonstrated against their separatist organization, ETA. But once the demonstrators realized that Muslims were behind the terror attacks they suspended the demonstrations. This example sent a message to radical Islamists to continue their violent methods.
Western appeasement of their Muslim communities has exacerbated the problem. During the four-month period after the publication of the Muhammad cartoons in a Danish magazine, there were comparatively few violent demonstrations by Muslims. Within a few days of the Danish magazine's formal apology, riots erupted throughout the world. The apology had been perceived by Islamists as weakness and concession.
Worst of all, perhaps, is the anti-Americanism among many Westerners. It is a resentment so strong, so deep-seated, so rooted in personal identity, that it has led many, consciously or unconsciously, to morally support America's enemies.
Progressives need to realize that radical Islam is based on an antiliberal system. They need to awaken to the inhumane policies and practices of Islamists around the world. They need to realize that Islamism spells the death of liberal values. And they must not take for granted the respect for human rights and dignity that we experience in America, and indeed, the West, today.
Well-meaning interfaith dialogues with Muslims have largely been fruitless. Participants must demand--but so far haven't--that Muslim organizations and scholars specifically and unambiguously denounce violent Salafi components in their mosques and in the media. Muslims who do not vocally oppose brutal Shariah decrees should not be considered "moderates."
All of this makes the efforts of Muslim reformers more difficult. When Westerners make politically-correct excuses for Islamism, it actually endangers the lives of reformers and in many cases has the effect of suppressing their voices.
Tolerance does not mean toleration of atrocities under the umbrella of relativism. It is time for all of us in the free world to face the reality of Salafi Islam or the reality of radical Islam will continue to face us.
Dr. Hamid, a onetime member of Jemaah Islamiya, an Islamist terrorist group, is a medical doctor and Muslim reformer living in the West.
Replies
230Beach Fanatic
There are people who can see , accept, and understand differences in others and those that cannot. MF and 6thgen cannot. Others can post evidence and arguments to help them see the light till the cows come home and it will be useless. God herself could tell them they are wrong and they wouldn't buy it.
The rest of us should have a drink together and thank God we don't have all that pent up anger and hatred to deal with.
The rest of us should have a drink together and thank God we don't have all that pent up anger and hatred to deal with.
Beach FanaticAuthor
There are people who can see , accept, and understand differences in others and those that cannot. MF and 6thgen cannot. Others can post evidence and arguments to help them see the light till the cows come home and it will be useless. God herself could tell them they are wrong and they wouldn't buy it.
The rest of us should have a drink together and thank God we don't have all that pent up anger and hatred to deal with.
Do you know me, jackass?
SoWal Insider
Organic Momma,Borrow Gallagher's sledgehammer, and go wait on the beach. We are in a mess we created. There is no retreat, because our soon to be retired Serbo-Texan President has us stuck in a classic quandary. Enjoy your beach vigil and make sure the towels you smash are on the heads of terrorists, not tourists.
I think you kind of get my point. I could go on, but I'm hoping people start to catch on before they try to build an Atlantic Wall (Bob, smash the watermelon with the sledgehammer here). On a side note, your signature quote kind of reminds me of George McFly.
Bob,
From your last post, I don't believe you've been eating as much of the above's fertilizer as I originally thought. We are in a mess, but retreating doesn't make it go away. Nor does never invading Iraq.
Beach Fanatic
Organic Momma,
I think you kind of get my point. I could go on, but I'm hoping people start to catch on before they try to build an Atlantic Wall (Bob, smash the watermelon with the sledgehammer here). On a side note, your signature quote kind of reminds me of George McFly.
Bob,
From your last post, I don't believe you've been eating as much of the above's fertilizer as I originally thought. We are in a mess, but retreating doesn't make it go away. Nor does never invading Iraq.
6thgen, I respect who you are in that you have the balls to say what you think, in spite of the fact that there are those out there waiting to nail you on it. I don't agree with everything you say, nor do I expect you to agree with me, but know that I do get where you are coming from, no matter what.
My sig is a quote from a Buddhist monk.
When the bomb testing is going on here, my heart jumps and sinks at every explosion. I want to protect my family & automatically, that throws me into "worry mode." These are just "tests." Can you all imagine what it's like to live in a place where this goes on all the time and it could be your home that's bombed next? Can you say that hate & war, whether it's justified or not, is a good thing? Justified war, hate, anger.... there is no such thing. It's still war, hate & anger. That goes for the conservatives, liberals and all those that fall in the middle of the road.
I am not pro-war or invading anyone. Never will be. I believe that one day, people (that don't already get it) will get that war is an industry that makes a helluva lot of money for people, just like oil, pharmaceuticals and medical insurance.
These are things that people feel are necessary just the way they are and they really aren't. When we as people as a whole, decide to say STFU to those who want to be keep things as status quo, then things will change."Hell" is in the hearts & minds of people. So is "Heaven." It depends on which each of us chooses, as to what will happen.
Beach Fanatic
Do you know me, jackass?
need I say more
Beach Fanatic
Agree!:clap_1: My passport has expired 'cuz it's been since 2000 that I've traveled outside the U.S., but there are so many beautiful people in this world. Going to get mine renewed and get the kids' theirs later this summer.
Good deal. Start 'em off young!
Most places i've been the locals ask if I'm German, English or Canadian. When I tell them American, they're pretty surprised and excited to meet "one." Nothing changes hearts and minds quite like hittin' the bricks and doing a little ambassadorship of goodwill. It's humbling to experience being in the minority, nationality speaking.
Walk slow and carry a big grin!
(It's funny, as a teenager I thought of travel as a total waste of money. I always thought what kind of cool big-screen tv you could get for the price of a plane ticket. Seriously. Man, I was sooo wrong about the value of experience.)
Beach FanaticAuthor
6thgen, I respect who you are in that you have the balls to say what you think, in spite of the fact that there are those out there waiting to nail you on it. I don't agree with everything you say, nor do I expect you to agree with me, but know that I do get where you are coming from, no matter what.
My sig is a quote from a Buddhist monk.
When the bomb testing is going on here, my heart jumps and sinks at every explosion. I want to protect my family & automatically, that throws me into "worry mode." These are just "tests." Can you all imagine what it's like to live in a place where this goes on all the time and it could be your home that's bombed next? Can you say that hate & war, whether it's justified or not, is a good thing? Justified war, hate, anger.... there is no such thing. It's still war, hate & anger. That goes for the conservatives, liberals and all those that fall in the middle of the road.
I am not pro-war or invading anyone. Never will be. I believe that one day, people (that don't already get it) will get that war is an industry that makes a helluva lot of money for people, just like oil, pharmaceuticals and medical insurance.
"Hell" is in the hearts & minds of people. So is "Heaven." It depends on which each of us chooses, as to what will happen.
Thanks. As for the quote, I?m guessing your author?s legacy is one that kept his people in squalor. But that?s another topic.
As for not being ?pro war or invading anyone?, I?m sorry, you sound very nice, but that is one of the dumbest things I?ve read in a while. I think Hitler analogies are intellectually lazy, so forgive me here, but what would you have had the Allies who were attacked do in the mid 20th century? Sit back and take it? I basically subscribe to Locke?s views on war. Oversimplified, as long as someone is not threatening my life or liberty, I have no intention of threatening his.
SoWal Insider
Good deal. Start 'em off young!You are way ahead of the game. Next time you go overseas, take 6thGen and a roll of duct tape.
Most places i've been the locals ask if I'm German, English or Canadian. When I tell them American, they're pretty surprised and excited to meet "one." Nothing changes hearts and minds quite like hittin' the bricks and doing a little ambassadorship of goodwill. It's humbling to experience being in the minority, nationality speaking.
Walk slow and carry a big grin!
(It's funny, as a teenager I thought of travel as a total waste of money. I always thought what kind of cool big-screen tv you could get for the price of a plane ticket. Seriously. Man, I was sooo wrong about the value of experience.)
Beach Fanatic
30Gay,
What are your thoughts on Islamic law's demand that open homosexuals be executed?
Golly 6thGen, thanks for inviting me to the party. I?ve missed you too. Now to the question.
-Well let?s see, the fundamentalist ones most certainly advocate this.
Interestingly enough, so do fundamentalist Jews, from the book Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel by Israel Shahak:
Jewish fundamentalists have displayed severe enmity against Jews who adopt a different sexual life style. Many Israeli rabbis and the Israeli religious political patties in the 1990s reacted sharply against the increased visibility and power of the homosexual and lesbian communities in Israel. According to the Halacha {Jewish religious law), homosexuality is punishable by death by stoning. Many rabbis, when interviewed, indicated that they favored imposition of the death penalty for Jewish homosexual men.
And we all know about our favorite Fundamentalist Christians???
"Not only is homosexuality a sin, but anyone who supports fags is just as guilty as they are. You are both worthy of death (Romans 1:32)," Baptis Rev. Fred Phelps quoted by State Press (Arizona State University), March 11, 1998.
So the recurring theme here isn?t Islam, but fundamentalist religion in general.
Which is what makes all this muslim bashing so inherently lame- because you are looking at issues thru tunnel vision. But as someone so brilliantly pointed out earlier, 6th Gen you have a remarkable way of exposing the stupidity of though that got us into our current crisis.
Ironically, you are doing great damage to your own position. Please continue????..
P.S. ? I?m still waiting on you to explain your premise that ?Islam is the most violent civilization on history? from the last thread. I noticed you high tailed it outa there pretty quick once the facts started flying.
Interesting, given your tendency to remind us all of your intellect, I would have thought the opportunity to formulate and defend a logical argument would have appealed to you????
Beach Fanatic
not entirely accurate, but interesting.
important to note, most isrealis aren't religious. most religious people don't belong to those sects.
Important note #2:
Why are you so quick to point out the obvious, and defend one group while completely ignoring the same obvious conclusion about others?
Beach Fanatic
I'm guessing you'd prefer I take after you and direct the anger towards my race, class and country.
Oh that gives me a splendid idea!
Lets all poke fun at how easy it is to look at issues thru a tunnel vision approach to facts, and demonize any group, including our own.
Join me in a new thread where we give the 6thGen treatment to White people!
Beach Comber
What terrorizes me most is not so much the Islamic extremist, but rather my fellow Americans that display such a heavy-handed combination of arrogance, ignorance and hate. Why do I get the impression that a frequent drinker of this thread has a hero sized poster of Timothy McVeigh on his basement wall.
Banned
There are people who can see , accept, and understand differences in others and those that cannot. MF and 6thgen cannot. Others can post evidence and arguments to help them see the light till the cows come home and it will be useless. God herself could tell them they are wrong and they wouldn't buy it.
The rest of us should have a drink together and thank God we don't have all that pent up anger and hatred to deal with.
um yeah..that's it
honestly, i'm so shocked by the narrowmindedness of some of these answers i don't know how to respond.
i agree with alqueda in that it is quite easy to get americans fixated on themselves in these issues. they really do believe it's all about them. and all about their approach racism or diversity and it really has nothing to do with facist islamicists or their mission.
it's an incredibly patronizing view of the rest of the world.
i think that for some people like rancid who OBSESS on differences because they live and work and exist in such a homogoneous world they kind of only know a shopping mall version of multiculturalism. so i understand that somebody like that would critique my perception because someone like me, who has worked with NGOs and lived in other countries and has a family made up of people from other nations is just so foriegn to him.
you have an idea in your head of what it means to be tolerant of others, but you have never bothered listening to or living with others. the way you speak to me is proof of that. i would encourage you to try to look beyond your americanized view of the world.
ironically, it's VERY difficult for many americans to understand how much people from other country's admire and like america and it's way of life. AND the fact that they are free to criticize it
unlike the situations in their own countries. i truly believe that for many uneducated americans or propagandized americans, they believe to hate themselves and their country is the equivalent of being tolerant and understanding of others. it's so sad and such a xenophobic viewpoint.
Beach FanaticAuthor
30Gay,
First, I agree that fundamental religion is the problem. However, there is nothing in the Bible that supports what Rev. Fred Phelps stated. The wages of sin is death. However, the death that is being spoken of is in the eternal sense, not death by stoning. The world is full of folks who use the Bible to further their own means, but it does not make their distortions true. I'm not as familiar with Judaism, but I'll bet that the stonings of homosexuals in the name of Allah are far more recent and far more in number than any in Yahweh's.
As for the most violent statement, I thought that was a bit obvious hyperbole. Again, I'm not the one that started the Muslim bashing, I'm quoting a Muslim reformer, who I admire. I wish there were more Muslims like him.
First, I agree that fundamental religion is the problem. However, there is nothing in the Bible that supports what Rev. Fred Phelps stated. The wages of sin is death. However, the death that is being spoken of is in the eternal sense, not death by stoning. The world is full of folks who use the Bible to further their own means, but it does not make their distortions true. I'm not as familiar with Judaism, but I'll bet that the stonings of homosexuals in the name of Allah are far more recent and far more in number than any in Yahweh's.
As for the most violent statement, I thought that was a bit obvious hyperbole. Again, I'm not the one that started the Muslim bashing, I'm quoting a Muslim reformer, who I admire. I wish there were more Muslims like him.
Banned
here's some info from a great study done at harvard about how the media perpetuated propaganda in support of terrorists and how that bias affects americans and their lack of understanding about what really happens in the world.
i can assure you. it's middle-eastern people who are not facist that are horrified at how americans are not standing up to terrorism because they don't want to hurt "arabs". out of their racist viewpoint, they turn it into a race issue. the same way they have done with illegal immigration. moderate arabs and arabs who support democracy realize that it's actually racism that prevents most americans from standing up to extremist islamists. they recognize the patronizing racist view required to support this kind of action.
seriously, try to break out of your american-centric view and see the issues in a non-racist, non-bigoted manner. look at the facts. pretend that someone in your all-white neighborhood is engaging the world audience in the same fashion and then judge whether you find it violent, unjust or criminal. but all middle easterners ask is that you stop accomodating terrorism, intolerance and hate speech because of your white guilt. it's truly racist and horrible.
Back at the beginning of March 2007, HonestReporting's Backspin blog drew attention to a research paper published by Harvard University, which examined media coverage of the 2006 Lebanon War. The conclusion: Hezbollah succeeded at using the media as a weapon against Israel. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the mainstream media, having allowed themselves to be cynically manipulated by the Hezbollah propaganda machine, failed to report the findings of the Harvard study.
While the initial lack of publicity was disappointing, a number of blogs have recently revisited the study, generating a surge in internet-led interest. This prompted the Jerusalem Post to report:
"An open society, Israel, is victimized by its own openness," Marvin Kalb and Dr. Carol Saivetz of the Shorenstein Center of Harvard University concluded in their research paper, "The Israeli-Hezbollah War of 2006: The Media as a Weapon in Asymmetrical Conflict." "A closed sect, Hizbullah, can retain almost total control of the daily message of journalism and propaganda," manipulating its image to the world, the February 28 paper found.
"In strictly military terms, Israel did not lose to Hizbullah in this war, but it clearly did not win. In the war of information, news and propaganda, the battlefield central to Hizbullah's strategy, Israel lost this war," Kalb and Saivetz concluded.
Hizbullah was able to exploit skillfully the technological innovations wrought by the internet and the demands of the 24/7 news cycle, and constructed the narrative story line for the "first really 'live' war in history" where "the camera and the computer" were "weapons of war," they argued.
For Hizbullah, the Second Lebanon War was a "crucial battle in a broader, ongoing war, linking religious fundamentalism to Arab nationalism." Its chosen field of battle was the media and its strategic aim was to win the hearts and minds of the Arab world. Citing US and Australian military experts, Kalb and Saivetz stated Hizbullah believed the "historic struggle between Western modernity and Islamic fundamentalism will ultimately be resolved" on the "information battlefield." Hizbullah's media strategy was crafted to achieve this end, they said.
In the Second Lebanon War, Hizbullah limited access to Western reporters, "orchestrated" events and manipulated journalists with threats of expulsion if they violated its reporting rules. And the press largely complied with the restrictions that were "reminiscent of the Soviet era," Kalb and Saivetz found.
In one example cited by the paper, on a tour of a Shi'ite neighborhood of Beirut damaged by IAF air strikes, Hizbullah warned reporters not to "wander off on their own or speak to residents" and to photograph only approved sights. If the press violated these rules, "cameras would be confiscated, film or tape destroyed, and offending reporters would never be allowed access to Hizbullah officials or Hizbullah-controlled areas."
"At one point, apparently on cue, a Hizbullah minder signaled for ambulances to rev up their engines, set off their sirens and drive noisily down the street. The scene was orchestrated, designed to provide a photo op, and reporters went along for the ride." "So far as we know" Kalb and Saivetz stated, all of the reporters on the tour only CNN's Anderson Cooper reported on the "attempt to create and control a story." The rest of the press "followed the Hizbullah script." (You'll note Cooper's coverage was very different from other reporters on CNN.)
​Read the full JPost article here. The full Harvard publication (in pdf format) can be found on HonestReporting's Media Bias Research page.
HonestReporting addressed many of the mainstream media's failings during the Lebanon War, including doctored photography, the reporting of staged incidents as fact, and biased or inaccurate journalism. This comprehensive Harvard publication should be read by all media organizations that value high journalistic standards.
i can assure you. it's middle-eastern people who are not facist that are horrified at how americans are not standing up to terrorism because they don't want to hurt "arabs". out of their racist viewpoint, they turn it into a race issue. the same way they have done with illegal immigration. moderate arabs and arabs who support democracy realize that it's actually racism that prevents most americans from standing up to extremist islamists. they recognize the patronizing racist view required to support this kind of action.
seriously, try to break out of your american-centric view and see the issues in a non-racist, non-bigoted manner. look at the facts. pretend that someone in your all-white neighborhood is engaging the world audience in the same fashion and then judge whether you find it violent, unjust or criminal. but all middle easterners ask is that you stop accomodating terrorism, intolerance and hate speech because of your white guilt. it's truly racist and horrible.
Back at the beginning of March 2007, HonestReporting's Backspin blog drew attention to a research paper published by Harvard University, which examined media coverage of the 2006 Lebanon War. The conclusion: Hezbollah succeeded at using the media as a weapon against Israel. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the mainstream media, having allowed themselves to be cynically manipulated by the Hezbollah propaganda machine, failed to report the findings of the Harvard study.While the initial lack of publicity was disappointing, a number of blogs have recently revisited the study, generating a surge in internet-led interest. This prompted the Jerusalem Post to report:
"An open society, Israel, is victimized by its own openness," Marvin Kalb and Dr. Carol Saivetz of the Shorenstein Center of Harvard University concluded in their research paper, "The Israeli-Hezbollah War of 2006: The Media as a Weapon in Asymmetrical Conflict." "A closed sect, Hizbullah, can retain almost total control of the daily message of journalism and propaganda," manipulating its image to the world, the February 28 paper found.
"In strictly military terms, Israel did not lose to Hizbullah in this war, but it clearly did not win. In the war of information, news and propaganda, the battlefield central to Hizbullah's strategy, Israel lost this war," Kalb and Saivetz concluded.
Hizbullah was able to exploit skillfully the technological innovations wrought by the internet and the demands of the 24/7 news cycle, and constructed the narrative story line for the "first really 'live' war in history" where "the camera and the computer" were "weapons of war," they argued.
For Hizbullah, the Second Lebanon War was a "crucial battle in a broader, ongoing war, linking religious fundamentalism to Arab nationalism." Its chosen field of battle was the media and its strategic aim was to win the hearts and minds of the Arab world. Citing US and Australian military experts, Kalb and Saivetz stated Hizbullah believed the "historic struggle between Western modernity and Islamic fundamentalism will ultimately be resolved" on the "information battlefield." Hizbullah's media strategy was crafted to achieve this end, they said.
In the Second Lebanon War, Hizbullah limited access to Western reporters, "orchestrated" events and manipulated journalists with threats of expulsion if they violated its reporting rules. And the press largely complied with the restrictions that were "reminiscent of the Soviet era," Kalb and Saivetz found.
In one example cited by the paper, on a tour of a Shi'ite neighborhood of Beirut damaged by IAF air strikes, Hizbullah warned reporters not to "wander off on their own or speak to residents" and to photograph only approved sights. If the press violated these rules, "cameras would be confiscated, film or tape destroyed, and offending reporters would never be allowed access to Hizbullah officials or Hizbullah-controlled areas."
"At one point, apparently on cue, a Hizbullah minder signaled for ambulances to rev up their engines, set off their sirens and drive noisily down the street. The scene was orchestrated, designed to provide a photo op, and reporters went along for the ride." "So far as we know" Kalb and Saivetz stated, all of the reporters on the tour only CNN's Anderson Cooper reported on the "attempt to create and control a story." The rest of the press "followed the Hizbullah script." (You'll note Cooper's coverage was very different from other reporters on CNN.)​
HonestReporting addressed many of the mainstream media's failings during the Lebanon War, including doctored photography, the reporting of staged incidents as fact, and biased or inaccurate journalism. This comprehensive Harvard publication should be read by all media organizations that value high journalistic standards.
Banned
P.S. if any of you have actually read the quran, you would be truly horrified by how the terrorist and facist islamacists are using this religion to oppress and terrorize others.
Beach Fanatic
um yeah..that's it
honestly, i'm so shocked by the narrowmindedness of some of these answers i don't know how to respond.
i agree with alqueda in that it is quite easy to get americans fixated on themselves in these issues. they really do believe it's all about them. and all about their approach racism or diversity and it really has nothing to do with facist islamicists or their mission.
it's an incredibly patronizing view of the rest of the world.
i think that for some people like rancid who OBSESS on differences because they live and work and exist in such a homogoneous world they kind of only know a shopping mall version of multiculturalism. so i understand that somebody like that would critique my perception because someone like me, who has worked with NGOs and lived in other countries and has a family made up of people from other nations is just so foriegn to him.
you have an idea in your head of what it means to be tolerant of others, but you have never bothered listening to or living with others. the way you speak to me is proof of that. i would encourage you to try to look beyond your americanized view of the world.
ironically, it's VERY difficult for many americans to understand how much people from other country's admire and like america and it's way of life. AND the fact that they are free to criticize it
i truly believe that for many uneducated americans or propagandized americans, they believe to hate themselves and their country is the equivalent of being tolerant and understanding of others. it's so sad and such a xenophobic viewpoint.
Oh, you could not be more wrong about me. My background is much more international than you could imagine. Interesting how you extrapolated such a wrong headed observation from my posts. It only further cements my opinion that you are very naive.
SoWal Expert
needs to get out more
Do you know me, jackass?
6thgen, was that really called for? name calling and personal attacks?
Beach Fanatic
An educational exercise for MF and 6thGen: Take your list of ranting posts, substitute Christian for every time you said Muslim, America for each time you wrote Middle East, and then reread your posts.
You will find that your posts would sound exactly the same as the rantings of "Islamo-Fascists" (or whatever media term you are using).
If you two were in the other shoes and were living in Iraq, you would be leading some suicide bomber or death squad group.
You will find that your posts would sound exactly the same as the rantings of "Islamo-Fascists" (or whatever media term you are using).
If you two were in the other shoes and were living in Iraq, you would be leading some suicide bomber or death squad group.
Banned
30Gay,
First, I agree that fundamental religion is the problem. However, there is nothing in the Bible that supports what Rev. Fred Phelps stated. The wages of sin is death. However, the death that is being spoken of is in the eternal sense, not death by stoning. The world is full of folks who use the Bible to further their own means, but it does not make their distortions true. I'm not as familiar with Judaism, but I'll bet that the stonings of homosexuals in the name of Allah are far more recent and far more in number than any in Yahweh's.
As for the most violent statement, I thought that was a bit obvious hyperbole. Again, I'm not the one that started the Muslim bashing, I'm quoting a Muslim reformer, who I admire. I wish there were more Muslims like him.
Judaism and it's religious laws and courts are the predecessor for our own country's legal system. In Jewish law, the Sandedrin - the predecessor for our Supreme Court - was allowed to sentence someone who broke the law to a capital punishment, though while it was legal to punish someone by death, if I recall correctly, in ancient times, any judge in the Jewish system who does so is required to be called "murderous" by society and makes any decision on such a severe punishment with that knowledge.
Now I'm talking about the Sanhedrin of ancient times! it's important to remember that we are now in modern times, and Jewish law, as it's religion, and society and punishments have evolved and like most people of our times are obviously less barbaric than say the people's of 6AD.
Bear in mind, the law is a very different thing in Judaism, they invented the concept of arguing the validity, compassion and justness of a law is up for discussion and debate. It is part of the religion to debate the 613 commandments or religious laws and how they should be implemented or adapted depending on rabbi, etc.
Islam does not encourage debate or discussion and is very heterosexual (although it is considered culturally ok for men to have homosexual sex, so long as they keep it private and marry) male-dominated and authoritarian.
Just like Christianity, there are a number of denominations of Judaism and one can be extremely different from the next. Just like Christianity, while some denominations have homosexual rabbis, others consider it against Jewish law. But no criminal or capital punishment is advised or would be tolerated against a homosexual by any denomination of the Jewish faith.
It's important to note that in Jewish law the primary concern is to value life. For instance, today, Israel's military must comply with Jewish law, and thereby has a number of constraints and issues by which they are not allowed to harm another. While it is considered in compliance with the law to defend oneself the parameters for harming another under those auspices are much different than our own.
Beach Fanatic
30Gay,
First, I agree that fundamental religion is the problem. However, there is nothing in the Bible that supports what Rev. Fred Phelps stated. The wages of sin is death. However, the death that is being spoken of is in the eternal sense, not death by stoning. The world is full of folks who use the Bible to further their own means, but it does not make their distortions true. I'm not as familiar with Judaism, but I'll bet that the stonings of homosexuals in the name of Allah are far more recent and far more in number than any in Yahweh's.
Then why didn't you name this thread "The Trouble with Extremist Religion"?
Certain people of ALL religions mis-use and re-interpret their messages to justify horrible actions. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus you name it.
What I so strongly disagree with in this thread is the flipant demonizing of only one group.
How are you ever going to empower and begin a dialogue with progressive elements in Islam when you demonize the entire group so casually?
And how many of your criticisms are based on a comparison of secular, economically advanced democratic nations as compared to religiously oriented, third world countries?
Banned
An educational exercise for MF and 6thGen: Take your list of ranting posts, substitute Christian for every time you said Muslim, America for each time you wrote Middle East, and then reread your posts.
You will find that your posts would sound exactly the same as the rantings of "Islamo-Fascists" (or whatever media term you are using).
If you two were in the other shoes and were living in Iraq, you would be leading some suicide bomber or death squad group.
since i have never even hit or touched another human being in anger, even in sport, i seriously doubt that would be me.
the fact that you keep coming back with insults instead of information suggests that perhaps it is you with anger issue. a little self-reflection might be in order for you before you go on the attack again.
also, the middle east is not a one people or one way of life. much like america. so if you ever have the chance to meet someone outside of your white suburban neighborhood, please try and remember that, as much of what you say is very racially and culturally offensive to some.
Beach FanaticAuthor
6thgen, was that really called for? name calling and personal attacks?
"There are people who can see , accept, and understand differences in others and those that cannot. MF and 6thgen cannot."
He also said that I'm about to lead a suicide death squad, someone else compared me to McVeigh. I don't take him seriously, because I think he's dumber than a sack of hammers. Bob told someone to take me overseas with a roll of ductape and you don't hear me whining about that. If we want to upgrade the level of discourse you should start with some other folks. "Jackass" is pretty harmless.
SoWal Expert
An educational exercise for MF and 6thGen: Take your list of ranting posts, substitute Christian for every time you said Muslim, America for each time you wrote Middle East, and then reread your posts.:scratch:Interesting. If you do that, you basically get the message, "kill the Christian Extemists."
You will find that your posts would sound exactly the same as the rantings of "Islamo-Fascists" (or whatever media term you are using).
If you two were in the other shoes and were living in Iraq, you would be leading some suicide bomber or death squad group.
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