http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009890
Here is a former terrorist talking about the dangers of appeasement.
The Trouble With Islam
Sadly, mainstream Muslim teaching accepts and promotes violence.
BY TAWFIK HAMID
Tuesday, April 3, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT
Not many years ago the brilliant Orientalist, Bernard Lewis, published a short history of the Islamic world's decline, entitled "What Went Wrong?" Astonishingly, there was, among many Western "progressives," a vocal dislike for the title. It is a false premise, these critics protested. They ignored Mr. Lewis's implicit statement that things have been, or could be, right.
But indeed, there is much that is clearly wrong with the Islamic world. Women are stoned to death and undergo clitorectomies. Gays hang from the gallows under the approving eyes of the proponents of Shariah, the legal code of Islam. Sunni and Shia massacre each other daily in Iraq. Palestinian mothers teach 3-year-old boys and girls the ideal of martyrdom. One would expect the orthodox Islamic establishment to evade or dismiss these complaints, but less happily, the non-Muslim priests of enlightenment in the West have come, actively and passively, to the Islamists' defense.
These "progressives" frequently cite the need to examine "root causes." In this they are correct: Terrorism is only the manifestation of a disease and not the disease itself. But the root-causes are quite different from what they think. As a former member of Jemaah Islamiya, a group led by al Qaeda's second in command, Ayman al-Zawahiri, I know firsthand that the inhumane teaching in Islamist ideology can transform a young, benevolent mind into that of a terrorist. Without confronting the ideological roots of radical Islam it will be impossible to combat it. While there are many ideological "rootlets" of Islamism, the main tap root has a name--Salafism, or Salafi Islam, a violent, ultra-conservative version of the religion.
It is vital to grasp that traditional and even mainstream Islamic teaching accepts and promotes violence. Shariah, for example, allows apostates to be killed, permits beating women to discipline them, seeks to subjugate non-Muslims to Islam as dhimmis and justifies declaring war to do so. It exhorts good Muslims to exterminate the Jews before the "end of days." The near deafening silence of the Muslim majority against these barbaric practices is evidence enough that there is something fundamentally wrong.
The grave predicament we face in the Islamic world is the virtual lack of approved, theologically rigorous interpretations of Islam that clearly challenge the abusive aspects of Shariah. Unlike Salafism, more liberal branches of Islam, such as Sufism, typically do not provide the essential theological base to nullify the cruel proclamations of their Salafist counterparts. And so, for more than 20 years I have been developing and working to establish a theologically-rigorous Islam that teaches peace.
Yet it is ironic and discouraging that many non-Muslim, Western intellectuals--who unceasingly claim to support human rights--have become obstacles to reforming Islam. Political correctness among Westerners obstructs unambiguous criticism of Shariah's inhumanity. They find socioeconomic or political excuses for Islamist terrorism such as poverty, colonialism, discrimination or the existence of Israel. What incentive is there for Muslims to demand reform when Western "progressives" pave the way for Islamist barbarity? Indeed, if the problem is not one of religious beliefs, it leaves one to wonder why Christians who live among Muslims under identical circumstances refrain from contributing to wide-scale, systematic campaigns of terror.
Politicians and scholars in the West have taken up the chant that Islamic extremism is caused by the Arab-Israeli conflict. This analysis cannot convince any rational person that the Islamist murder of over 150,000 innocent people in Algeria--which happened in the last few decades--or their slaying of hundreds of Buddhists in Thailand, or the brutal violence between Sunni and Shia in Iraq could have anything to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Western feminists duly fight in their home countries for equal pay and opportunity, but seemingly ignore, under a fa?ade of cultural relativism, that large numbers of women in the Islamic world live under threat of beating, execution and genital mutilation, or cannot vote, drive cars and dress as they please.
The tendency of many Westerners to restrict themselves to self-criticism further obstructs reformation in Islam. Americans demonstrate against the war in Iraq, yet decline to demonstrate against the terrorists who kidnap innocent people and behead them. Similarly, after the Madrid train bombings, millions of Spanish citizens demonstrated against their separatist organization, ETA. But once the demonstrators realized that Muslims were behind the terror attacks they suspended the demonstrations. This example sent a message to radical Islamists to continue their violent methods.
Western appeasement of their Muslim communities has exacerbated the problem. During the four-month period after the publication of the Muhammad cartoons in a Danish magazine, there were comparatively few violent demonstrations by Muslims. Within a few days of the Danish magazine's formal apology, riots erupted throughout the world. The apology had been perceived by Islamists as weakness and concession.
Worst of all, perhaps, is the anti-Americanism among many Westerners. It is a resentment so strong, so deep-seated, so rooted in personal identity, that it has led many, consciously or unconsciously, to morally support America's enemies.
Progressives need to realize that radical Islam is based on an antiliberal system. They need to awaken to the inhumane policies and practices of Islamists around the world. They need to realize that Islamism spells the death of liberal values. And they must not take for granted the respect for human rights and dignity that we experience in America, and indeed, the West, today.
Well-meaning interfaith dialogues with Muslims have largely been fruitless. Participants must demand--but so far haven't--that Muslim organizations and scholars specifically and unambiguously denounce violent Salafi components in their mosques and in the media. Muslims who do not vocally oppose brutal Shariah decrees should not be considered "moderates."
All of this makes the efforts of Muslim reformers more difficult. When Westerners make politically-correct excuses for Islamism, it actually endangers the lives of reformers and in many cases has the effect of suppressing their voices.
Tolerance does not mean toleration of atrocities under the umbrella of relativism. It is time for all of us in the free world to face the reality of Salafi Islam or the reality of radical Islam will continue to face us.
Dr. Hamid, a onetime member of Jemaah Islamiya, an Islamist terrorist group, is a medical doctor and Muslim reformer living in the West.
Replies
230
SoWal Insider
well, first of all....you are confusing biblical texts with religious traditions.mf will fix the inferior religion
in fact, in islam the call for jihad has become incredibly mainstream in the religion during our generation unfortunately. it certainly doesn't mean that applies to all muslims, but it doesn't hurt to be accurate even when the news is not so pleasant.
SoWal Insider
that is the southern baptist interpretation of the bible. it is not the case for other christians.mf may or may not have attended a Baptist service once
Banned
mf may or may not have attended a Baptist service once
another enlightening contribution to the discussion
Beach Fanatic
well, first of all....you are confusing biblical texts with religious traditions.
in fact, in islam the call for jihad has become incredibly mainstream in the religion during our generation unfortunately. it certainly doesn't mean that applies to all muslims, but it doesn't hurt to be accurate even when the news is not so pleasant.
Of course I?m confused????trying to decipher biblical laws as compared to tradition and cross referenced against the myriad number of ways different sects interpret both is like trying to pin jello to the wall. That is exactly my point.- It is a confusing and open to gross misinterpretations.
But since you are interested in accuracy, please explain what ?call for jihad? has become mainstream. The Death to All Infidels? And exactly how are you defining jihad?
Banned
Cliff notes: Islam needs to be fixed
interesting that's your interpretation. says quite alot about your intolerance.
Beach Fanatic
honey, why on EARTH would you say i hate muslims? are you kidding me?
i actually raised $3million to save bosnian muslims. are you kidding me?
you people have clearly lost your minds. and i'm going to stop posting here. there is no point in having an intellectual discussion with people who small-minded and rude.
please do not direct your hate-speech at me again.
Good. If you are really gone. Your last few posts were incoherent and bordering on the schizophrenic.:clap_1:
SoWal Insider
interesting that's your interpretation. says quite alot about your intolerance.The solution to all the world's problems, unobtainable, as it is, is that you are most likely confronting the enemy when you look in the mirror. It's between the ears on that big head of yours mf, because that's where compromise begins. Shut down that judgement mode, and listen to the other side.
Beach Fanatic
*Off topic*
Wouldn't it just be great if Jerry Springer came along after one of these sling fests and give a wrap up commentary?
I miss Jerry.
Wouldn't it just be great if Jerry Springer came along after one of these sling fests and give a wrap up commentary?
I miss Jerry.
Banned
Of course I?m confused????trying to decipher biblical laws as compared to tradition and cross referenced against the myriad number of ways different sects interpret both is like trying to pin jello to the wall. That is exactly my point.- It is a confusing and open to gross misinterpretations.
But since you are interested in accuracy, please explain what ?call for jihad? has become mainstream. The Death to All Infidels? And exactly how are you defining jihad?
first of all, can i just suggest reading someone who is like BZILLION times more intelligent than i will ever be on the topic? Oriana Fallaci, she's a writer from Florence, Italy - her father was an activist against Mussolini. absolutely brilliant. i recommend "rage & pride" as well as any of her columns.
as for the definition of jihad...wow.. now you've opened up a can of worms
there are many definitions of jihad and several "understandings" of it!
the issue of a call for jihad also has to do with what is requested to be done to acheive jihad. in addition, what most westerners don't really understand is that both culturally and according to texts, it is not considered a sin or a bad thing to lie or decieve, so long as it is done for the greater good of the religion. that's an inherent cultural difference that alot of americans especially don't understand. they think "culture" means skin color, music, clothes or food.
i mean it's not some random mosque in iran now that's calling for jihad and death to america. it's from mosques in every nice suberb of the uk, or the slums of france and the HUGE somali congregations in nashville, or neighborhood mosques in detroit.
the fact that moderate muslims are being decried from the pulpit by imams in once "moderate" mosques for criticizing osama bin laden or defending women's rights. that did NOT used to be typical. it is very typical now. the truth is not pretty, but we do no good by ignoring it. and moderate muslims are being abandoned by their mosques and disbelieved by non-muslims who seem to want to live in an idealized world. why not help make it ideal instead of just pretend it is? let's respect moderate muslims by believing them and supporting them.
we can't quelch hate-speech. i know that we must protect all free speech even from the KKK and nazis, but we also must pay very clear attention to that speech and activity that could cause harm or impede the right to security and freedom for others.
here are some definitions, pick what one you think is accurate
jihad
In Islam, the central doctrine that calls on believers to combat the enemies of their religion. According to the Qur'an and the Hadith, jihad is a duty that may be fulfilled in four ways: by the heart, the tongue, the hand, or the sword. The first way (known in Sufism as the "greater jihad") involves struggling against evil desires. The ways of the tongue and hand call for verbal defense and right actions. The jihad of the sword involves waging war against enemies of Islam. Believers contend that those who die in combat become martyrs and are guaranteed a place in paradise. In the 20th and 21st centuries the concept of jihad has sometimes been used as an ideological weapon in the effort to combat Western influences and secular governments and to establish an ideal Islamic society.
Modern Middle East & North African Encyclopedia
The Arabic nouns juhd, mujahid, jihad, and ijtihad mean endeavor, training, exertion, effort, diligence, and fighting. "Traditionally jihad was understood to be justified for three reasons: to repel invasion or its threat, to punish those who had violated treaties, and to guarantee freedom for the propagation of Islam" (Abedi). According to Iranian ayatollah Morteza Mutahhari, Jihad as a defensive act is explained in the Hajj sura 22:38 - 41, where it is said that God gives permission (for warfare) to those who have been attacked. In an Islamic legal context, the term jihad is most often used to refer to a martial campaign in the cause of religion and is therefore frequently translated as "holy war." Many now would argue that there is no such thing as a holy war, and that Islam does not sanction war but rather defense of Islamic values (this is certainly the case in the longest conventional war between two Muslim nations, Iran and Iraq, 1980 - 1988). Iran called the war a sacred defense rather than a jihad.
According to classical Muslim legal theory, the only kind of lawful military conflict is jihad, and a jihad can only be used to fulfill at least one of two main objectives. The first is the effective spread of Muslim ideals and values into a region of society unmoved by the call to Islam. The second is defense of the Muslim community from external threats. In addition to discussing the conditions necessary to establish these objectives, Muslim teachings on jihad also deal with important related issues such as the immunity of noncombatants, ethical restrictions on the applications of destructive force, and the circumstances warranting armistice. In fact, the doctrine of jihad is probably best understood as being similar to the "just war" theory in Western Christian contexts. Over the course of the twentieth century, jihad discourse was polarized by modernists like Muhammad Shaltut (died 1963) who argue that, in the modern era, offensive jihad should only take the form of a peaceful propagation of Islam, and revolutionary Islamist groups such as Islamic Jihad, HAMAS, and Hizbullah, which maintain that Muslims around the world are obliged to use any available means to fight against the forces of Western imperialism.
Islamic Dictionary
jihad
The word jihad actually means "struggle, strive." The Arabic root of the word is jahada "to strive for." (The Arabic word for war is "harb.") Of the two types of jihad, the lesser type is the struggle against religious or political oppression, the second and greater is the soul's struggle with evil. Moderates think that while "jihad" might refer to an active war against an oppressive regime, such a war may be waged only against that regime, not innocent people. Radical Islamic fundamentalists assume that a jihad is a war without constraints.
ok...believe it or not. i have a life and i'm now just proscrastinating too many things that must get done!
Banned
Good. If you are really gone. Your last few posts were incoherent and bordering on the schizophrenic.:clap_1:
illiteracy is tragic.
SoWal Insider
*Off topic*I would prefer to watch the sunset video of Ronald Reagan's funeral while holding hands with mf. I miss Ronny. Hold me!
Wouldn't it just be great if Jerry Springer came along after one of these sling fests and give a wrap up commentary?
I miss Jerry.
Edited
Banned
The solution to all the world's problems, unobtainable, as it is, is that you are most likely confronting the enemy when you look in the mirror. It's between the ears on that big head of yours mf, because that's where compromise begins. Shut down that judgement mode, and listen to the other side.
if you have nothing to contribute to the conversation why do you bother?
you don't even know me and yet you've devoted your last 5 posts solely to insulting me. what do you hope to acheive?
SoWal Insider
first of all, can i just suggest reading someone who is like BZILLION times more intelligent than i will ever be on the topic? Oriana Fallaci, she's a writer from Florence, Italy - her father was an activist against Mussolini. absolutely brilliant. i recommend "rage & pride" as well as any of her columns.cliff notes: Islam is a lying, war-like religion ....i need to go criticize Seaside now
as for the definition of jihad...wow.. now you've opened up a can of worms
there are many definitions of jihad and several "understandings" of it!
the issue of a call for jihad also has to do with what is requested to be done to acheive jihad. in addition, what most westerners don't really understand is that both culturally and according to texts, it is not considered a sin or a bad thing to lie or decieve, so long as it is done for the greater good of the religion. that's an inherent cultural difference that alot of americans especially don't understand. they think "culture" means skin color, music, clothes or food.
i mean it's not some random mosque in iran now that's calling for jihad and death to america. it's from mosques in every nice suberb of the uk, or the slums of france and the HUGE somali congregations in nashville, or neighborhood mosques in detroit.
the fact that moderate muslims are being decried from the pulpit by imams in once "moderate" mosques for criticizing osama bin laden or defending women's rights. that did NOT used to be typical. it is very typical now. the truth is not pretty, but we do no good by ignoring it. and moderate muslims are being abandoned by their mosques and disbelieved by non-muslims who seem to want to live in an idealized world. why not help make it ideal instead of just pretend it is? let's respect moderate muslims by believing them and supporting them.
we can't quelch hate-speech. i know that we must protect all free speech even from the KKK and nazis, but we also must pay very clear attention to that speech and activity that could cause harm or impede the right to security and freedom for others.
here are some definitions, pick what one you think is accurate
jihad
In Islam, the central doctrine that calls on believers to combat the enemies of their religion. According to the Qur'an and the Hadith, jihad is a duty that may be fulfilled in four ways: by the heart, the tongue, the hand, or the sword. The first way (known in Sufism as the "greater jihad") involves struggling against evil desires. The ways of the tongue and hand call for verbal defense and right actions. The jihad of the sword involves waging war against enemies of Islam. Believers contend that those who die in combat become martyrs and are guaranteed a place in paradise. In the 20th and 21st centuries the concept of jihad has sometimes been used as an ideological weapon in the effort to combat Western influences and secular governments and to establish an ideal Islamic society.
Modern Middle East & North African Encyclopedia
The Arabic nouns juhd, mujahid, jihad, and ijtihad mean endeavor, training, exertion, effort, diligence, and fighting. "Traditionally jihad was understood to be justified for three reasons: to repel invasion or its threat, to punish those who had violated treaties, and to guarantee freedom for the propagation of Islam" (Abedi). According to Iranian ayatollah Morteza Mutahhari, Jihad as a defensive act is explained in the Hajj sura 22:38 - 41, where it is said that God gives permission (for warfare) to those who have been attacked. In an Islamic legal context, the term jihad is most often used to refer to a martial campaign in the cause of religion and is therefore frequently translated as "holy war." Many now would argue that there is no such thing as a holy war, and that Islam does not sanction war but rather defense of Islamic values (this is certainly the case in the longest conventional war between two Muslim nations, Iran and Iraq, 1980 - 1988). Iran called the war a sacred defense rather than a jihad.
According to classical Muslim legal theory, the only kind of lawful military conflict is jihad, and a jihad can only be used to fulfill at least one of two main objectives. The first is the effective spread of Muslim ideals and values into a region of society unmoved by the call to Islam. The second is defense of the Muslim community from external threats. In addition to discussing the conditions necessary to establish these objectives, Muslim teachings on jihad also deal with important related issues such as the immunity of noncombatants, ethical restrictions on the applications of destructive force, and the circumstances warranting armistice. In fact, the doctrine of jihad is probably best understood as being similar to the "just war" theory in Western Christian contexts. Over the course of the twentieth century, jihad discourse was polarized by modernists like Muhammad Shaltut (died 1963) who argue that, in the modern era, offensive jihad should only take the form of a peaceful propagation of Islam, and revolutionary Islamist groups such as Islamic Jihad, HAMAS, and Hizbullah, which maintain that Muslims around the world are obliged to use any available means to fight against the forces of Western imperialism.
Islamic Dictionary
jihad
The word jihad actually means "struggle, strive." The Arabic root of the word is jahada "to strive for." (The Arabic word for war is "harb.") Of the two types of jihad, the lesser type is the struggle against religious or political oppression, the second and greater is the soul's struggle with evil. Moderates think that while "jihad" might refer to an active war against an oppressive regime, such a war may be waged only against that regime, not innocent people. Radical Islamic fundamentalists assume that a jihad is a war without constraints.
ok...believe it or not. i have a life and i'm now just proscrastinating too many things that must get done!
Banned
cliff notes: Islam is a lying, war-like religion ....i need to go criticize Seaside now
please seek help. by all means.and please stop addressing me in this threatening and insulting manner. i'm sorry you hate islam, that is your problem. go deal with it.
SoWal Insider
if you have nothing to contribute to the conversation why do you bother?mf, I've often found the more verbose one is, the more they are trying to bolster a flawed argument. If insult is to be insinuated by exposure, then your reaction is truly juvenile.
you don't even know me and yet you've devoted your last 5 posts solely to insulting me. what do you hope to acheive?
Beach Fanatic
i mean it's not some random mosque in iran now that's calling for jihad and death to america. it's from mosques in every nice suberb of the uk, or the slums of france and the HUGE somali congregations in nashville, or neighborhood mosques in detroit.
In Islam, the central doctrine that calls on believers to combat the enemies of their religion. According to the Qur'an and the Hadith, jihad is a duty that may be fulfilled in four ways: by the heart, the tongue, the hand, or the sword.
Ok, so if there are widespread calls for jihad, (and we would still like some information on this) then it is possible that the mainstream is calling for jihad fulfilled by the heart, or tounge, and not necessarily the sword?
And isn't it easy to see how a call for a verbal or non violent jihad by a majority of muslims could become corrupted (in the minds of non-muslims) by the call from a few for violent jihad?
FunnChef - AlisonCooks.com
I do not claim to be an authority on any of these subjects, I simply meant that the hatered that shines through in these posts are rancid...not the subject within them. I do not believe in the way individuals are treated in MOST countries...ours included.
I also feel that if you are going to understand different cultural nations, you can not lump the entire population into generalizations. I know this is done...but it shows a real lack of humanity.
I also feel that if you are going to understand different cultural nations, you can not lump the entire population into generalizations. I know this is done...but it shows a real lack of humanity.
SoWal Insider
I do not claim to be an authority on any of these subjects, I simply meant that the hatered that shines through in these posts are rancid...not the subject within them. I do not believe in the way individuals are treated in MOST countries...ours included.you da girl Allifunn.....was that sexist?
I also feel that if you are going to understand different cultural nations, you can not lump the entire population into generalizations. I know this is done...but it shows a real lack of humanity.
FunnChef - AlisonCooks.com
you da girl Allifunn.....was that sexist?I do not consider it so.....but I tend to be gullible and naive :roll: therefore I can not discern if you are being serious or condescending....
Banned
Ok, so if there are widespread calls for jihad, (and we would still like some information on this) then it is possible that the mainstream is calling for jihad fulfilled by the heart, or tounge, and not necessarily the sword?
And isn't it easy to see how a call for a verbal or non violent jihad by a majority of muslims could become corrupted (in the minds of non-muslims) by the call from a few for violent jihad?
great question! ok..this is just my humble opinion, but if the jihad being called for now were meant to be fulfilled by faithful and peaceful commitment to service it would not be a complicated or difficult thing for moderate muslims to do. they would not be feeling so oppressed. they would not be called "bad muslims". add that issue to the numerous videotapes and letters to congregants asking for violent action and well.......
and, i agree, it is so very easy to see how a few people might engender the wrong opinion for an entire group! especially in a world where people judge that way. think about how you feel about christians? well, all christians aren't like that, but we're only human and sometimes we lump people in together. that kind of prejudice is worrisome.
which is why i think you're trying to be mindful of that. and i agree. it's important to be careful. i think i understand when people are too careful because they don't know enough and don't want to make the wrong assumptions.
unfortunately, that's not what's happening right now. you know, i don't worry about the phelps of the world, even though he's an abhorrent, evil, violent person, because he's in a minority and everyone knows he's a fruitcake!
but there's a tipping point, as there was in nazi germany, when everyday normal people start to buy into this ideology, and you know that many people aren't evil, it's just the cattle mentality. and you have to watch for the tipping point and according to many moderate muslims and watchdog groups we've passed it.
and then there's the issue of race in america. everything in america is attached to race and that's really a form of racism. for instance, i'm married to an immigrant and most of my friends and co-workers just happen to be LEGAL immigrants and political refugees. i myself have been an immigrant. and yet, most of my friends are VEHEMENTLY opposed to illegal immigration. but legal americans support it, because for them it's considered a race issue. they don't understand the negative implications it has for legal immigrants of ALL races. because they don't really know any immigrants, so they don't want to appear insensitive, but in the process..well, they kind of appear racist.
i think the same thing is true for muslims. because you're judging them by race instead of what they do and who they are, many of us are not getting the whole picture.
there's nothing wrong with identifying a problem. it's not an insult to muslims. it's a warning to the fervently fundamentalist would who threaten the rights of moderate muslims and those of us who are not muslim and do not wish to be converted or have people in our society judged under muslim law.
SoWal Insider
I do not consider it so.....but I tend to be gullible and naive :roll: therefore I can not discern if you are being serious or condescending....Easy now, I'm tired from chasing mf. I was trying to be nice, but obviuosly how can you tell from this afternoons' workout of bs....right, mf???
Beach Comber
I also feel that if you are going to understand different cultural nations, you can not lump the entire population into generalizations.i think sj and mf showed that in some prior posts about christianity, comparing southern baptists to episcapaleans - virtually night and day in many ways. christianity has so many different variations that to that christianity encourages this or that, is all relevant to which sect you are talking about. the same goes for islam.
Skunky
You all are freaking ridiculous.:roll:
Beach Comber
unfortunately, that's not what's happening right now. you know, i don't worry about the phelps of the world, even though he's an abhorrent, evil, violent person, because he's in a minority and everyone knows he's a fruitcake!
phelps, to non-christians, may represent all christians. a fruitcake to you and me, does not make a fruitcake to all. the non-violent muslims may look at a vocal leader in the u.s.a. and think that all americans are like him, especially if they elected him or her as their leader. after seeing much of this repeatedly, they may begin to think that they should be more extreme to fight the evilness. i think that many of the iraquis may be put in the situation of defending their own, just like the south did against the north in the america's "civil war." the south wasn't fighting so much for slavery as they were fighting to keep the north off of their property and out of their towns. if we don't kill them, they are coming to kill us. that sounds familiar.
SoWal Insider
You all are freaking ridiculous.:roll:I suspect you of something......you have it all figured out and must be nuetralized!!
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