Public vs Private Beach

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

why publish a map? Just put BIG BLUE BEACH ACCESS SIGNS UP.
I'm sure they can find room between the wayfinding signs and soon to come scenic corridior signs and lighted mile marker signs and golf cart lane only signs and the trolley stop signs.......

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

BMBV, I thought you have been saying that the Courts are the ones who will have to decide whether the public can use the privately deeded beach. Now you want the TDC to make that determination.

John R, you will note that those two sites mentioned are not current accesses, but ones in the works. The TDC wants to build those accesses. I understood that both would already be in the works if we didn't have any storms in 2006 which would wash away the beach walkovers. I guess they decided to spend the money on the big blue signs, instead.

By the way, the ramp at the end of Mitchell, which was east of Punzy's former place, is a private parcel, and now filled in with sand and a bulkhead. The actual deeded access is to the west of your former place, across the street from Pat.

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

BMBV, I thought you have been saying that the Courts are the ones who will have to decide whether the public can use the privately deeded beach. Now you want the TDC to make that determination.

Smiling Joe, in the meantime there are undeniably private beaches out there. There is no doubt; there are no shades of gray (as much as you try to portray as such). There are public accesses and private accesses as the TDC documents. Why stop there and not document the public and private beaches?

There is a court case out there that we all know about regarding beach nourishment.

Two things have to happen for the private beaches to become public:

1. The state supreme court has to rule in favor of Walton County.

AND

2. Nourishment must take place that extends the property beyond the established erosion control line.

Until BOTH items occur, innocent tourists will get arrested if people like you contnue to insist and encourage that the county stick their head in the sand and just "wish" the propblem will go away.

The law is clear and until any case is decided, the law will be enforced where needed.

You can can philosophically disagree with any of my positions. I fully expect that. However don't make the unknowing tourists pay for your ideology.

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

Smiling Joe, in the meantime there are undeniably private beaches out there. There is no doubt; there are no shades of gray (as much as you try to portray as such).

And let us not forget that a disturbing majority that post on this forum think it is okay for the government to come onto that private property and "take" things that they find objectionable.

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

...
You can can philosophically disagree with any of my positions. I fully expect that. However don't make the unknowing tourists pay for your ideology.

Please show me an example of my post where I have encouraged tourists to pay for my ideology. If anything, I have warned people of the possible arrests for sitting quietly on the beach.

You are right in that I do disagree with most of your statements. I do recognize that deeded property exists on the beach. What I have been telling you is that having a deed for property does not convey complete rights to the property.

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

Please show me an example of my post where I have encouraged tourists to pay for my ideology. If anything, I have warned people of the possible arrests for sitting quietly on the beach.

You are right in that I do disagree with most of your statements. I do recognize that deeded property exists on the beach. What I have been telling you is that having a deed for property does not convey complete rights to the property.

That may have been me he was thinking of. I have said it a million times.... Owning the beach is like trying to own the sky (Thanks Dave R). Florida's economy is based on tourism dollars and use of the beaches. I feel strongly that the "Supreme Court" will rule in favor of tourism dollars. It is really a "customary use" issue and many of us have been using the beaches of SoWal uninterrupted for years. The funny thing is, the areas that many are upset over are the areas we have been using the most. Especially Blue Mountain!
This is not a taking, this is a "customary use" issue. The law is not really clear BMBV. We have been and will continue to use the beaches as we always have. That is as clear as it gets.

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

Will the TDC ever publish a comprehensive map showing which beaches are public vs. private (in addition to the accesses)?

On their website they finally acknowledged that there are private beaches last year. Wouldn't it be responsible to our 2008 tourists by showing that some of the public accesses are completely surrounded by private beach?

Let's not repeat the summer of 2007.

Last year, Com. Meadows informed me that it was being worked on and would hopefully be ready by this tourist season. I'm wondering how it will be physically delineated on the beach. Landscape paint?

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

Last year, Com. Meadows informed me that it was being worked on and would hopefully be ready by this tourist season. I'm wondering how it will be physically delineated on the beach. Landscape paint?

Thanks for the update.

Regarding delineation, I believe people like Smiling Joe and Bobby J are going to unduly antagonize the situation furthering the polarization of an already touchy issue.

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

That may have been me he was thinking of. I have said it a million times.... Owning the beach is like trying to own the sky (Thanks Dave R). Florida's economy is based on tourism dollars and use of the beaches. I feel strongly that the "Supreme Court" will rule in favor of tourism dollars. It is really a "customary use" issue and many of us have been using the beaches of SoWal uninterrupted for years. The funny thing is, the areas that many are upset over are the areas we have been using the most. Especially Blue Mountain!
This is not a taking, this is a "customary use" issue. The law is not really clear BMBV. We have been and will continue to use the beaches as we always have. That is as clear as it gets.

Bobby J, why must we rehash the same ole crap? Didn't we more or less agree to let this concept play out in the court system?

Many beaches are private. If you disagree, then you and Smiling Joe can bring suit to a beach front owner, prove your case and move on with your life. Until then, there are private beaches, period.

I jumped into this thread stating that TDC needs to inform the "public" that not all the "Beaches of South Walton" are currently public. I've made this same comment before somewhere in another thread. Nothing more, nothing less. Are you going to be there when the next tourist gets arrested for not understanding this situation [edit: and becoming beligerent as a reult of] and then tell the sheriff to their face that the "law is not clear" so they must set the tourist (trespasser) free?

Now that's a banner line....
"FREE THE TOURISTAS!!!!!".

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

........ What I have been telling you is that having a deed for property does not convey complete rights to the property.

And you've also stated several times that you are not an attorney yet it certainly appears you have determined what does and does not get conveyed with beach property. If it were that simple, we would not be exchanging messages regarding this topic.

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

Thanks for the update.

Regarding delineation, I believe people like Smiling Joe, Bobby J, John R, and myself, are going to unduly antagonize the situation furthering the polarization of an already touchy issue.

Fixed that for you. Don't leave yourself out when you use the word antagonize. I even threw myself in there for you.

I've made this same comment before somewhere in another thread.

ad nauseam...

Now that's a banner line....
"FREE THE BEACH!!!!!".

;-)

I am not an attorney.

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

Are you going to be there when the next tourist gets arrested for not understanding this situation [edit: and becoming beligerent as a reult of] and then tell the sheriff to their face that the "law is not clear" so they must set the tourist (trespasser) free?

You bet. If I am aware that the arrest is taking place, I will gladly explain to the police officer that "we" have been using these beaches for years and that this is all just a giant misunderstanding.

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

And if you purchased your property after tona roma, you should have known that that strip of sand is a very special place for ALL of us!!!!!! So quit being a greedy pig!

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

to the police officer that "we" have been using these beaches for years and that this is all just a giant misunderstanding.

And you think that would cause a 'deputy sheriff' to unarrest someone?

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

And if you purchased your property after tona roma, you should have known that that strip of sand is a very special place for ALL of us!!!!!! So quit being a greedy pig!

I would imagine if the county were not such 'greedy pigs' when it came to collecting tax revenue from this property owners, they would be more conducive to allowing the use of the land. Maybe they could license it back to the county at the same terms that the county is using to license public lands to adjoining owners.

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

And you think that would cause a 'deputy sheriff' to unarrest someone?

I would imagine once the actual arrest was made it would be hard. If it was in the process... maybe....;-) If the officer was investigating the complaint...yep.

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

Bobby J, why must we rehash the same ole crap? Didn't we more or less agree to let this concept play out in the court system?

If you feel that way, why do you continue to bring up the issue? You were the first to post something about it on this thread.

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

You know what really puzzles me? Why would someone purchase a beach front home knowing good and well that people use this beach and then promptly begin to complain about these same people on the beach?

If I purchased my home and folks were playing out back, I think I would have made the connection that these folks always played there....

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

You know what really puzzles me? Why would someone purchase a beach front home knowing good and well that people use this beach and then promptly begin to complain about these same people on the beach?

If I purchased my home and folks were playing out back, I think I would have made the connection that these folks always played there....

exactly. people come to the emerald coast to, um, GO TO THE BEACH.

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

exactly. people come to the emerald coast to, um, GO TO THE BEACH.

Here, here.............what a concept!!!! We need a locals only beach...like 27 miles of it!!

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

And you think that would cause a 'deputy sheriff' to unarrest someone?

Be sure to include a after a your next post with Bobby J to counter his ....(SoWal etiquette, I believe ).

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

If you feel that way, why do you continue to bring up the issue? You were the first to post something about it on this thread.

You're doing the SJ shuffle again. Here's my first post:

Will the TDC ever publish a comprehensive map showing which beaches are public vs. private (in addition to the accesses)?

On their website they finally acknowledged that there are private beaches last year. Wouldn't it be responsible to our 2008 tourists by showing that some of the public accesses are completely surrounded by private beach?

Let's not repeat the summer of 2007.

I'm not debating the private / public beach thing here. I'm suggesting that TDC should ALSO provide maps of the public beaches as well as the accesses.

Oh....didn't JustaLocal just share with all of us that Meadows was looking into the TDC providing that very information?

SJ, in addition you also said:

BMBV, I thought you have been saying that the Courts are the ones who will have to decide whether the public can use the privately deeded beach. Now you want the TDC to make that determination.

You are wrongfully implying that a determination has to be made. It has already been made via legally recorded property deeds but of course you deny this in your rhetoric. Assuming Justalocal's post is correct, then the TDC has already acknowledged this (unlike you). At a minimum this (as you know) was on the TDC's website:


[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]The county maintains six regional beach accesses with parking and restrooms that are available to the public. Many of the county?s beaches are private due to the way some of the area?s properties were originally deeded and beachgoers who set up tents and chairs in these areas may be asked to move. [/FONT]


So you see, SJ, the TDC has already made a "determination" as you call it. They just need to inform the public as I've suggested.


Another comment you made:

Please show me an example of my post where I have encouraged tourists to pay for my ideology. If anything, I have warned people of the possible arrests for sitting quietly on the beach.

You are contradicting yourself. If you are warning people, then there must be a reason. If TDC acknowledges that there are private beaches, then there must be a reason. If you think TDC should not inform the public which beaches are private and which are public then you are in fact "encouraging tourists to pay for your ideology" by desiring that they stay uninformed. And I can see only one reason to want that.

And one more IMPORTANT thing.... Nobody has been arrested that was asked to leave a private beach and did so without argument or other resistance. Your imagery (sensationalism) of "possible arrests for sitting quietly on the beach" is total crap and you know it.

Why can't you simply acknowledge that it would be a good idea to also have a public beach map generated by TDC as well as the public access points?

In summary, I believe that was the essence of my first post as it followed with the title of this thread, "Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map", not that I wanted to re-debate the private vs. public beach issue.

The TDC hasn't made a determination as to whether the public may sit quietly on the beach. Doing so is not within their power. They are simply trying to avoid possible lawsuits. Even you have stated numerous times that the Court will have to decide each case on a case-by-case basis, so I'm not sure why you are now changing your mind.

I do acknowledge that deeds do exists for some of the sandy beach. I also note that full rights do not come with all property. Zoning, easements, customary use and prescriptive rights are some examples of a property owner not having full rights to their property. If you don't understand that simple and common part of real estate laws in Florida, I suggest you do some research. I am not an attorney, but I am familiar with the laws of the State of Florida. The public has been using the beaches in SoWal ever since their were people down here, which history shows that being some 4000-5000 years ago, long before Jesus roamed the Middle East. Only two years ago, has someone tried to defend the beaches as their property. That fits right into the Customary Use of the Florida Real Estate Law. Look it up.

BTW, no contradiction on my part. My warning is simply that people risk arrest or not having a convenient place to spend their time on the beach, and that has absolutely nothing to do with their rights to sit on the beach. Anyone can file a lawsuit or apparently have someone else arrested for criminal trespass, even without showing the Sheriff their boundary markers and current survey of the property, but that doesn't mean that they have full rights to their property, nor does it mean that the public doesn't have some rights to the property.

As for a map of private vs public beach, a map would only serve to show deeds for the beach, but that doesn't fully interpret rights of usage of that property. For example, my interior lot with a road being built across the depth of my property, without payment by the County, is one example of me not having full rights to my property. The deed shows that I own the property upon which the road and ROW sit, but that doesn't mean much about that portion of the road. In my particular case, Prescriptive Easement is the section of the law which is applicable. How you don't understand basic real estate law is beyond me. Have you actually looked up the laws and Court rulings and opinions, regarding Customary Use?

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

Oh....didn't JustaLocal just share with all of us that Meadows was looking into the TDC providing that very information?

So you see, SJ, the TDC has already made a "determination" as you call it. They just need to inform the public as I've suggested.

I disagree with the above. The TDC has not made a "determination."

I may have posted all this last Summer during the Public Beaches debate on SoWal, but I wanted to clear up my view.
I wrote the following to Com. Meadows last July after the TDC posted the FAQ on the County website:

"As a resident of South Walton I feel it very important to let you know my feelings on the County's new stand on "private beaches". I think it would have been prudent for the County to wait until the courts decide before taking a stand one way or the other. I feel confident that public access will extend at the very least to Mean High Water (MHW) and not only "wet sand" (which are very often not the same) . That aside, I am VERY disturbed about the following statement on County website under FAQ about private beaches.
"Most public beach accesses are nestled between private properties. Beachgoers should stay within the easement of the dune walkover to set up on the dry beach. Along Scenic 30A, beachgoers who wish have beach set ups outside of these areas must be on the wet sand." (bold mine)
The public beach access I use, Dune Allen, is not 'nestled between private properties'. The Gulf front properties East of the park do not extend seaward all the way to MHW. Since this is the access I use, it is the only one I've researched. But, I think the County would be wise not to err on the side of restricting public use of public beach by making the above generalization. It is misleading.
If Walton County is going to support the "private beach" idea, I think it has a duty to indicate on a map where the "private" portions actually are.
Thank you very much for allowing me to express my opinions on this matter.

She responded:
I will forward your comments to the TDC. We are working on a map showing public/private areas of the beach. we are working on the opinion but had to act in the meantime to an issue that is important to all of us.
Commissioner Cindy Meadows

Then on Aug. 1, I received this e-mail:
I received your e-mail from Commissioner Meadows. It is a tricky situation right now as there has not been a survey conducted to identify the mean high water line. The Walton County Sheriff's Department is enforcing the wet sand rule as it is their interpretation of the Florida Attorney General's opinion. As a TDC, we do not make or enforce the rules but simply serve as a communication vehicle. Our function is to market the destination, protect and maintain the area's beaches and provide leadership on tourism issues. Our FAQ sheet ensures visitors do not place themselves in a compromising situation. While we do make generalizations and err on the side of caution, it is because we'd rather have our visitors in an area that we know is public than have our visitors be harassed, asked to move or, worse, arrested. The feedback from our visitors has been very positive as they are most appreciative of us outlining the rules. They prefer to know where it is safe to set up instead of being asked to relocate later. The county is addressing this issue and we hope to have a clear understanding of where the public is allowed by the 2008 tourist season. In the meantime, we are directing visitors to our public beach accesses.
Tracy LouthainWalton County Tourist Development Council

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

You know what really puzzles me? Why would someone purchase a beach front home knowing good and well that people use this beach and then promptly begin to complain about these same people on the beach?

If I purchased my home and folks were playing out back, I think I would have made the connection that these folks always played there....

Who knows, but people constantly do this - they buy and then immediately want to change the status quo!