Public vs Private Beach

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

Who knows, but people constantly do this - they buy and then immediately want to change the status quo!

You are so right!

Re: Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map

Be sure to include a after a your next post with Bobby J to counter his ....(SoWal etiquette, I believe ).

Are you knocking the smiley's? If so I have a couple I can put after posts addressed to you but I would need special dispensation to not get banned. If not then .

They just feel good to me.

Went through some photos I had, found one of my late great aunt who is no longer living, taken in May of 1990 at Ed Walline Park. Interesting where the beach goers are.

JustaLocal, thanks for sharing your emails.

By "determination" I do understand that TDC has no authority in that arena. That is why I put the word in quotes and only in response to SJ's post. I was using the word in the context that TDC has the authority to inform the public when a beach is known to be private or public.

However as evidenced by their reply to you, it appears TDC will provide some sort of documentation where the beach is known to be public without controversy. That's really good news for everyone based on my observations.

Also I can fully appreciate your concern that people might be unnecessarily restricted from beaches that might be public.

Interesting note regarding one of TDC's comments, "While we do make generalizations and err on the side of caution, it is because we'd rather have our visitors in an area that we know is public than have our visitors be harassed, asked to move or, worse, arrested."

Until a few months ago, TDC was mistaken that Blue Mountain Beach to the east of 83 was public. So conversely I guess they could err the other way and so your concern is again a valid one.


"The county is addressing this issue and we hope to have a clear understanding of where the public is allowed by the 2008 tourist season."
We should follow up on this TDC statement to see if and when this information is put into a "tourist map".

It would appear that TDC agrees with my general premise.

Kurt, you started this thread with a post containing 2 links to the TDC's website regarding a map of public accesses. Just curious - how did it get deleted along with three other posts before me?

AND why did the title of thread change while at the same time showing me as the initiator?

I ask these questions because I only responded to your post about TDC about their beach access maps and that I feel TDC should document public beaches as well. I accused Bobby J of "rehashing the same ole crap" after he picks up on the age old private vs. public beach arguments. Yet by the above actions, it appears I'm somewhat "rehashing the same ole crap".

A side note - does TDC still have the infamous Frequently Asked Questions page on their website? I can't find it.

Kurt, you started this thread with a post containing 2 links to the TDC's website regarding a map of public accesses. Just curious - how did it get deleted along with three other posts before me?

The thread was split, your post happened to be the first one. The original thread is in the general forum.

floridagirl, I hear that there is a unofficial group of people who are collecting information, testimony, and photos of the historical use of all of the beach in Walton County. I'm sure your photo above, and other photos showing the general public sunning on the beaches, recently being claimed as private, will be much appreciated. You might ask around and see if you can find someone in the group to accept some photos as evidence. You might start with Commissioner Brannon's office, though I'm not in ANY way suggesting that he is personally involved in the group, but he, or his staffer, may know someone to contact.

The thread was split, your post happened to be the first one. The original thread is in the general forum.

I see. I believe you would agree that it changes the context of first my post somewhat by not having your original post. [Edit: also the title was changed from Public Beach & Bay Accesses - list and map to Public vs Private Beach by you.] Enough said. Thanks.

Sorry for the drive-by post (too busy to read them all). In a conversation yesterday, I was surprised that the public/private beach controversy in South Walton County is really affecting potential renters.

My doctor's fianc?e wants to get married at the beach. He planned to rent a beachfront home south of 30-A plus several homes adjacent to it for their guests. Our neighborhood is booked up. Someone told him about the public/private beach controversy, and it was suggested that they consider having the wedding at the beach at a state park. No way -- of course, they want the wedding to be in view of their accommodations. So he is going to fly everyone to the Caribbean.

The publicity about beach access is getting around. Not a good thing.

My doctor's fianc?e wants to get married at the beach. He planned to rent a beachfront home south of 30-A plus several homes adjacent to it for their guests. Our neighborhood is booked up. Someone told him about the public/private beach controversy, and it was suggested that they consider having the wedding at the beach at a state park. No way -- of cours

I think the bigger issue is that you have to have a permit to get married on the beach.

I think the bigger issue is that you have to have a permit to get married on the beach.

that would be a different permit than to get married somewhere else?

Yes, I think if you have a gathering of something like 50 or more people, you need a permit, but that is not difficult to obtain. Having a cop arrest the mother of the bride for trespassing at the wedding, is an entirely different mess, and isn't even in the same ocean with getting a beach permit for a large gathering, as WaltonGOP is trying to say.

I think the bigger issue is that you have to have a permit to get married on the beach.

You've got to be kidding! I remember the peanut boil parties we used to have down at Grayton, although that's probably why they created an ordinance!

Have we had permits for our SoWal beach soirées?

I doubt it. You could always say that you are two different gatherings, fighting for the same space on the beach.

Hopefully the Florida Supreme Court and/or the US Supreme Court will resolve the private/public beach issue in the near future. All the beaches in Florida should be public.
Also, there should be beach accesses every ? mile or so along all the beaches. Let the State of Florida use eminent domain to take the property up to the dune and also take selected strips of property for accesses. The property owners will be paid for their taken land. If the land owners don’t like that, then they can sell their property and buy
Beach front in the Caribbean, where they can stare at all the sand and water they want, and not have to deal with other people.

I am SO tired of all this private/public beach nonsense!

THE BEACH IS PUBLIC!

You can have a private access and restrict its use, you can restrict parking, you can provide no amenities, but once they manage to get to the sand it's public.

You can biatch and moan all you want about people's behavior, but we already have rules and regulations in place to deal with most of it and the rest is just how people behave.

If someone is parking where they shouldn't to use your private beach access you can have them towed.

If someone is leaving trash on the beach you can have them ticketed for littering.

If someone is being loud and obnoxious you can have them arrested for being drunk and disorderly.

If someone is leaving chairs and tents and coolers on the beach day to day, you can have it ticketed and removed.

But if there are too many people and the beach is crowded - that's the reality of life on the planet - you built it, so now they will come!

I grew up on a lake next to a public park. Same issues - cars parking in front of our house/driveway/mailbox, leaving trash in the water and our front yard, kids setting off fireworks, extra noise, dogs going to the bathroom when they weren't even allowed in the park etc.

Our pier was private property and the fenced portion of our yard was private property, all of the lake and both the wet and dry area of shoreline were public. As long as people didn't touch our pier and were following the law, they were doing nothing wrong.

A few obnoxious people is the price you pay for beachfront living and a front row seat to a natural resource. Get over it!

I am SO tired of all this private/public beach nonsense!

THE BEACH IS PUBLIC!

You can have a private access and restrict its use, you can restrict parking, you can provide no amenities, but once they manage to get to the sand it's public.

You can biatch and moan all you want about people's behavior, but we already have rules and regulations in place to deal with most of it and the rest is just how people behave.

If someone is parking where they shouldn't to use your private beach access you can have them towed.

If someone is leaving trash on the beach you can have them ticketed for littering.

If someone is being loud and obnoxious you can have them arrested for being drunk and disorderly.

If someone is leaving chairs and tents and coolers on the beach day to day, you can have it ticketed and removed.

But if there are too many people and the beach is crowded - that's the reality of life on the planet - you built it, so now they will come!

I grew up on a lake next to a public park. Same issues - cars parking in front of our house/driveway/mailbox, leaving trash in the water and our front yard, kids setting off fireworks, extra noise, dogs going to the bathroom when they weren't even allowed in the park etc.

Our pier was private property and the fenced portion of our yard was private property, all of the lake and both the wet and dry area of shoreline were public. As long as people didn't touch our pier and were following the law, they were doing nothing wrong.

A few obnoxious people is the price you pay for beachfront living and a front row seat to a natural resource. Get over it!

The State of FLorida does not currently recognize that all the beachs in Florida are Public. Until the State recognizes this, likely by a court ruling,
then all the beach is not public.

If you doubt this, find one of those obnoxious people and put your beach chair on the beach in front of their house. But, be perpared for a ride to Defuniak Springs as a guest of a Walton County Deputy Sheriff.

Hopefully the Florida Supreme Court and/or the US Supreme Court will resolve the private/public beach issue in the near future...

Right now, only the issue of beach nourishment and the resulting conversion of newly added sand to public use is what will be determined soon; nothing more as far as I am aware.

Also, there should be beach accesses every ? mile or so along all the beaches. Let the State of Florida use eminent domain to take the property up to the dune and also take selected strips of property for accesses. The property owners will be paid for their taken land....

I would certainly entertain that.



It should be via negotiation, and can not be done via eminent domain (not one of the valid reasons for eminent domain). Again, the same end result could occur through negotiation. But I'm very afraid the county (and my socialist buddies) would rather try to TAKE it by other means in the name of tourism and other "opinions".

I think we're having a major breakthrough here.... Finally someone who thinks the beaches should be public AND acknowledges that there are private beaches AND that a private beach has value to its owner.

If the Supreme Court rules against Walton County on the existing case, then I believe negotiation will be the only "real" possiblity of converting private beaches to public beaches in Walton County. Everything else is just noise.

Good posts IMO (and no, I don't know PeterFrohwein from Adam).

The State of FLorida does not currently recognize that all the beachs in Florida are Public. Until the State recognizes this, likely by a court ruling,
then all the beach is not public.

If you doubt this, find one of those obnoxious people and put your beach chair on the beach in front of their house. But, be perpared for a ride to Defuniak Springs as a guest of a Walton County Deputy Sheriff.

This part of the story is particularly troubling. If the obnoxious dune holder wants to press a trespassing complaint, The Deputy should only fill out the citation and have the complainant sign it. Then they go to court and the officer is uninvolved further. Arrest of a beach goer at 1030 am AND holding him until 830 pm sounds to me like an abuse of power, and a waste of tax payer funded resources.

Also, there should be beach accesses every ? mile or so along all the beaches. Let the State of Florida use eminent domain to take the property up to the dune and also take selected strips of property for accesses. The property owners will be paid for their taken land....

If I correctly recall the law of eminent domain, gov't cannot use eminent domain to take property for recreational purposes, and I think sunbathing would fall into the definition of recreation.

If I correctly recall the law of eminent domain, gov't cannot use eminent domain to take property for recreational purposes, and I think sunbathing would fall into the definition of recreation.

I think that the key to eminent domain is that the land be devoted to
"public use" . I believe that good government lawyers could make
a sucessful argumant(s) and win a case or cases that could expand the
current defination of eminent domain to also include beaches.

It could be argued that the beach could be loosely defined as a public park.

"Traditionally, eminent domain has been utilized to facilitate transportation, the supplying of water, and the like, 184 but the use of the power to establish public parks, to preserve places of historic interest, and to promote beautification has substantial precedent.
Quote weblink: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment05/14.html
President Case below:
Shoemaker v. United States, 147 U.S. 282 (1893) (establishment of public park in District of Columbia)
Case weblink: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment05/14.html#f184

I think that the key to eminent domain is that the land be devoted to
"public use" . I believe that good government lawyers could make
a sucessful argumant(s) and win a case or cases that could expand the
current defination of eminent domain to also include beaches.

It could be argued that the beach could be loosely defined as a public park.

"Traditionally, eminent domain has been utilized to facilitate transportation, the supplying of water, and the like, 184 but the use of the power to establish public parks, to preserve places of historic interest, and to promote beautification has substantial precedent.....

I don't think that will fly. From what I understand, each state can have varying laws involving eminent domain. Example: Florida, I believe, changed eminent domain regarding seizing private property for the purpose of increasing the tax base....i.e. allowing developers to redevelop valuable coastal porperty when maybe only mobile homes are currently sitting on the land and are perhaps homesteaded. This form of eminent domain is now a no-no (as it should be).

BUT.....

Let's assume it could happen. You sound like a fair minded individual. Let's say the state and/or county can seize private beaches via eminent domain.

The BIG question is how does one establish the value of the beach seized (basically dune line to water line)?

As you state, the property owner must be compensated for the value of the land "taken".

In the case of private beaches, is it generally the current difference in value of beach front vs. first tier? vs. 2nd tier? vs. 1/2 mile off the beach?

How does one truly value a piece property in which so many can financially benefit from?

These are questions looking for answers not confrontation.

I don't think that will fly. From what I understand, each state can have varying laws involving eminent domain. Example: Florida, I believe, changed eminent domain regarding seizing private property for the purpose of increasing the tax base....i.e. allowing developers to redevelop valuable coastal porperty when maybe only mobile homes are currently sitting on the land and are perhaps homesteaded. This form of eminent domain is now a no-no (as it should be).

BUT.....

Let's assume it could happen. You sound like a fair minded individual. Let's say the state and/or county can seize private beaches via eminent domain.

The BIG question is how does one establish the value of the beach seized (basically dune line to water line)?

As you state, the property owner must be compensated for the value of the land "taken".

In the case of private beaches, is it generally the current difference in value of beach front vs. first tier? vs. 2nd tier? vs. 1/2 mile off the beach?

How does one truly value a piece property in which so many can financially benefit from?

These are questions looking for answers not confrontation.

The type of eminent domain you describe is I believe very dangerous.
If the public alone where to benefit by the taking of land that is one thing.
To get private individuals involved (developers/investors) benefiting
is a whole different situation which I do not agree with.

You are missing a legal point here. The State of Florida might have laws on the books concerning eminent domain but as I understand it if a case where to go to higher federal courts or as high as the Supreme Court, that any ruling by them could/would over rule Florida state law.

In essence the beach is a park which needs to be made public and protected for all. (Any lawyers in the house? Is what I am saying correct?) By-the-way there are 1000 different reasons people go to the beach, of which sunbathing is only one.

As to valuing the land? I would think that would be pretty strait forward. Say a land owner has a ? acre lot appraised at a fair market value of 1M. And say that 25% of the property is what the state wants to take. So 25% of 1M is $250K.