Seawalls

Is this the seawall to which you were referring, BMBV?

Yep!

Here today...gone today. ;-)
Didn't even need a hurricane. Looks like they're starting over.

Much of the time when I make a statement, I am looking in the mirror and sharing what I am learning. Very few people can say they are not a part of the problem. I certainly am not one of those few.

Great preamble!!

I guess my post of the photos and copy was to show that the beach recovered, even though it took twenty years after Eloise, then, it was washed away again. The beach and dune system are an ever changing thing. The beaches did not recover from importing much sand and building seawalls. The beaches recovered by letting nature take more of the dunes, building replacement beaches from the dunes. If Man were not involved, the dune system would continue to build, but farther back geographically.

IMPORTANT POINT to be made here:
SJ, I'm not coming down on you as at least we're exchanging ideas on a civil level because I see you as level headed, verbose sometimes, but level headed . I just heard someone say what about "you"???? My blood pressure actually drops when I respond back to your posts!

With that said.. I don't believe I ever implied that seawalls assist in the recovery ("The beaches did not recover from importing much sand and building seawalls.")

A retaining wall is pretty much a last ditch effort to protect one's property from imminent collapse. I acknowledge that. I also acknowledge that retaining walls will not assist in the recovery of a beach system.

If you want to keep something forever, let it go. If you want to lose it quickly, squeeze it tightly until it can no longer breathe (read "seawall").

Tried that with my wife. She's still around.

1) sj, love the avatar but the eye is really creeping me out

2) bmbv, are you saying you tried to suffocate your wife?

3) the 'take' processing is sooooo slow, it will probably be next year before they are approved (or dis-approved), and turtle season approaches quickly (with no digging allowed), so the seawalls will probably be allowed to stay in the ground, even if they are at first glance dis-allowed - those that just went ahead and did it without regard to the rules will, more than likely, get away with it

have fun, be careful, eat fish

AB....:funn: thanks for #2 above! I wondered the same thing. Is it just me, or does it seem BMBV protests too much?

SJ -- is that the house of the famous Texan whose house is now too close to the edge of the bluffs, or is that someone else's house? Curious.

I have a few questions. Mainly just for my own education/curiosity's sake.

1. Has anyone heard of instances where a beach was able to either recover, or at least sustain itself (on average) after seawalls/retaining walls were installed? In other words, have there been any success stories that can be cited along an ocean or gulf coast?

2. A complex near us is installing what appears to be about a 50'x15' foot wall made only of granite cinderblocks and mortar. Nothing behind or in front of it. They are covering it with sand today. It seems from reading this thread that without support, a wall is as strong as its weakest link, which in this case would be the mortar? Seems like even a (cheaper) wooden wall with supports would provide better protection that that. I have no idea, I'm just curious from a structural standpoint, that's all. Not making any aspersions here.

AB....:funn: thanks for #2 above! I wondered the same thing. Is it just me, or does it seem BMBV protests too much?

i shall assume he did it with furs and diamonds, today is too beautiful to think anything else

2. A complex near us is installing what appears to be about a 50'x15' foot wall made only of granite cinderblocks and mortar. Nothing behind or in front of it. They are covering it with sand today. It seems from reading this thread that without support, a wall is as strong as its weakest link, which in this case would be the mortar? Seems like even a (cheaper) wooden wall with supports would provide better protection that that. I have no idea, I'm just curious from a structural standpoint, that's all. Not making any aspersions here.

If you mean 50 feet long by 15 feet high by one block thick, that is the most ridiculous wall I have heard of yet, and will not survive the smallest amount of direct wave action.

i've seen it. it's at sand cliffs condo. someone needs to find out if the county issued an armoring permit for this. it is literally a concrete block wall with sand behind it and some type of gravel or drainage rock on top of the sand. absolutely brutal..!!!!

This was taken yesterday. No, it didn't strike me as very secure as far as walls go, but then I'm no engineer.

To make it easier for those to follow....

SJ said, "If you want to keep something forever, let it go. If you want to lose it quickly, squeeze it tightly until it can no longer breathe (read "seawall")."

I jokingly said, "Tried that with my wife. She's still around."

You then said, "....2) bmbv, are you saying you tried to suffocate your wife?"


Don't you just love twisted humor? Glad to see you got both inferences, not just the obvious one. Just a "test" to gauge the reasoning ability of my ...... naw..... forget it.....

It was just a joke, that's all. Thanks SJ for putting that one in my lap!!

BTW if I could catch 'em, I'd eat more of them!

(fingers go tap tap tap tap tap)

If you mean 50 feet long by 15 feet high by one block thick, that is the most ridiculous wall I have heard of yet, and will not survive the smallest amount of direct wave action.

On the surface you're probably right.

However, wave action probably won't be the culprit (if there is one). It's going to be hydrostatic pressure from behind.

Question to those that saw this wall first hand.... Did you see what type (if any) anchors were used behind the wall? If so what type and approximate spacing. Also, does anyone have any idea HOW DEEP the wall goes below grade?

I'm sincerely curious as everyone knows that I'm a retaining wall connoisseur.

Honestly, I would very much appreciate if you guys are there again, if you could take a picture behind the wall. Also, if you can, nose around and ask the depth below sea-level (that's also important).

My first instinct is that I can't imagine why anyone would put a wall like that when sheet pile (composite, vinyl, even steel) is probably stronger that a block wall and definitely more main stream. If some how they did run lots of rebar inside the block and filled with concrete AND used proper anchors, then it might stand a chance.

TIA very much !!!!!

i shall assume he did it with furs and diamonds, today is too beautiful to think anything else

I was going to. But I spent all my money on sand and retaining walls!!!

Here's a couple more photos that detail it a little more. From what we saw, there was just sand being pushed behind it. They were putting the blocks up in a row, then placing a (steel?) bar in an existing groove in the blocks, then adding a new row of blocks on top.

FYI - those are not regular concrete blocks. Those are specifically designed for retention walls. I have seen them stacked very high and hold well, but the walls were not getting whammed by a raging sea.

back? did you go somewhere? i think not, since you were lurking and almost ready to post, something scathing, i'm sure. but, since we're jumping forward, forgetting old posts...

i will submit: you had no choice, your back was against the wall, and you had a duty to protect your property.

you did quite a bit of research, and chose the route which you thought best to protect said property.

based on historical evidence provided by other posters, retaining walls will probably survive, dunes will not, and the sight of the walls will be left in the wake for all to observe and deal with in the foreseeable(sp?) future.

i'm believing that, many current GF owners will tire of spending money every season and sell(probably not making back the real dollars spent).

i am a pacifist. fear not for you life or ultra-secret identity. we all eventually meet the others on this board, and hopefully someday we will meet. everyone here shares a love for this region, so we'll at least have one thing to talk about. i will ask you to post a photo of your finished product so we'll have a 'before' reference point. it would be awesome if the 'after' looks the same.

regarding:

Regarding item #2 and the main reason I started posting so much on this thread is that I will not tolerate any verbage attacking and inferring that it is the fault of GF owners' for the situation we're in today regarding erosion and retaining walls.

tolerance is such a great virtue. i cannot go back and read the entire thread again, it's too draining. but i'm not sure i ever attacked you or your fellow GF owners directly. my questions were more directed towards licensing and enforcement, which you pointed out i clearly did not understand. if i did, i apologize. my tolerance did wear thin with the personal attacks toward anyone who had an opinion that differed from yours. while i agree that it's not your fault, it was your choice that put you/us in the position you're/we're in today. GF owners had a choice to buy and build on a moving medium. the county (maybe) had the choice to allow it. like or not, we're all impacted by the choices of others.

my emotional questions, concerns, and statements have all been made with regards to the environment. we're, yes i'm including you, in deep trouble, big picture wise. the walls are a piece of the whole. the 'take' is real, etc, etc
my concience is clear with regards to personal environmental impact. know that i will continue to post when and where i see fit.

peace

Here's a couple more photos that detail it a little more. From what we saw, there was just sand being pushed behind it. They were putting the blocks up in a row, then placing a (steel?) bar in an existing groove in the blocks, then adding a new row of blocks on top.

This is all starting to look like the SoWal version of "The Three Little Pigs".

Update on concrete wall, if anyone's interested:

Aaparently the county was already on top of it, as there was already an investigation underway. This was forwarded me minutes ago from a neighbor who received this email from Walton County today:

"This is a follow-up e-mail concerning the concrete wall that is being placed at Sand Cliff Condos. Officer Mark Kelley has been assigned to this case. After the initial site investigation and additional photos taken, a Stop Work Order has been placed on site. The cliff was destroyed by the digging and no further work is to be done until the Department of Environmental Protection has evaluated the cliff destruction and the concrete wall. Also advised them to contact Gerry Demers, Walton County Deputy Building Official concerning certain issues he has with this concrete wall. If our office can be of further assistance or provide additional information please do not hesitate to contact us. We will keep this case open and re-inspect accordinglyuntil the necessary steps have been taken."

back? did you go somewhere? i think not, since you were lurking and almost ready to post, something scathing, i'm sure. but, since we're jumping forward, forgetting old posts...

i will submit: you had no choice, your back was against the wall, and you had a duty to protect your property.

you did quite a bit of research, and chose the route which you thought best to protect said property.

based on historical evidence provided by other posters, retaining walls will probably survive, dunes will not, and the sight of the walls will be left in the wake for all to observe and deal with in the foreseeable(sp?) future.

i'm believing that, many current GF owners will tire of spending money every season and sell(probably not making back the real dollars spent).

i am a pacifist. fear not for you life or ultra-secret identity. we all eventually meet the others on this board, and hopefully someday we will meet. everyone here shares a love for this region, so we'll at least have one thing to talk about. i will ask you to post a photo of your finished product so we'll have a 'before' reference point. it would be awesome if the 'after' looks the same.

regarding:


tolerance is such a great virtue. i cannot go back and read the entire thread again, it's too draining. but i'm not sure i ever attacked you or your fellow GF owners directly. my questions were more directed towards licensing and enforcement, which you pointed out i clearly did not understand. if i did, i apologize. my tolerance did wear thin with the personal attacks toward anyone who had an opinion that differed from yours. while i agree that it's not your fault, it was your choice that put you/us in the position you're/we're in today. GF owners had a choice to buy and build on a moving medium. the county (maybe) had the choice to allow it. like or not, we're all impacted by the choices of others.

my emotional questions, concerns, and statements have all been made with regards to the environment. we're, yes i'm including you, in deep trouble, big picture wise. the walls are a piece of the whole. the 'take' is real, etc, etc
my concience is clear with regards to personal environmental impact. know that i will continue to post when and where i see fit.

peace

Dear John R,

I suspect you're really a nice guy. I think you're starting to see the predicament that me and some of my immediate neighbors are in.

I'm NOT defending everyone up and down the beach in regards to retaining walls. Never have, never will. I do believe there's going to be some serious fallout (with non qualified walls) in the end because so many eyes are watching the situation and its outcome.

I have been trying very very hard to not personally attack as of lately. I'm trying to grow up. But I will try very very hard to rip apart posts that I believe continuously "paint (all of) us (GF owners) in a negative light". I have some very nice, thoughtful and caring neighbors. And apparently there are others.

The situation, I believe is not as dire as some would have everyone to believe. Heck, I'm considering buying another gulf front unit because I sense a big pull-back of sorts. It would be like timing the stock market. If another hurricane hits values may go down further (the it's definitely time to buy) OR if there's NOT another hurricane, values will start rising. Oh well. I guess that would make me a "money grabbing" gulf front investor. Someone has to own the property in order for the county to continue collecting taxes on it... might as well be me.

BTW, regarding tolerance, it must be a 2-way street for everyone to truly be happy.

Change of subject...

Just an innocent question: Do you believe beach nourishment will get us back to where we were prior to Opal? I've heard nothing but good feedback regarding the ongoing project in western Walton County.

Thanks and let's try to discover some common ground such as our love for the beach that brought us all here to begin with.

Peace (back at ya),

BMBV

Update on concrete wall, if anyone's interested:

Aaparently the county was already on top of it, as there was already an investigation underway. This was forwarded me minutes ago from a neighbor who received this email from Walton County today:

"This is a follow-up e-mail concerning the concrete wall that is being placed at Sand Cliff Condos. Officer Mark Kelley has been assigned to this case. After the initial site investigation and additional photos taken, a Stop Work Order has been placed on site. The cliff was destroyed by the digging and no further work is to be done until the Department of Environmental Protection has evaluated the cliff destruction and the concrete wall. Also advised them to contact Gerry Demers, Walton County Deputy Building Official concerning certain issues he has with this concrete wall. If our office can be of further assistance or provide additional information please do not hesitate to contact us. We will keep this case open and re-inspect accordinglyuntil the necessary steps have been taken."

That's one of the things about those type of retaining walls. When they're more than 10 feet or so high, you have to excavate back a ways to put in the geogrid tie-back system (the black plastic mesh in the pictures). When I saw the pictures, I noted that they were building it a good distance from the bluff and I was thinking they must be recovering some of their yard. But it sounds like they might have dug it out themselves. I'm surprised someone would select that type of wall given they would have to further damage the dune system.

Heck, I'm considering buying another gulf front unit because I sense a big pull-back of sorts. It would be like timing the stock market. If another hurricane hits values may go down further (the it's definitely time to buy) OR if there's NOT another hurricane, values will start rising. Oh well. I guess that would make me a "money grabbing" gulf front investor. Someone has to own the property in order for the county to continue collecting taxes on it... might as well be me.

i too am waiting for the market to yield more play for buyers(and waiting for my telluride house to sell), but i won't be buying on the beach. :roll: with the potential for disaster, i'd think you'd put your money somewhere a little safer, even just north of 30a. caveat emptor...

Change of subject...

Just an innocent question: Do you believe beach nourishment will get us back to where we were prior to Opal? I've heard nothing but good feedback regarding the ongoing project in western Walton County.

see:SoWal Beaches Forum - View Single Post - Study on Geotubes in Texas

Thanks and let's try to discover some common ground such as our love for the beach that brought us all here to begin with.

Peace (back at ya),

BMBV

been to mountainfilm?

i will submit: you had no choice, your back was against the wall, and you had a duty to protect your property.

you did quite a bit of research, and chose the route which you thought best to protect said property.

I am not sure the above will appear in quote formation...but you get the idea....
It seems to me that bmbv has indeed done quite a bit of research and he should be commended on this..I dare to say that few GF owners are as resonsibe or as well informed! If more owners would become active as this, I am sure the beach would not be in such a precarious situation now. Most of the people on this board are owners in one way or another...and they are all very active in trying to procure a solution to the many problems facing said ownership. It is the thousands of other owners that worry me...the ones that really have no clue, I wish they could all read these posts. Ignorance only leads to downfall! While this thread tended to whirl out of control at times, it has been an extremely informative thread.

Doing extensive research on what kind, size, and material to make a hard seawall is like researching the best way to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.

The basic premise is absurd. The ultimate out come is certain to all those who are not in complete denial.

I have read this thread for a while. While I do not own property( would love to, but kids in college suck the funds away), I do care about the area. Anything man made that would prevent a beach shoreline being destroyed should be skipped.

Having been to St Simmons Island, one of the major drawbacks was the horrible retaining walls. No beach at all when tides come in. I cannot fathom SoWal looking like this area.

I also cannot imagine the grief of owning ocean front property that would be destroyed with more wave action. However, it is a beach, and man cannot prevent nature. No matter how hard he tries. Just my 2 cents.

Doing extensive research on what kind, size, and material to make a hard seawall is like researching the best way to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.

The basic premise is absurd. The ultimate out come is certain to all those who are not in complete denial.

Another WELL THOUGHT OUT post by our pal and your pal, echopal !!! Gee thanks.

Hey ecopal,

You said, "Doing extensive research on what kind, size, and material to make a hard seawall is like researching the best way to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic. "

What would you have us do if you were God? Don't take the idea too seriously.... the position is still not vacant from what most everyone has told me. Again please try to answer this question, what would you have us do?

Again remember I'm a GF property owner whose property is considered non-conforming and was in danger of collapse from the next storm. Some people may not understand the implications but YOU CERTAINLY SHOULD.

Here's your chance to shine !!!!!!!



BTW, why in the hell don't you have the guts to respond to my response to your (basically thoughtless, slanted, propagandized, alarmist, run for your life if you can fit between our retaining wall and the water's edge type of hysteria, with "MUCH"? loss of sand, etc., etc.).

You know what I'm talking about.

Do you have to get Kurt to defend your incoherent position in regards to your ABSOLUTELY MISLEADING "PICTURE" at Blue Mountain Beach?

You, my friend, have some serious issues (only hurts yourself)... even worse, as a result, you're TRYING to take down lots of others with you. You have some agenda to truly try to hurt all beach front property owners regardless of legalities, situations, etc. You insist, over and over, to lump all GF owners as one. I don't think I've missed anything here.

You are continuously painting a BLACK and WHITE picture when there are some "emerald" colors involved.

You, my friend, do not have one single beach front friend at the moment (that I can find). This will haunt you one day, one way or another. I think it has already started.

"Rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic." That is soooooo thought provoking. Smoke is bellowing out my ears as I digest all the significance of that eye opening statement. WOW !!! What other "words of wisdom" can you share??? Can't wait to hear!!

You also stated "The basic premise is absurd. The ultimate out come is certain to all those who are not in complete denial."

Did you mean to leave the word "not" out above? Seems so.

Do you own a home on the beach (or near it)?

Assuming you do own a beach home.... doesn't the above statement also apply to you when a cat 4 or 5 comes barreling down on our area?

"Absurd"? Hmmm... absurd.... ABSURD!! The only thing ABSURD is that YOU think you're completely immune from mother nature being near the coast, again assuming you live near the coast.

I used the word "light weight" a few times in previous posts. I promised I wouldn't call people names (a promise made to Kurt and others). I will stand by that promise and refrain from calling you a #$@$#@ #@$#@ #@$#@$.

Try, really try, REALLY REALLY TRY to present something of substance regarding MY situation and what suggestions you may make regarding how I can minimized my impact to the beach BESIDES JUST LEAVING TOWN (which so far seems to be your only solution and also your twisted desire).

You're a smart person, right? (I didn't do any name calling here, did I?). PLEASE HELP ME!!!! Yes, I'm asking for help. Did everyone hear me? I'm ASKING FOR SOME FREAKING HELP from ecopal. I don't want to be persecuted any longer.

Thank you,
BMBV