Seawalls

Excuse me while I

That is just sad.

I watched the construction of the Seagrove Village wall. They built their seawall about 30 feet out in front of the bluff line after the county had encouraged all seawall builders to construct their walls as close to the dwellings as possible. A contractor friend of mine said they built it twice as far out onto the beach than they needed to.

From my observation, most people erecting the seawalls, erected the walls at or near the location which their yard once extended. However, it is my understanding that the only reason the 60 day temporary permits for the seawalls were issued was to save the improvements from further damage, which does not include rebuilding the yard. One homeowner in Blue Mtn Bch has recently been issued a Stop Work Order for removing vegetation without a permit. I don't know what good it did because it was after the fact and now that back yard is all sand, at least 40 ft of it, with no plants in sight.

Below is a picture Seagrove Beach Villa's neighbor installing their geotubes-this is currently going on.(quote)

Below is a picture take with telephoto from the Greenwood Ave beach access to the west-the same vantage point as previous picture.

It shows workers in the foreground jumping on the tubes to squeeze out the excess muddy water from the mud/sand slurry being pumped into the tubes.

This muddy water is then pumped into the Gulf.

In the background is the Seagrove Villa's beach and walkway.

Note the nice white sand at Seagrove Villas in comparison to the darker sand the Montgomery Street owners are using.

(please click on picture to make larger)

There is nothing more rewarding than listening to, adding to, and reading (in the case of this board) a lively, interesting and worthwhile discussion. Feeling passtionate about a subject is a quality that I find attractive in a person. Much of the dialogue contained in this thread has passion, but it lacks the tolerance, compassion and understanding that substantiates true conviction. Intensity without justification is simply meaningless rhetoric. Just my opinion.

I'm baaaaaaacccckkk



I admit, Allifunn, that you're absolutely right regarding your post above.
Yep, I said it. I apologize for some of the posts (maybe not all - read on). You've brought out the "softie" in me.

I will cease with the pepper spray, if others can do the same, especially for the sake of the "bystanders".

Truce.


I have been only trying to get two main points across within this thread titled "Seawalls":

1. Not all retaining walls will fail after a category 3 hurricane as so many posters have predicted.

2. Many GF owners have no choice but to install a retaining wall in the immediate term to protect their property from imminent collapse (if allowed by the county and Florida DEP). Financial obligation to one's self and family dictates this. Period.

Some tolerant posters actually exchanged good ideas and observations about item #1. Perhaps it got too detailed and technical for this thread. But that was somewhat intentional...to show that there was thought put in to the selection, design and installation of our retaining wall (probably not all) as opposed to some structures thrown up that even I, yes me, agree will be destroyed with the next hurricane. Heck, it might not even take a hurricane for some.

Regarding item #2 and the main reason I started posting so much on this thread is that I will not tolerate any verbage attacking and inferring that it is the fault of GF owners' for the situation we're in today regarding erosion and retaining walls.

The situation is FAR too complex for this SIMPLE assumption. There is one fact that I think we can agree on... there was erosion before man, and there's erosion during man and there will be erosion after man. (I mean man and woman!!)

Let's extrapolate a little....let's say I agree to demolish my building and hand over my land because I'm a real nice guy and the pressure from some of you has convinced me that it is the right thing to do.

Now without any armoring or renourishment, what stops the erosion process? Dennis eroded about 15 to 20 feet of land (beyond Ivan and Opal). Dennis's brother could do the same thing in a year. Their sister could repeat that the following year.

Now the erosion line is approaching first tier property owners and all these same problems simply resurface.

How far back from the shoreline is practical? In the spirit of this post, please understand that this is rhetorical question.

With that said, there is only one real solution economically and I believe most of you know what it is. Hint...they're doing it as we speak. Many of you have actually mentioned and supported it.

That said, I also highly support beach (re)nourishment as it's being executed now.

But do I NOT put up a retaining wall anyway since it looks like we'll eventually get beach nourshiment ourselves? The only problem with that idea is time. As Kurt pointed out in one of his posts, it took the renourishment "project" about about 3 years to occur (from inception to legal, financial, finding source of sand, and finally implementation). I and many others personally can't wait another 3 years as the odds are stacked against me (my property would most likely be destroyed by then based on what happened in the last couple of years and what is predicted in the future).

Some people wanted to put up a new permanent retaining wall in the Mirimar Beach area, but were told they couldn't because beach renourishment was going to occur within a few months in their area (DEP's logic is that beach nourishment would alleviate the need for armoring - and that's understood).


Regards to all.

NOTE to all as an FYI - John R knows how to quote and respond properly.

Kurt, I sure hope like hell you mean from a technical standpoint.

But I think I do know what you mean.

Kurt and SJ....I'm still trying to figure an easy way to snip part of a post and make it a quote without going through some of the manual keystroking... is there an easier way? The "long" way is apparent by typing the "QUOTE.." header and trailer.

If I figure out an easier way, John R, you better look out! Kurt will also say my responses are proper.

No attacks here, just a little levity. Really.

Thanks

But do I NOT put up a retaining wall anyway since it looks like we'll eventually get beach nourshiment ourselves? The only problem with that idea is time. As Kurt pointed out in one of his posts, it took the renourishment "project" about about 3 years to occur (from inception to legal, financial, finding source of sand, and finally implementation). I and many others personally can't wait another 3 years as the odds are stacked against me (my property would most likely be destroyed by then based on what happened in the last couple of years and what is predicted in the future).

During a recent conversation with Brad Pickle, I discovered that it actually took seven years from inception to current date. :shock: --not that it matters, either way, it is a long @ss time.

During a recent conversation with Brad Pickle, I discovered that it actually took seven years from inception to current date. :shock: --not that it matters, either way, it is a long @ss time.

Which takes longer, sand fencing or renourishment?

This is a clear case of the "Have's" and the "Have Not's"

I "have" a home that is safe from collaspe
BMBV "has not"!

yuppie,

Cute.

Thanks for the post.

Kurt and SJ....I'm still trying to figure an easy way to snip part of a post and make it a quote without going through some of the manual keystroking... is there an easier way? The "long" way is apparent by typing the "QUOTE.." header and trailer.

Thanks

I use the old manual way and know of no shortcut other than copy and paste. For multiple quotes, type the intro and trailer, copy and paste, then fill in between.

Which takes longer, sand fencing or renourishment?

That is a darn good question. I have a good guess.

I don't think this seawall will work without the neighbors continuing it down the beach.

SJ, SJ, SJ... I thought you were a voice of reason. Are you going to make me defend my other neighbor down the beach for trying to protect their property?

What makes you think this won't work???

This is exactly what I'm talking about !!!!!

What happened to you???

You change from a smiling frog to a dog and now something else and all your sense of reasoning flies out the window.

I GIVE UP !!!!!


:funn:


P.s. Thanks SJ for the gift of laughter! I (we) needed it.

By the way, the debris in your picture is from a house that use to have a wood retaining wall. That wall completely disappeared after Dennis (had survived Ivan though as did a few others that failed after Dennis - go figure). Ivan was stronger in terms of wind velocity than Dennis, but Dennis caused more erosion and resulting stress on inferior walls.

Thanks again for the !!!

BMBV, No I'm not from GaTech...some other school.

I'll give you a pass on this one.

Regarding my not being a fan of seawalls: I work in the environmental sector and I'm not a fan of a lot of the things we humans do to the earth.

Completely understood and undeniable.

Regarding your offer of the video during Dennis: Thanks, I'd like to see it out of general interest, but those were the conditions during Dennis and probably don't reflect the conditions for which a seawall should be designed for. Others may like to see it as well...perhaps there is a place it could be hosted on-line?

There are a couple of small issues... it was my neighbor who taped it. I simply edited it (a lot) and saved it as a file. It is his video, not mine, but I will discuss this with him. Shouldn't be a problem.
The second problem is that it may possibly give away my top secret identity. I'm just afraid there's a small possibility that John R and a couple of his buddies may hire a sniper. (JUST KIDDING, John R.!!)

Let me just simply re-edit it down to the point where you see key slices such as typical wave speed, typical wave reflection off the bluff, typical walkover collapse, etc. If it's made smaller, I'll possibly will be able to email it as an attachment and share it with everyone. I'll work on it.

Regarding designing a wall to handle just a "Dennis", no question a wall must be able to handle something much more stronger than Dennis. I fully agree with your statement.

My biggest hope right now is that we get a several year reprieve from Mother Nature, this is truly a mess.

This goes without saying, even though all of us have said it one way or another (or at least wished it).


I'll get back with you on the "edited edited" video.

Thanks!

BMBV,
For your header, after the word "quote" add "=username" (whatever their name is) and the message will read,

like this.

If the video is digital, you can upload it to www.youtube.com and post a link to it. Videos are limited to 10 min per video on that site. ;-)

The one thing that makes a huge difference in your video from BMB is that the storms were 90+ miles away, yet we still had major damage. If the storms were closer, you could and should expect larger and faster waves.

yuppie,

Cute.

Thanks for the post.

You're welcome.

Yippie.

Read the captions below the photos. It seems to me that the only difference is Man's decision to change things to better fit his life. See my new signature line.

Have we grown too accustomed to wanting everything NOW?

Read the captions below the photos. It seems to me that the only difference is Man's decision to change things to better fit his life. See my new signature line.

Have we grown too accustomed to wanting everything NOW?

Time is money.

Time is money.

Perhaps, but money is not time, and you certainly cannot buy actual time with money, but let's try to keep this dialog on seawalls, not time. ;-)

Perhaps, but money is not time, and you certainly cannot buy actual time with money, but let's try to keep this dialog on seawalls, not time. ;-)

That's exactly what some (not all) buyers of seawalls are trying to accomplish....buying time. "Time" which will enable them to get their homes on the market before the seawalls fail.

Read the captions below the photos. It seems to me that the only difference is Man's decision to change things to better fit his life. See my new signature line.

Have we grown too accustomed to wanting everything NOW?

Smiling Joe,

Unless your name is JoAnn (JOe for short) , I must assume that you realize that you are part of your observation quoted above. I respect that you wouldn't duck your part of the responsibilities.

BTW, do women have anything to do with man's short sightedness? Sorry, I digress.

Back to the topic...


Interesting post. Part of the caption in one of your photos stated:

"The beach was washed away to sea-taking taking the famous white sand-leaving sheer cliffs of discolored sand/dirt."

Sound familiar?

Hmmm....deja vu all over again. I made a post in another thread stating exactly that. I stated that the dunes were "restored" at the SOLE expense of the GF property onwer. A detractor stated they thought we (GF owners) were arrogant for thinking that we thought we were actually improving the condition of the beach and dunes by "speeding" up the process.

If one wants to slam me for using all that diesel fuel to truck in all that sand, well that's whole another issue that may be harder to defend. But at least I and other GF owners are pumping money into the local economy!!

Thanks for post. Also thanks for the bread crumb to help validate at least one of my views regarding "...leaving sheer cliffs of discolored sand/dirtcliffs". Nice to see that mother nature can destroy the beach (as we are accustomed to) all by herself without man's (and woman's) help back in 1975, before the intense beach front development of the last 20 years.

Beautiful day today. Need to go outside.

That's exactly what some (not all) buyers of seawalls are trying to accomplish....buying time. "Time" which will enable them to get their homes on the market before the seawalls fail.

Shelly,

First of all, I believe you that if you left out the "some (not all)" part of your post above, I still would agree to it somewhat.....

If you were to leave that out then you could simply change the rest of your post to read...

"Time" which will enable some of them to get their homes on the market before some of the seawalls fail. ...and from my standpoint, that would be 100% accurate.

BTW I think survival of a retaining wall does not equate to survival of the beach itself if these relentless storms don't let up and if we don't do beach renoursihment.

We're all "buying time", one way or another.

Do you agree?

Thanks!

Smiling Joe,

Unless your name is JoAnn (JOe for short) , I must assume that you realize that you are part of your observation quoted above. I respect that you wouldn't duck your part of the responsibilities.

BTW, do women have anything to do with man's short sightedness? Sorry, I digress.

Interesting post. Part of the caption in one of your photos stated:

"The beach was washed away to sea-taking taking the famous white sand-leaving sheer cliffs of discolored sand/dirt."

Sound familiar?

Hmmm....deja vu all over again. I made a post in another thread stating exactly that. I stated that the dunes were "restored" at the SOLE expense of the GF property onwer. A detractor stated they thought we (GF owners) were arrogant for thinking that we thought we were actually improving the condition of the beach and dunes by "speeding" up the process.

If one wants to slam me for using all that diesel fuel to truck in all that sand, well that's whole another issue that may be harder to defend. But at least I and other GF owners are pumping money into the local economy!!

Thanks for post. Also thanks for the bread crumb to help validate at least one of my views regarding "...leaving sheer cliffs of discolored sand/dirtcliffs". Nice to see that mother nature can destroy the beach (as we are accustomed to) all by herself without man's (and woman's) help back in 1975, before the intense beach front development of the last 20 years.

Beautiful day today. Need to go outside.

Much of the time when I make a statement, I am looking in the mirror and sharing what I am learning. Very few people can say they are not a part of the problem. I certainly am not one of those few.

I guess my post of the photos and copy was to show that the beach recovered, even though it took twenty years after Eloise, then, it was washed away again. The beach and dune system are an ever changing thing. The beaches did not recover from importing much sand and building seawalls. The beaches recovered by letting nature take more of the dunes, building replacement beaches from the dunes. If Man were not involved, the dune system would continue to build, but farther back geographically.

If you want to keep something forever, let it go. If you want to lose it quickly, squeeze it tightly until it can no longer breathe (read "seawall").

Is this the seawall to which you were referring, BMBV?








There is currently no support on the back side of this wall. The ditch is dug out maybe 8' deep and they tap the pieces of wall into the ground a little bit. They are balanced somewhat by an I beam resting unsecured on the ground. Tie rods have been drilled into the dunes, but where is the framing? Will there be any other than the tie down rods?