Deer Lake State Park [update - not closing]

Has anyone else out here noticed that the Coastal Dune Lake Advisory Board is influenced by St. Joe through Mary Rosenheim? At about the same time of her installation to the Board, The St. Joe Company purchased a controlling interest in Wild Heron and its frontage on Lake Powell. It has been rumored for some time that Lake Powell is under consideration for a more permanent opening to the Gulf through a gulf/lake pass. Again, coincidentally, JOE purchased the Bay Point Marina in an effort to have a more complete series of points of conection to the waterways of North West Florida.

Trivia questions: 1. Does the Coastal Dune Lake Advisory Board have the authority to open connections to the gulf? 2. Who else has the same permission? 3. How many JOE communities front on Coastal Dune Lakes? 4. How many CDL's are there in the world? 5. Who has more present influence over openings of CDL's to the Gulf than JOE? 6. Is Deer Lake State Park the planned access to the Gulf for any of JOE's competitors?

Others are likely more well versed in your answers but I think I am right on a few of them as I was a technical advisor many years ago when the baord was first established. Also, I have numbered your original questions in hope of keeping them straight (for me).

First MR is no longer on the advisory board. As for your questions:

1. No the CDL does not have the authority to open connections.

2. In Walton County, only the County has the ability to get a permit for the opening.

3. Three St. Joe communities have property fronting the CDL, as do a number of other private owners.

4. There is no good accounting of how many CDL's exist in the world although a number of locations are frequently mentioned. There are extremely rare, but no one truly knows exactly how rare.

5. The most frequently opened lake in Walton County is Eastern Lake in which St. Joe owns no property so I don't see how they have "more influence" than anyone else.

6. I don't know.

While I wouldn't put anything past St. Joe, this isn't an isolated incident.

Parks & historic sites across the country are being closed or having reduced hours and services due to budget cuts.

Personally I could find FAR better places to cut items out of the budget - starting w/ perks, travel, and per diems for politicians.

I wouldn't mind a bit to see all these parks sold off for development in private hands and the proceeds of sale going to pay off government debt. Further, at least an equal amount of government programs and offices should be closed immediately too.

I wouldn't mind a bit to see all these parks sold off for development in private hands and the proceeds of sale going to pay off government debt. Further, at least an equal amount of government programs and offices should be closed immediately too.

NO! Our parks, nature preserves, forests etc. should NOT be privatized!

Budget cuts can be made MANY other places that do not reduce our quality of life. Closing a park or selling it off affects thousands and is irrevocable - taking away an excessive government perk or looking for increased efficiency is a far better idea.

Others are likely more well versed in your answers but I think I am right on a few of them as I was a technical advisor many years ago when the baord was first established. Also, I have numbered your original questions in hope of keeping them straight (for me).

First MR is no longer on the advisory board. As for your questions:

1. No the CDL does not have the authority to open connections.

2. In Walton County, only the County has the ability to get a permit for the opening.

3. Three St. Joe communities have property fronting the CDL, as do a number of other private owners.

4. There is no good accounting of how many CDL's exist in the world although a number of locations are frequently mentioned. There are extremely rare, but no one truly knows exactly how rare.

5. The most frequently opened lake in Walton County is Eastern Lake in which St. Joe owns no property so I don't see how they have "more influence" than anyone else.

6. I don't know.

When Did Mary leave the post?

Does anyone from JOE sit on the Advisory Board at this time?

I'm counting The Retreat/Draper....Watercolor/Western......Watersound West Beach/Deer Lake.....Watersound Beach/Camp Creek......Watersound(North)/Lake Powell so far.

I understand that it is on the advice of the CDL Board that the lakes are opened.

What would you estimate the increase in Real Estate valuation would be for JOE's holdings on Lake Powell if a more regularly navigable pass were openend and maintained? My guess......$600,000,000

FYI for anyone who is interested:

I emailed Governor Crist this morning and asked that he reconsider the closing of Deer Lake. I received a reply from one of his aides in the Legislative Office and she indicated that my concern would be added to the information they had on park closing; she also suggested I contact my local legislative delegation, which I have done.

I know from my years in the Governor's office that information from the local community counts more than most other information, so if anyone else wants to add to the emails, you can reach the Governor via: Charlie.Crist@myFlorida.com.

When Did Mary leave the post?

Does anyone from JOE sit on the Advisory Board at this time?

I'm counting The Retreat/Draper....Watercolor/Western......Watersound West Beach/Deer Lake.....Watersound Beach/Camp Creek......Watersound(North)/Lake Powell so far.

I understand that it is on the advice of the CDL Board that the lakes are opened.

What would you estimate the increase in Real Estate valuation would be for JOE's holdings on Lake Powell if a more regularly navigable pass were openend and maintained? My guess......$600,000,000

I will check on Mary as I may be wrong but it was my understanding that she had left the CDL Board, but she is still on the County's CDL website. I don't remember who would have filled that position but will try to find that out also.

I was thinking of the Retreat, Watercolor and Watersound as the three communities not the distinct pieces. Please be aware that Deer Lake, Camp Creek, or Draper have never been opened "officially" by anyone, unless DuneLaker knows of a time way back, and in today's permitting climate it is not getting any easier to get permits for new lake openings.

The opening of the lakes are due to emergency conditions and impacts to structures on upland properties that would lisk health and safety. Not docks and accesory structures, but septic tanks and major habitable structures. To that point, I am unaware of any St. Joe property that would meet those conditions as they are set back from the wtaer's edge far enough that the triggering event would be a single family residence outside the property boundries of a St. Joe community.

As for Lake Powell, I do not believe that they would ever get the state and/or federal permits to open and maintain an opening. Furthermore, if they did I am very confident that Walton County would stringently object due to the downdrift impacts caused from the opening of the channel. it would most likely lead to downdrift erosion of the Camp Helen/Inlet Beach area (which is already deemed "critically eroded" by the state), and impacts might be observed in the Rosemary Beach area. Moreover, the actual pass would be unable to maintained without structures leading to even more permitting and impacts. I guess my point is that on the state and federal levels the likelihood of this occurring is extremely slim.

I will check on Mary as I may be wrong but it was my understanding that she had left the CDL Board, but she is still on the County's CDL website. I don't remember who would have filled that position but will try to find that out also.

I was thinking of the Retreat, Watercolor and Watersound as the three communities not the distinct pieces. Please be aware that Deer Lake, Camp Creek, or Draper have never been opened "officially" by anyone, unless DuneLaker knows of a time way back, and in today's permitting climate it is not getting any easier to get permits for new lake openings.

The opening of the lakes are due to emergency conditions and impacts to structures on upland properties that would lisk health and safety. Not docks and accesory structures, but septic tanks and major habitable structures. To that point, I am unaware of any St. Joe property that would meet those conditions as they are set back from the wtaer's edge far enough that the triggering event would be a single family residence outside the property boundries of a St. Joe community.

As for Lake Powell, I do not believe that they would ever get the state and/or federal permits to open and maintain an opening. Furthermore, if they did I am very confident that Walton County would stringently object due to the downdrift impacts caused from the opening of the channel. it would most likely lead to downdrift erosion of the Camp Helen/Inlet Beach area (which is already deemed "critically eroded" by the state), and impacts might be observed in the Rosemary Beach area. Moreover, the actual pass would be unable to maintained without structures leading to even more permitting and impacts. I guess my point is that on the state and federal levels the likelihood of this occurring is extremely slim.

I have traversed th pass at Lake Powell several times by boat when conditions are favorable. The CDL Board has the ability to recommend the opening to the permitting authority at any time it should choose to. If anyone has the clout and motivation to have a pass maintained at Lake Powell it is JOE. I just thought it coincidental that a igh ranking JOE exec with civil engineering expertise fond her position at the Board.

Draper lake was opened officially if I remember correctly and it was pretty recently.

AAbsolute, St. Joe can use all the influence they like, however the "land" that exists where an opening could be installed is owned by Pinnacle Port and the next land owner to the west would be the State of Florida and Camp Helen state park. I seriously doubt that St. Joe is going to try and open a permanent pass as Wild Heron doesn't really have an area to install a marina nor would the DEP allow such construction on a CDL. To go thru this effort doesn't make sense considering the amount of land that Joe owns on the intercoastal.

I have traversed th pass at Lake Powell several times by boat when conditions are favorable. The CDL Board has the ability to recommend the opening to the permitting authority at any time it should choose to. If anyone has the clout and motivation to have a pass maintained at Lake Powell it is JOE. I just thought it coincidental that a igh ranking JOE exec with civil engineering expertise fond her position at the Board.

It could be less conspiracy and more local involvement by Joe employees as it is one of their missions.

Draper lake was opened officially if I remember correctly and it was pretty recently.

I think this was not official, just some yahoos.

I want to make a distinction between opening a coastal dune lake and keeping it open permanently.
As to opening a lake, while it is true that the CDLAB can recommend opening a lake at any time, the actual permit to do so is issued by the DEP. Lake Powell was the first lake to receive a permit of this type from the DEP. The water level must reach a predetermined level before the permit kicks in and the lake can be legally opened. That level takes a lot of data into consideration, such as septic tanks, structure foundations, historical levels of the lake, etc., and is based on surveys. The county applied for similar permits for some of the other lakes, which are called "no notice" permits, because no notice is required. Once the designated level is reached, the county can go ahead and open the lake with no notice. I am not sure of the status of those permit applications at this time - they were, last I heard, dragging on slowly, and I don't recall exactly which lakes are involved. It is a lengthy process to do all the required surveying and determine the appropriate level for opening.
From time to time, the county opens one or another lake on an emergency permit basis. This emergency permit needs to come from the DEP. The county requests permission from the DEP, with or without advice from the CDLAB.
As to keeping a CDL open on a permanent basis, that would require some sort of armoring. Armoring a CDL would require a change to the county comp plan as it is currently not allowed. And the state would have something to say about it. Seems not very likely to be permitted at this time, but you never know.
So far as influence goes, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. One reason Eastern Lake gets a lot of attention is because there are active, vocal people living there who contact the county when the lake level rises.
There was a time a few years ago when JOE tried to claim the Camp Creek outlet beach. A JOE security guard ran off kayakers, and as a result a lot of people started kayaking down to the outlet and waving at JOE security. It was in the papers and JOE backed off. Probably the adjacent owners at the lake outlets are the biggest threat to the lakes. Many of them don't understand theh hydraulics or the ecology of the lakes and keep screwing around with the outlets.
As to selling off ANY of the state lands for development I am adamently opposed.

It could be less conspiracy and more local involvement by Joe employees as it is one of their missions.

I wouldn't call it conspiracy either. I think I heard someone on the message board recently call it good planning. I say more power to them.

There are plenty of docks on Lake Powell including the one recently installed on another of JOE's Executives property just inside the Walton County line. No need to break confidence, but suffice it to say he is high ranking.

NO! Our parks, nature preserves, forests etc. should NOT be privatized!

Budget cuts can be made MANY other places that do not reduce our quality of life. Closing a park or selling it off affects thousands and is irrevocable - taking away an excessive government perk or looking for increased efficiency is a far better idea.

Something substantial has got to be done immediately with government spending. Our country has never had a government budget as large a percentage of the GDP as it has now and it's going higher and higher. Yes, it's going to hurt in some way, but there is no way around it. There really isn't. To think there is is an afront of clear macro-economic history. The Government has no place or business in the majority of areas it's involved in.

Something substantial has got to be done immediately with government spending. Our country has never had a government budget as large a percentage of the GDP as it has now and it's going higher and higher. Yes, it's going to hurt in some way, but there is no way around it. There really isn't. To think there is is an afront of clear macro-economic history. The Government has no place or business in the majority of areas it's involved in.

I agree that we need to take a good hard look at our bloated budgets and out of control spending, but selling off our parks should be a last resort, not a first.

The amount realized by the sale of these community assets is comparable to the amount we outright waste in a year. Waste and perks need to go buh-bye, not our natural gems.

I am certainly no avid environmentalist and whiles I agree the government has no business in a lot of the areas in which it is involved, the parks should remain in the control of government. One of the best programs by the National Park Service for senior citizens is the "Golden Passport" program. If we turn our local parks over to developers and other business interests, it will be no time at all until they become gated communities available only to an elite few. Keep the parks under government control and operation, fund them properly and give all citizens the right to enjoy them at a reasonable price. There are plenty of other programs that are more suitable to being taken from government and turned over to the private sector than parks.

I have traversed th pass at Lake Powell several times by boat when conditions are favorable. The CDL Board has the ability to recommend the opening to the permitting authority at any time it should choose to. If anyone has the clout and motivation to have a pass maintained at Lake Powell it is JOE. I just thought it coincidental that a igh ranking JOE exec with civil engineering expertise fond her position at the Board.

I follow you and agree that they do have clout; however, they would also be going against a variety of other gorillas if they pursued a permanent opening that would negatively impact the adjacent landowners. One which is EBSCO in Inlet Beach and then Rosemary Beach.

As for Mary's involvement, St. Joe has been involved from the beginning with the original CDL task force before it became an advisory board. The task force included a number of technical experts, local environmentalists, property owners, developers, and county staff. I am not too good on this but if my memory from 7+ years ago is correct, the first group included (and I am sorry if I included you and you weren't involved or if I left you off):

Tommy Ervin, Topsail Hill State Preserve
Scott Jackson, FL Sea Grant
Brad Pickel, TDC
Julie Terrell, Florida Lakewatch (now with CBA)
Earl Day, Eastern Lake Resident
Van Ness Butler, County Commissioner
Britt Greene, Watercolor
Celeste Cobena, Beach to Bay
Mike D'Autilla
Billy McKee (or someone else from the County's planning dept.)
Another resident on Eastern Lake that had a fisheries background.
And at least one or two more that I am forgetting.

Once it went to an Advisory Board, other changes were made like the addition of Phillip Ellis from Choctawhatchee Basin Alliance, and a couple of more residents (maybe Judi Rutland and Susan Burgess?) I don't know who all is involved now.

The point I am trying to make is that unless the makeup of the CDLAB is substantially different, I cannot ever see the CDLAB advocating a permanent opening, especially not one with the structures it would require to keep it open.

I think this was not official, just some yahoos.

I remember yahoos at Western Lake, but I'm pretty sure that Draper was a back-hoe.

I agree that we need to take a good hard look at our bloated budgets and out of control spending, but selling off our parks should be a last resort, not a first.

The amount realized by the sale of these community assets is comparable to the amount we outright waste in a year. Waste and perks need to go buh-bye, not our natural gems.

I agree with everything you said and wouldn't rule out liquidating the parks if the relief was not realized through the immediate closings and cutting.

I follow you and agree that they do have clout; however, they would also be going against a variety of other gorillas if they pursued a permanent opening that would negatively impact the adjacent landowners. One which is EBSCO in Inlet Beach and then Rosemary Beach.

As for Mary's involvement, St. Joe has been involved from the beginning with the original CDL task force before it became an advisory board. The task force included a number of technical experts, local environmentalists, property owners, developers, and county staff. I am not too good on this but if my memory from 7+ years ago is correct, the first group included (and I am sorry if I included you and you weren't involved or if I left you off):

Tommy Ervin, Topsail Hill State Preserve
Scott Jackson, FL Sea Grant
Brad Pickel, TDC
Julie Terrell, Florida Lakewatch (now with CBA)
Earl Day, Eastern Lake Resident
Van Ness Butler, County Commissioner
Britt Greene, Watercolor
Celeste Cobena, Beach to Bay
Mike D'Autilla
Billy McKee (or someone else from the County's planning dept.)
Another resident on Eastern Lake that had a fisheries background.
And at least one or two more that I am forgetting.

Once it went to an Advisory Board, other changes were made like the addition of Phillip Ellis from Choctawhatchee Basin Alliance, and a couple of more residents (maybe Judi Rutland and Susan Burgess?) I don't know who all is involved now.

The point I am trying to make is that unless the makeup of the CDLAB is substantially different, I cannot ever see the CDLAB advocating a permanent opening, especially not one with the structures it would require to keep it open.

Sorry we didn't get the proverbial honeymoon before our first quarrel. I disagree with quite a bit of your assertions.

Neither EBSCO or The Village at Inlet Beach AKA Rosemary Beach Land Company are adjacent landowners. Jason's (EBSCO) got a piece close, but not close enough to effectively oppose.

Next, either of the aforementioned are corporate peers of JOE who may very well acquire JOE in the next year if the table is set properly. That said, those gorilla's are as cozy as SWGB with a pretty boy from the Keys. If so, there's no man nor beast for 600 miles whose gonna effectively oppose in a Court of Equity or Common.

The lakefront property owners in favor of developing a permanantly navigable pass for passenger boats outnumber the lakefront property owners who don't by 50 to 1. The businesses that would benefit feel the same way. The pass is already being used by passenger vessels intermitantly now.

It's time for those who don't have an eminent cause to have their vote counted properly 1/50th. Are you advocating raising taxes across the State to combat the will of the majority and a bunch of corporate gorilla's if they choose to exercise their collective might?

I agree with everything you said and wouldn't rule out liquidating the parks if the relief was not realized through the immediate closings and cutting.

With the enormity of the state's budget, it's hard to imagine that closing one tiny little state park will have ANY useful impact whatsoever. Let's don't use the small government argument as a proxy for opening up that property to development.

With the enormity of the state's budget, it's hard to imagine that closing one tiny little state park will have ANY useful impact whatsoever. Let's don't use the small government argument as a proxy for opening up that property to development.

Would it be o.k. with you if we sell one of the parks and use the proceeds to put in an annuity with perpetuity with specific purpose of maintaining all the parks on the Sowal coast forever?

I'm sure we the people can craft tight and specific language whereby the funds would be untouchable and provide self support forever. No more tax money for these ever again.

Would it be o.k. with you if we sell one of the parks and use the proceeds to put in an annuity with perpetuity with specific purpose of maintaining all the parks on the Sowal coast forever?

I'm sure we the people can craft tight and specific language whereby the funds would be untouchable and provide self support forever. No more tax money for these ever again.

Interesting idea, but the park that's sold is likely to be gone forever, unless we can insure that it sells to Nature Conservancy, or someone similar, who would turn right around and donate it back to the state. All seems a bit of a stretch, doesn't it?

Besides, I'm happy to see my tax money support state parks.

Interesting idea, but the park that's sold is likely to be gone forever, unless we can insure that it sells to Nature Conservancy, or someone similar, who would turn right around and donate it back to the state. All seems a bit of a stretch, doesn't it?

Besides, I'm happy to see my tax money support state parks.

Let's get a quieted Deed for Camp Helen and sell Camp Helen for about $35,000,000 by way of auction to whomever wants it most. The $35,000,000 can be put into a permanent and untouchable fund. 90% of the earned interest will be used as the only budget for the rest of the coastal parks in Sowal. The other 10% of the earned interest will be reinvested in the fund to ensure that the budget can increase in perpetuity. All current taxes raised in allocation to the budgets of same would be permanently stopped forever.

Interesting idea, but the park that's sold is likely to be gone forever, unless we can insure that it sells to Nature Conservancy, or someone similar, who would turn right around and donate it back to the state. All seems a bit of a stretch, doesn't it?

Besides, I'm happy to see my tax money support state parks.

Like I said the first time...

Sorry we didn't get the proverbial honeymoon before our first quarrel. I disagree with quite a bit of your assertions.

Neither EBSCO or The Village at Inlet Beach AKA Rosemary Beach Land Company are adjacent landowners. Jason's (EBSCO) got a piece close, but not close enough to effectively oppose.

Next, either of the aforementioned are corporate peers of JOE who may very well acquire JOE in the next year if the table is set properly. That said, those gorilla's are as cozy as SWGB with a pretty boy from the Keys. If so, there's no man nor beast for 600 miles whose gonna effectively oppose in a Court of Equity or Common.

The lakefront property owners in favor of developing a permanantly navigable pass for passenger boats outnumber the lakefront property owners who don't by 50 to 1. The businesses that would benefit feel the same way. The pass is already being used by passenger vessels intermitantly now.

It's time for those who don't have an eminent cause to have their vote counted properly 1/50th. Are you advocating raising taxes across the State to combat the will of the majority and a bunch of corporate gorilla's if they choose to exercise their collective might?

Maybe I need to focus myself and hopefully our portion of the discussion to why I chose to jump in. The reason was simple, I do not believe that St. Joe participating on the WALTON COUNTY CDLAB will have any effect on the permanent opening and maintenance of a coastal dune lake located in another county. Moreover, I do not believe that there is any possibility that any other CDL located within Walton County's political borders is subject to permanent opening. Finally, if there is a movement in Bay County to permanently open and maintain the outfall at Lake Powell there will be a number of people that will fight it due to the downdrift impacts. In the state of Florida it is estimated that 85% of all beach erosion is caused by the opening and maintenance of existing inlets. There are a number of coastal engineers that will be able to clearly demonstrate the impacts that would occur due to this action.

As for EBSCO, they own the first beachfront property located west of the Bay/ Walton County line. It is undeveloped and totals 4.5 acres. It will definitely be within the erosional zone and they contract with a coastal engineer that will be able to clearly testify to the likely erosional impact if it comes to it. Like I said before Rosemary is a little further so it's a toss up.