High School Test Scores

So could I but it never got results, so our kids went to (and one still is attending) a top-notch out of state boarding school with high standards, academic and otherwise. Very fortunate we've been able to do this -- it is insanely expensive and not an option for everyone, certainly was not our first choice; which is why I try to stay involved and continue seeking improvement in our schools here for all students.

It really is sad to see the gifted and talented kids not have their brilliances recognized, addressed, honored, cultivated. The usual pattern, for boys anyway, that I have observed, is for them to start cutting up and getting into trouble out of boredom. Then they get the rep of being trouble, and the chance of ever getting appropriately challenged in the classroom is farther off than ever. Sometmes I've seen this with girls also, but more often they push themselves to adapt and find a way, or get quiet and move in a depressive direction.

It is a crime the way we abuse our best and brightest, IMHO, not just against them but against the nation as a whole because we as a nation will not benefit from the amazing contributions they might make if properly educated.

I better not get started. Yeah, that's me not even warmed up on the subject yet.

Is there not a program for the talented and gifted? Here in Atlanta, the kids are put on an entirely different track once identified as "Talented and Gifted". Basically, these kids have their own wing of the middle school and are tracked into the AP/College level courses for High School. In asking about the "TAG" program for the elementary school, I was told the program was called "Quest" and these kids were identified and serviced. WHy would this program not continue into High School? I think it's the law that each child is entitled to the least restrictive environment... this includes kids on the high end of the spectrum as well. I would argue that a classroom that can not handle the individual learning pace of my gifted child is not offering her the least restrictive environment. Anyone care to comment?

Is there not a program for the talented and gifted? Here in Atlanta, the kids are put on an entirely different track once identified as "Talented and Gifted". Basically, these kids have their own wing of the middle school and are tracked into the AP/College level courses for High School. In asking about the "TAG" program for the elementary school, I was told the program was called "Quest" and these kids were identified and serviced. WHy would this program not continue into High School? I think it's the law that each child is entitled to the least restrictive environment... this includes kids on the high end of the spectrum as well. I would argue that a classroom that can not handle the individual learning pace of my gifted child is not offering her the least restrictive environment. Anyone care to comment?

Small rural districts like Walton cannot support such programs with the current budget cuts. When they have to cut something gifted programs are among the first to go. Here are some quotes from real experts.

"Rural districts like us, we've been literally bleeding to death," said Gary Tyrrell, assistant superintendent of the Mountain Grove School District, which has 1,550 students. The formula for cutting back in hard times was straightforward, if painful, Mr. Tyrrell said: Satisfy federal and state requirements first. Then, "Do as much as we can for the majority and work on down."

Unlike services for disabled children, programs for gifted children have no single federal agency to track them. A survey by the National Association for Gifted Children found that 22 states did not contribute toward the costs of programs for gifted children, and five other states spent less than $250,000

In Michigan, state aid for gifted students fell from more than $4 million a year to $250,000. Illinois, which was spending $19 million a year on programs for fast learners, eliminated state financing for them. New York was spending $14 million a year on education for the gifted but has now cut all money earmarked for gifted children, saying districts should pay for them out of block grants. Nearly one in four school districts in Connecticut have eliminated their programs for gifted students.

Basically school districts have no money but they get money based on having kids pass a below level test so they spend money on that and dont care about GAT students because they will get the money for them either way.

Schools, Facing Tight Budgets, Leave Gifted Programs Behind - The New York Times

This is an interesting article on this subject

Schools, Facing Tight Budgets, Leave Gifted Programs Behind - The New York Times

This is an interesting article on this subject

It's inflaming! I don't want to get on my soapbox about equality. Instead I am going to refocus on SWHS. I can say that I have met some wonderful full time residents who live along 30-A. They use and support the public school system of Walton County. I can't imagine these parents NOT pushing SWHS for higher standards. In the meantime, while we decide about moving to SoWal, I will watch and continue to ask questions about the school system. I have heard a lot of concerns on this board.... every school system has them. What I am looking for is the proactive approach this county needs to take to ensure quality education for its high school level students. I see progress in the elementary and middle schools. The ball is being dropped at the high school (on paper anyway). Who's going to pick it up and what changes are going to be made?

Small rural districts like Walton cannot support such programs with the current budget cuts. When they have to cut something gifted programs are among the first to go. Here are some quotes from real experts.

"Rural districts like us, we've been literally bleeding to death," said Gary Tyrrell, assistant superintendent of the Mountain Grove School District, which has 1,550 students. The formula for cutting back in hard times was straightforward, if painful, Mr. Tyrrell said: Satisfy federal and state requirements first. Then, "Do as much as we can for the majority and work on down."

Unlike services for disabled children, programs for gifted children have no single federal agency to track them. A survey by the National Association for Gifted Children found that 22 states did not contribute toward the costs of programs for gifted children, and five other states spent less than $250,000

In Michigan, state aid for gifted students fell from more than $4 million a year to $250,000. Illinois, which was spending $19 million a year on programs for fast learners, eliminated state financing for them. New York was spending $14 million a year on education for the gifted but has now cut all money earmarked for gifted children, saying districts should pay for them out of block grants. Nearly one in four school districts in Connecticut have eliminated their programs for gifted students.

Basically school districts have no money but they get money based on having kids pass a below level test so they spend money on that and dont care about GAT students because they will get the money for them either way.

I'm kind of lost on what your saying. When I was in the "gifted" program in school it was Federally funded. That may have changed, but the funding came, then, from the same funding sources for disabled children, including learning disabilities.

I'm kind of lost on what your saying. When I was in the "gifted" program in school it was Federally funded. That may have changed, but the funding came, then, from the same funding sources for disabled children, including learning disabilities.

That's precisely what I thought.

That's precisely what I thought.

This is a quote from the U.S. department of education
"States and localities are the primary sources of K-12 education funding and always have been."
I thought that was something everyone learned in 5th grade American history.

According to the U.S. department of education in 1991 only 5.7 was the federal share of public education. And by 2005 that had risen but still was only 8.3 percent. 45% came from state funds and 37.1 percent came from local governments. 65% of federal funds for education went to programs for students with disabilities and schools with economically disadvanteged students.

Lastly, the DOE says that 95 percent of federal money is sent directly to individual districts and states to be spent on 5 programs.
-ESEA title 1 (disadvantaged students)
-Idea part 1 (disabled students)
-Improving teacher quality
-Community learning centers
-English language learners
-Schools impacted by military bases.

So gifted and talented programs are not funded by the federal government and if states don't want to spend 95% their federal money on those 5 things then their only option is not to accept the money.

Did You Know ?

is there not a program for the talented and gifted? Here in atlanta, the kids are put on an entirely different track once identified as "talented and gifted". Basically, these kids have their own wing of the middle school and are tracked into the ap/college level courses for high school. In asking about the "tag" program for the elementary school, i was told the program was called "quest" and these kids were identified and serviced. Why would this program not continue into high school? I think it's the law that each child is entitled to the least restrictive environment... This includes kids on the high end of the spectrum as well. I would argue that a classroom that can not handle the individual learning pace of my gifted child is not offering her the least restrictive environment. Anyone care to comment?

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WOW

Your post is propaganda at it's best it uses the term "exceptional students" but it does not tell you what Florida considers an "exceptional student".

According to Florida Title XLVIII - K-20 Education Code an exceptional student is defined as "The term "exceptional student" means any student who has been determined eligible for a special program in accordance with rules of the State Board of Education. The term includes students who are gifted and students with disabilities who are mentally handicapped, speech and language impaired, deaf or hard of hearing, visually impaired, dual sensory impaired, physically impaired, emotionally handicapped, specific learning disabled, hospital and homebound, autistic, developmentally delayed children, ages birth through 5 years, or children with established conditions, ages birth through 2 years, with established conditions that are identified in State Board of Education rules pursuant to s.1003.21(1)(e)."

So of course if an exceptional student is one who is eligible for a special program the school will spend more on them than a "regular student".

I am disgusted that the school district would put this out there without an explanation of what the terms mean. But I guess if your citizens don't check then government agencies can do whatever they want.

WOW

Your post is propaganda at it's best it uses the term "exceptional students" but it does not tell you what Florida considers an "exceptional student".

According to Florida Title XLVIII - K-20 Education Code an exceptional student is defined as "The term "exceptional student" means any student who has been determined eligible for a special program in accordance with rules of the State Board of Education. The term includes students who are gifted and students with disabilities who are mentally handicapped, speech and language impaired, deaf or hard of hearing, visually impaired, dual sensory impaired, physically impaired, emotionally handicapped, specific learning disabled, hospital and homebound, autistic, developmentally delayed children, ages birth through 5 years, or children with established conditions, ages birth through 2 years, with established conditions that are identified in State Board of Education rules pursuant to s.1003.21(1)(e)."

So of course if an exceptional student is one who is eligible for a special program the school will spend more on them than a "regular student".

I am disgusted that the school district would put this out there without an explanation of what the terms mean. But I guess if your citizens don't check then government agencies can do whatever they want.

I want to clear up something in my previous post that I don't think I made clear and should have.

Florida is one of 16 states that includes gifted students in the exceptional students category. I support that classification because it keeps funding stable and makes sure that funding continues for gifted programs just as it would for disabled students.

Why I dislike the use of that chart is that I think some people might be confused by the term "exceptional" and take that to mean only gifted when in reality (I will try to find the numbers) gifted is only a small part of that overall program.

The state spent 4.2 billion dollars on exceptional students during the 2007-2008 school year 3.6 billion came from local and state funding and 609 million came from federal funding. Of that 4.2 billion dollars 276 million or approximately 6% was spent on gifted students funding.

I want to clear up something in my previous post that I don't think I made clear and should have.

Florida is one of 16 states that includes gifted students in the exceptional students category. I support that classification because it keeps funding stable and makes sure that funding continues for gifted programs just as it would for disabled students.

Why I dislike the use of that chart is that I think some people might be confused by the term "exceptional" and take that to mean only gifted when in reality (I will try to find the numbers) gifted is only a small part of that overall program.

The state spent 4.2 billion dollars on exceptional students during the 2007-2008 school year 3.6 billion came from local and state funding and 609 million came from federal funding. Of that 4.2 billion dollars 276 million or approximately 6% was spent on gifted students funding.

This discussion has been conducted at a very high level of understanding by those that have participated. As a former School Board member I understand the "exceptional classification" and am sure that Mark does as well.

I believe the chart (straight from the Fla. DOE website) is more revealing and raises many questions concerning the comparisons to surrounding counties, where their dollars are spent in those same classifications, and what they indicate about the focus of education in the WCSD.

Gifted students would be a part of the average and would provide some insight into emphasis on educational opportunities for those identified as "gifted".

Taking your 276 million spent state wide on "gifted students" would mean that the state wide average for each of the 67 school district would be 4.1 million per district on gifted programs

Sorry

Melscuba,

I think obviously this thread has gotten way off topic with that being partly my fault. The FCAT and SAT scores for South Walton are well below what they need to be and you are correct to be concerned with them. As other posters have said there are things the school is doing to try to raise them such as FCAT focus but as the board member said programs that improve FCAT scores don't highten the rigor of the curriculum and don't prepare students for college. I think the only way you can decide if this school is right for your children is if you visit it and talk to the teachers and students and parents that are at the school. For me personally I did not believe the rigor was high enough to adaquetely prepare me for college.

I will say that the parent involvement at South Walton is a big strength and the school as a whole is undoubtedly improving. There are also many smart students who want the school to improve. So I guess its just about what the parent wants for the students education because schools are definetly not one size fits all.

Thank you and sorry for taking the thread off topic
hkem1

This discussion has been conducted at a very high level of understanding by those that have participated. As a former School Board member I understand the "exceptional classification" and am sure that Mark does as well.

I believe the chart (straight from the Fla. DOE website) is more revealing and raises many questions concerning the comparisons to surrounding counties, where their dollars are spent in those same classifications, and what they indicate about the focus of education in the WCSD.

Gifted students would be a part of the average and would provide some insight into emphasis on educational opportunities for those identified as "gifted".

Taking your 276 million spent state wide on "gifted students" would mean that the state wide average for each of the 67 school district would be 4.1 million per district on gifted programs

Those are all valid points.

But your 4.1 million dollar average per district as I am sure you understand isn't really true because 44 percent of school funding comes from local county taxes so I would assume their is a large difference (as your chart shows) in what different counties spend on gifted students.

That statement may not be as true here in Florida but I know that in Texas some school districts have a lot more money based on who lives in that particular district.

I greatly appreciate your and marks help on this thread because I am sure your understanding on this is much higher than mine. I just want to try to understand what I am dealing with.

Are the numbers mean or median? With ESE kids, I really like to see both because there are some extremely high needs kids who can decidedly skew the numbers in terms of average expenditures. (ie. the kid who cannot move below the neck, is only marginally verbal, and requires a full time one on one aide in the classroom might be costing the district $40-$50K per year, but the kid who needs speech therapy three time a week is not a huge cost for the district)

I think the many discussions on funding for gifted children is exactly spot on. I do understand that gifted children fall under "exceptional children"... as they should. This is why I see it as against PL-142 to deny services to these kids because of lack of funding or "not enough students" to offer a more advanced curriculum. I don't think a parent of an autistic child would except that excuse and neither will I. Each child is entitled to the least restrictive environment. This includes gifted children.

You are correct in that we have gone off topic from FCAT scores. However, I see it as all under the same umbrella. Students reaching their full potential is what I want SWHS to be about... not mediocrity. Do I need my children's high school to spit out Ivy league ready students? Well, if that's what the kid wants, then yes. I am educated from state schools for both my Bachelor's and Master's and my life is pretty good. That's what I want for my kids... and I want it at the beach

This is all very interesting about the funding, how much is spent per child according to different types (exceptional, regular, etc.), but what I would like to know more about is how the WCSD has improved and will continue to improve their process for early identification of gifted and talented kids, and how they will improve the enrichment offered (or whatever the PC term is for providing appropriate/least restrictive education for every student).

When my sons were in WC schools, the powers-that-be would not even test for giftedness until 3rd grade. By that time, one of our boys was bored, making all A's with absolutely no effort at all, and was starting to get in trouble for cutting up; towards the end of 3rd grade he quit even caring about the busywork that was so not-challenging, and wouldn't be bothered to do a good job on stuff that was so far below the level where he needed to be. As for the behavior-he knew exactly how many checks he could get by his name in a given day without having any real consequences, and he maxed it out every day.

The other son was screechingly bored before the end of kindergarten, and was so miserable that we started homeschooling him before the end of his kindergarten year. This was a child who went into kindergarten absolutely thrilled about it, ready to read, so excited to go to school -- he had been to a good preschool for 2 years, had an enriched home environment, lots of books, reading, and also displayed early artistic talent creating complex sculptures and freehand drawings. So duh, coloring those worksheets and all that busy work drove him crazy.

I don't know where the root of the problem was, but I had tried working with principals, teachers, even superintendent, and could not get any results and did not have the heart to watch them destroy or discourage these fine bright spirits any longer. Homeschooling was the best option we could figure out at the time, and it worked out fantastic. Then Seaside Neighborhood School, and then out of state to boarding school.

A good number of families took their kids out of Butler after that school year, some of the most involved PTO folks and so on, because they were so disappointed with so very much about the school, and about the district's abject refusal to address parental concerns. I'm talking about involved, PTO parents, fundraisers, classroom volunteers -- they could not get anything but the stonewall treatment and "You're the first person/group who's ever brought this to our attention; we will look into the matter." Nothing was done except to circle the wagons more tightly. Two families we knew personally moved out of state in search of better schools, and several others stayed here and homeschooled.

That school is now under new leadership and I hear good things about it, so perhaps things are better now. Still, I would like to know specifically what the plan of action is around identifying and serving gifted and talented kids as early as possible; it seems an ongoing screening plan ought to be in place.

This is all very interesting about the funding, how much is spent per child according to different types (exceptional, regular, etc.), but what I would like to know more about is how the WCSD has improved and will continue to improve their process for early identification of gifted and talented kids, and how they will improve the enrichment offered (or whatever the PC term is for providing appropriate/least restrictive education for every student).

When my sons were in WC schools, the powers-that-be would not even test for giftedness until 3rd grade. By that time, one of our boys was bored, making all A's with absolutely no effort at all, and was starting to get in trouble for cutting up; towards the end of 3rd grade he quit even caring about the busywork that was so not-challenging, and wouldn't be bothered to do a good job on stuff that was so far below the level where he needed to be. As for the behavior-he knew exactly how many checks he could get by his name in a given day without having any real consequences, and he maxed it out every day.

The other son was screechingly bored before the end of kindergarten, and was so miserable that we started homeschooling him before the end of his kindergarten year. This was a child who went into kindergarten absolutely thrilled about it, ready to read, so excited to go to school -- he had been to a good preschool for 2 years, had an enriched home environment, lots of books, reading, and also displayed early artistic talent creating complex sculptures and freehand drawings. So duh, coloring those worksheets and all that busy work drove him crazy.

I don't know where the root of the problem was, but I had tried working with principals, teachers, even superintendent, and could not get any results and did not have the heart to watch them destroy or discourage these fine bright spirits any longer. Homeschooling was the best option we could figure out at the time, and it worked out fantastic. Then Seaside Neighborhood School, and then out of state to boarding school.

A good number of families took their kids out of Butler after that school year, some of the most involved PTO folks and so on, because they were so disappointed with so very much about the school, and about the district's abject refusal to address parental concerns. I'm talking about involved, PTO parents, fundraisers, classroom volunteers -- they could not get anything but the stonewall treatment and "You're the first person/group who's ever brought this to our attention; we will look into the matter." Nothing was done except to circle the wagons more tightly. Two families we knew personally moved out of state in search of better schools, and several others stayed here and homeschooled.

That school is now under new leadership and I hear good things about it, so perhaps things are better now. Still, I would like to know specifically what the plan of action is around identifying and serving gifted and talented kids as early as possible; it seems an ongoing screening plan ought to be in place.

Ditto! All I can say to the powers that be is that the tide is changing. I will be there to help facilitate change in the schools, but the problem must first be acknowledged. I feel this stretches into high achieving students who may not be identified as gifted, but who excel at school and need proper guidance in the school system. I want my public school system to meet the needs of my children. There is no reason to expect less. Our hearts are truly in SoWal. We want to raise our family there. However, I can't knowingly move to an area that has a problem with its high school system and isn't actively pursuing action for change. Hence, the start of this thread. Communication is the start and I see that happening right here on this board. Where does the WCSD go from here?

Real Food for School Lunches

Sep. 7 is "Time for Lunch", an event about bringing attention to the need for serious improvement in school lunches. Lots of very good information here.

Time For Lunch : The Time for Lunch Platform : Slow Food USA

Paging Mark Davis

Mark Davis, are you here? I would refer you to the post that just went up today in another thread (What do they feed our children or something like that) on the Local Gov't forum. It's about Time for Lunch and an event that's happening locally. Hoping you and your school lunch contact can make use of the educational materials/activities and get them into the classrooms while you're figuring out how to get fresh local real and healthy food into our lunchrooms.

Imagine the improvement in behavior alone if sugary and caffeinated sodas were banned from schools; and if breakfasts and lunches featured fresh fruits and veggies. ;-)

Thanks for keeping after this.

Ditto! All I can say to the powers that be is that the tide is changing. I will be there to help facilitate change in the schools, but the problem must first be acknowledged. I feel this stretches into high achieving students who may not be identified as gifted, but who excel at school and need proper guidance in the school system. I want my public school system to meet the needs of my children. There is no reason to expect less. Our hearts are truly in SoWal. We want to raise our family there. However, I can't knowingly move to an area that has a problem with its high school system and isn't actively pursuing action for change. Hence, the start of this thread. Communication is the start and I see that happening right here on this board. Where does the WCSD go from here?

Why are you assuming that the high school isn't actively pursuing change? There was a great change this year- going to a traditional schedule, and also the school being more flexible with scheduling time for Florida Virtual school classes. As a parent, I totally understand your concerns- we have them too. But just so you know, there has been communication started on quite a few issues in the SoWal schools, and many parents, teachers, admin, and some board members do "get it". I can't speak for North Walton, but I am sure they have committed parents and staff as well.

The dialogue and hard work didn't start with this thread- it has been going on for awhile, in many ways, both in public and behind the scenes. We look forward to having another involved family move to the area- there seems to be many new families in our schools this year!

Mark Davis, are you here? I would refer you to the post that just went up today in another thread (What do they feed our children or something like that) on the Local Gov't forum. It's about Time for Lunch and an event that's happening locally. Hoping you and your school lunch contact can make use of the educational materials/activities and get them into the classrooms while you're figuring out how to get fresh local real and healthy food into our lunchrooms.

Imagine the improvement in behavior alone if sugary and caffeinated sodas were banned from schools; and if breakfasts and lunches featured fresh fruits and veggies. ;-)

Thanks for keeping after this.

thanks, I will pass along the date to our food service coordinator....

Why are you assuming that the high school isn't actively pursuing change? There was a great change this year- going to a traditional schedule, and also the school being more flexible with scheduling time for Florida Virtual school classes. As a parent, I totally understand your concerns- we have them too. But just so you know, there has been communication started on quite a few issues in the SoWal schools, and many parents, teachers, admin, and some board members do "get it". I can't speak for North Walton, but I am sure they have committed parents and staff as well.

The dialogue and hard work didn't start with this thread- it has been going on for awhile, in many ways, both in public and behind the scenes. We look forward to having another involved family move to the area- there seems to be many new families in our schools this year!

I guess to clarify.. your information is exactly what I'm looking to hear. I want to know what is currently happening. I am aware of the schedule change and am glad for it as many posters seem to feel it will lead to improved instruction time. I am also aware of the Florida Virtual School offerings within the high school. These changes seem to both be positive. For me, a score of 46% on the FCAT is a situation that calls for immediate and sweeping change. I guess I'm looking for a sense of urgency. I have to ask myself if I'm willing to put my child in the school and wait to see of these few changes have a made a difference. I am, in the mean time, thrilled to have the dialogue in a forum that the change makers participate in. On another point, I have met many wonderful and dynamic people who live full time on 30-A. I have no doubt they are attentive and involved in their children's education and lives. I have moved several times in my life, but never with 3 school aged children in tow. It makes me more hesitant because I want this move to enhance their lives as much I know it will mine. This is the only "hole" in the plan... and its a biggie.