A speed bump on 30A... As citizens strive to lower speed limit, bigger plans emerge | 30a, speed, change - Local News - WaltonSun.com
A SPEED BUMP ON 30A: As citizens strive to lower speed limit, bigger plans emerge
January 08, 2010 10:30 AM
By Matt Algarin
Will 45 be a thing of the past on 30A?
Friends of Scenic 30A and members of the public gathered on Jan. 4 to discuss lowering the speed limit on 30A to 35 mph for the entire 18.5 mile stretch. The change would let low-speed vehicles, like street-modified golf carts, share the roadway with cars.
Bill Freeze, Chairperson for the Friends, believes the change will have nothing but positive end results.
?These beaches have been voted as one of the 12 best places to see in 2010.? Freeze said. ?We have noticed that we need to educate the tourists and the residents about what we have here in paradise.?
Freeze added that LSVs have to be registered and licensed, which will provide additional income for the county.
About two dozen supportive residents and industry experts gathered to hear the proposals made by the group.
In order for an electric cart or LSV to share the roadway with cars, the speed limit can be no greater than 35 mph. There are currently four miles of roadway on 30A where the speed limit is 45 mph.
In addition to allowing LSVs to traverse the roadway, supporters say the change would help to alleviate some of the traffic by encouraging motorists who are in a hurry to use the feeder roads that run north and south to get to their destinations.
Graham Fountain, chief of special operations for the Sheriff?s Office, clarified that this only pertains to electric carts, not golf carts.
?Because it looks like a duck, talks like a duck and quacks like a duck, but it?s a goose,? Fountain said while describing that anyone who is caught driving a gas-powered cart on 30A would be ticketed.
?The sheriff?s office will be taking a neutral position on the topic,? Fountain said of the speed-limit change. ?We haven?t pulled traffic (data) to see how many crashes involved these types of vehicles.?
?We do have some concerns because 30A is a little atypical than the usual roads you may do this on,? Fountain added. ?When the building starts up again on 30A you are going to have a lot more dump trucks and mixers going up and down the road.?
Tim Paul, who is a former district five commissioner and developer of Topsail Village on 30A, said changing the speed limit should be the first step.
?I think the whole idea is to have a complete system,? Pauls said. ?You shouldn?t have to only be able to use your LSV on 30A. You should actually be able to make a useful trip with it.?
Tom Stein, the Director for the Friends of Scenic 30A, agreed.
Stein said he ?has always had a lifetime interest in public transit and was a cable car grip man in San Francisco for four years.
?With my background in public transit and in addition to living here for the past 30 years or so watching the traffic load increase here on 30A,? Stein said, ?it has led me to the conclusion that some kind of public transit needs to be established on 30A.?
Stein said that the time is imminent and that something has to happen now.
The Friends of Scenic 30A will be holding another public forum on the first Monday in February to discuss updates on traffic crashes and the price tag for redesigning 30A for a bike path and low speed vehicles.
SGBSGBBeach FanaticSouth Walton1,034 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
SGBBeach FanaticSouth Walton1,034 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic51,440 views
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285robertsondaviesrobertsondaviesBeach Fanatic500 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
Now...DON'T get me wrong...but, 'we've'' been 'Sharing the Road' with Spandex Breakin' Away Folks for years...not to mention BCC road graders, 'mini=pads' , er peds...stop sign runners, Waste Management (can I say that) littering garbage trucks, frogs, turtles, snakes, 'possums, lions and tigers and bears...oh, my...for years...So, how's a few Gulf Snarks gonna bother us.
Huh?...oh, GOLF CARTS...nevvvvverminnnd...
... couldn't agree more... careful, an LSV hating mob is forming, and burning folks out of the area
robertsondaviesrobertsondaviesBeach Fanatic500 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
There are an enormous amount of reasons why golf carts are a really bad idea on 30-A, but I'll just mention one: emergency vehicles. When your house is burning down, do you really want the fire trucks and ambulances to have to deal with the idiots that are grooving along at fifteen miles an hour...there are enough problems to deal with in a community that has only one east-west highway, and adding another level of confusion is not the answer.
that's a valid concern, it truly is. But with all due respect, you also would have to consider, by your logic, that 'thing's like the Town of Seaside, with its numerous stops and pedestrian crossings, have to be removed... banished, as well as any other things that might impede Emergnecy Vehicle progress. Also you need to find a way to cut Summer Vacations to the area by half, so that 30a doesn't get congested that really truly slows down emergency vehicles.
Would you consider this bet? What vehicle is more likley to yield to an emergency vehicle, an LSV or an SUV? Nevermind that SUV's probably outnumber SUVs 100 to 1, I'd wager that both usually would yield, but that an LSV would yield at a better rate, say 99.99 percent, vs 97% for some music blaring SUV (getting 11 miles to the gallon) driven by Mrs. Valium Buckhead on her Modica run.
KurtKurtAdminSoWal2,470 postsJoined View profileMessageAdmin
KurtAdminSoWal2,470 postsJoined View profileMessageAdminSUVs and carts aren't going to mix well. If LSVs are prevalent in Seaside, WaterColor, Rosemary Beach, etc. and some of them spill on to Scenic 30A, some folks will freak out. That is the reality.
If carts could really travel 35 it might not be such a big issue but in reality they average much slower. The speed limit is not the issue to me, it is the actual speed and the manner in which carts are used.
But right now, the LSVs being pushed are TLSVs - too-low speed vehicles. If keeping the speed limits where they are is going to keep them off the roads then so be it. I believe in a few years we'll see a lot of electric vehicles, both 2 and 4-wheeled on Scenic 30A that are able to easily travel 35mph.
I am all for a Scenic 30A trolley that is efficient, as long as it has the ability to pull fully off the road at stops.
If carts could really travel 35 it might not be such a big issue but in reality they average much slower. The speed limit is not the issue to me, it is the actual speed and the manner in which carts are used.
But right now, the LSVs being pushed are TLSVs - too-low speed vehicles. If keeping the speed limits where they are is going to keep them off the roads then so be it. I believe in a few years we'll see a lot of electric vehicles, both 2 and 4-wheeled on Scenic 30A that are able to easily travel 35mph.
I am all for a Scenic 30A trolley that is efficient, as long as it has the ability to pull fully off the road at stops.
John RJohn Rneeds to get out moreConflictinator6,782 postsJoined View profileMessageneeds to get out more
John Rneeds to get out moreConflictinator6,782 postsJoined View profileMessageneeds to get out moreThe result of a match between golf cart and tahoe is predestined. As it stands today, the primary drivers of the golf carts(that i have seen) are grandma's with a cartful of children, children with a cartful of children, of moms with a cartful of chilfren. None of these scenarios ease the mind of whoever is driving behind one. Even though they are rigged with the minimum specs to make the street legal, they are still operated like they are golfcarts on the fairway. When one of the is one it's side with bodies strewn all over, I hope the rescue squad can get there fast enough at 35mph.
Robertsondavies, you paint such a pretty picture of your vision of 30A, albeit quite skewed. Where is the 19yr old, intoxicated springbreaker, driving daddy's full of more intoxicated passengers, hummer in your scenario? Take a deep look, it's not about us(the regular 30A driver), it's about them(those who don't live here and are not familiar).
Nothing good will become of lowering the speed limit to make allowance for golf carts on County Road 30A.
Robertsondavies, you paint such a pretty picture of your vision of 30A, albeit quite skewed. Where is the 19yr old, intoxicated springbreaker, driving daddy's full of more intoxicated passengers, hummer in your scenario? Take a deep look, it's not about us(the regular 30A driver), it's about them(those who don't live here and are not familiar).
Nothing good will become of lowering the speed limit to make allowance for golf carts on County Road 30A.
Matt JMatt JSWGB24,862 postsJoined View profileMessageSWGB
Matt JSWGB24,862 postsJoined View profileMessageSWGBSo you doubt the environmental impact of LSV's vs. SUV's?? If the inconvenience of allowing a couple more miles of 30a to be traversed by bonafide, qualified LSV's trumps your need for speed, then great. You're that intolerant of other iews, that those who disagree need to move to Sandestin??? This is the most intolerant thing I've ever seen you post. Basically, get out if you don't like my SUV spewing views.
SWGB, do you also proposing reversing LSV laws as they currently stand? Should we also have an additional by law to keep cyclists the hell off the "major 30 -A thoroughfare"? Perhaps Florida's Legislature could Re-Designate 30A as a major industrialized thoroughfare... those who disagree need not apply. Kicking out LSV's completely can speed up travel times to the new Wal - Mart by 35 seconds or more on occasion.
Quite the rant. I respect other peoples iews, whatever that is. Regardless of whether someone is driving an SUV or a sub compact, it burns more fuel at slower speeds stuck behind a LSV than it would at a cruising speed of 35-45 mph. You can put on your rose colored glasses and putter around all day long, but you're not saving the environment when there's 5-6 regular vehicles practically idling behind you.
As to being intolerant of vehicles that are designed for in community driving or resort driving being allowed on a major connector road, yes I'm intolerant. People seem to forget that 30A connects many smaller communities together. The LSV's are designed for those smaller communities and not all of 30A.
You can act like these LSV's are some sort of green miracle all you want, but the fact is that they either run on gas or they get plugged in which simply transfers the pollution to another community. The majority of our power comes from coal powered electric plants. In addition many of the chargers used are transformers, which means if left plugged in when not charging your faux green machine they are wasting electricity. Basically these things are like making sure you cut up your six pack ring before throwing it in the gulf.
Finally, LSV's wouldn't be able to go to Wal-Mart anyway as 98, by law and common sense, is not suitable for LSV's.
robertsondaviesrobertsondaviesBeach Fanatic500 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
Kurt, I do agree with your point about too slow e vehicles. If its a crappy golf cart "modified" to comply but can't go at least as fast as the numerous bicycles that travel on the road (with stax of idling cars behind them) then I can see some need for a decent minimum speed capability of say 25 MPH. If that can't be accomplished then you'll have my agreement that opening all of 30a to lowspeed golf carts with a couple reflectors is a bad idea. At the same time it would certainly call for a discussion of banning cyclists, although more responsible than most, they hold traffic up with aplomb rarely seen.
robertsondaviesrobertsondaviesBeach Fanatic500 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
Look LSV's are no panacea...I never said they were...SWGB makes a handful of good simple elegant points on LSV's not being a green miracle...and yet slightly outweighed by 'green' evidence to the contrary. The simple counterpoints on lsv's remind me of the anti-global warming arguments, which are appealing and contain veracity, mixing anecdote well.
If Al Gore reviewed the arguments for and against lsv's, he'd be on my side here. Despite the suggestion I look at sandestin, due to my supportive lsv position, I'll be staying on 30a, thanks. I'm still convinced 30a is the best and more open minded place.
If Al Gore reviewed the arguments for and against lsv's, he'd be on my side here. Despite the suggestion I look at sandestin, due to my supportive lsv position, I'll be staying on 30a, thanks. I'm still convinced 30a is the best and more open minded place.
LynnieLynnieSoWal InsiderSoBuc8,151 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Insider
LynnieSoWal InsiderSoBuc8,151 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal InsiderI admit, I was pulled over by the popo while driving my electric golf cart (doing my part to conserve on emissions, etc.). Deputy was really sweet and attempted to help fix my flat tire, which I didn't even know I had.........:floor:
Then, he told me it's not road worthy (and, I agree it isn't); so, I didn't drive it very far after that.
Then, he told me it's not road worthy (and, I agree it isn't); so, I didn't drive it very far after that.
Smiling JOeSmiling JOeSoWal Expert31,643 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Expert
Smiling JOeSoWal Expert31,643 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal ExpertI hate speed bumps anywhere as, as far as I concerned they not only insult my and other people's intelligence, they are hard on vehicles.Some people like to honk their horn every time they go over a speed bump. I'm not sure if it works getting them removed, but I imagine if everyone did it, we wouldn't have speed bumps any more.
I see both sides to the LSV in communities. For our community, it may help reduce the space needed for parking at beach accesses. However, it may also encourage more people to be lazy, as long as they are being green, and they may use the LSV to get their crap and themselves to the beach, when they might have otherwise walked. One thing missing from this conversation is that Seaside was designed with the idea of being a walkable community. It is only a five minute slow walk from the outer edges, to the center. It is also designed to be a community where you don't have to leave to enjoy everything. Other communities such as WaterColor and WaterSound are a bit more spread out, and don't fit that design, but I don't see people in WaterColor wanting to get on their LSV to go down to Rosemary Beach to eat dinner or shop. I don't see that changing with time. I believe that stretch near WaterSound is the location of the 45mph speed limit, and it is very fitting to the actual road, if you look at DOT guidelines.
I'm all for less emmissions, but is it really less if the alternative mode of transport is bicycle or foot?
robertsondaviesrobertsondaviesBeach Fanatic500 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
SJ, that's another good point, I'll have to concede, that making LSV's more dynamic on 30-a would probably encourage more lazy behaviour. It is not a one side issue, and there are those that gain by making 30A in its entirety more dynamically and COHESIVELY accepting of LSV's as some have apparently proposed.
You've hit the nail on the head with the point about Watersound area being the stretch that has 45 mph, and being the area that really is in question herein. I think it would be neat for folks in Watercolor, or Watersound, or Rosemary, or Seaside, or Seacrest, or Grayton, to enjoy the amentiies, grocery stores, shops, events, rep theater, etc, without having to pile everyone in the suburban america issue Nissan Armada. I really can see folks in Watersound or Seacrest totally preferring to ride an LSV down to Seagrove to pick up a cocktail and appetizer at La Botana, then run down to Seaside for some music on the central square and to take in the view from the Tarpon Club for a minute, before heading back to Watersound, stopping at Goatfeathers or Cocoons for some grub. I can envision the same thing for folks in Seagrove, who want to go and grab a coffee in Alys Beach, head to Rosemary for a photo op with Karl Rove, etc. Then again, in a better world, everyone would bike to do all those things, but that's the behaviour that I don't really see changing ... I see those that like to bike, walk etc, will continue to do that, and those who don't like to or can't get around that way, have no choice really, but to use the low mileague 6000lb curb weight vehicle to get around for fun or errands.
Lastly, one possible solution is that if the 1.4 Mile stretch of vaunted 45 MPH pavement is deemed by you all to be the pentultimate flex capacitor time saver/blackhole/accelerator then fine, would reasonable folks then agree, to for that stretch only, incorporate an additional cart path lane for LSV's. I think that solution is a bit over the top, but I'm having trouble really seeing how that little stretch is so valuable. What we really need is a couple pullover areas, for courtesy to rein - for Bikers and LSV's alike. A common sense approach. Lastly, I think the LSV statute for Florida is way too loosely written, for purposes of 30A. It does allow quite a bit of room, for way too slow and not 35MPH worthy "golf carts" to become licensed with addition of a taped on mirror, reflectors, make shift turn signals etc.... I think some of those currently opposed and many others may agree to allow LSV's more dynamic cohesive access to 30A if Walton County required some road worthiness beyond whats contained in the statute itself.
I think allowing LSV's more dynamic access to 30A in the end, actually willl have an additional effect of increasing the enjoyment and therefore value, of any house that is further than 300 yards away from the beach. That means that gulf front becomes a little less exclusive, as does very close to the beach property. This makes beach front ownership or beach proximity a bit less exclusive, in that it socializes some access issues, even in South Walton where there is a very finite amount of buildable lots .
peace grease and chicken wings,
out
You've hit the nail on the head with the point about Watersound area being the stretch that has 45 mph, and being the area that really is in question herein. I think it would be neat for folks in Watercolor, or Watersound, or Rosemary, or Seaside, or Seacrest, or Grayton, to enjoy the amentiies, grocery stores, shops, events, rep theater, etc, without having to pile everyone in the suburban america issue Nissan Armada. I really can see folks in Watersound or Seacrest totally preferring to ride an LSV down to Seagrove to pick up a cocktail and appetizer at La Botana, then run down to Seaside for some music on the central square and to take in the view from the Tarpon Club for a minute, before heading back to Watersound, stopping at Goatfeathers or Cocoons for some grub. I can envision the same thing for folks in Seagrove, who want to go and grab a coffee in Alys Beach, head to Rosemary for a photo op with Karl Rove, etc. Then again, in a better world, everyone would bike to do all those things, but that's the behaviour that I don't really see changing ... I see those that like to bike, walk etc, will continue to do that, and those who don't like to or can't get around that way, have no choice really, but to use the low mileague 6000lb curb weight vehicle to get around for fun or errands.
Lastly, one possible solution is that if the 1.4 Mile stretch of vaunted 45 MPH pavement is deemed by you all to be the pentultimate flex capacitor time saver/blackhole/accelerator then fine, would reasonable folks then agree, to for that stretch only, incorporate an additional cart path lane for LSV's. I think that solution is a bit over the top, but I'm having trouble really seeing how that little stretch is so valuable. What we really need is a couple pullover areas, for courtesy to rein - for Bikers and LSV's alike. A common sense approach. Lastly, I think the LSV statute for Florida is way too loosely written, for purposes of 30A. It does allow quite a bit of room, for way too slow and not 35MPH worthy "golf carts" to become licensed with addition of a taped on mirror, reflectors, make shift turn signals etc.... I think some of those currently opposed and many others may agree to allow LSV's more dynamic cohesive access to 30A if Walton County required some road worthiness beyond whats contained in the statute itself.
I think allowing LSV's more dynamic access to 30A in the end, actually willl have an additional effect of increasing the enjoyment and therefore value, of any house that is further than 300 yards away from the beach. That means that gulf front becomes a little less exclusive, as does very close to the beach property. This makes beach front ownership or beach proximity a bit less exclusive, in that it socializes some access issues, even in South Walton where there is a very finite amount of buildable lots .
peace grease and chicken wings,
out
KurtKurtAdminSoWal2,470 postsJoined View profileMessageAdmin
KurtAdminSoWal2,470 postsJoined View profileMessageAdminIt is also 45 mph just west of Grayton Beach.
Matt JMatt JSWGB24,862 postsJoined View profileMessageSWGB
Matt JSWGB24,862 postsJoined View profileMessageSWGBRobertsondavies, the problem with your last argument is simply that generally the people who prefer LSV's to bicycles or walking are lazy or "right now" kind of people. They aren't going to take a leisurely drive down 30A for 20 minutes from Water Sound to Seagrove, they are going to use the SUV as it will afford them the ability to fly through the 35 mph areas at 45-50. They are not concerned with being green, they are concerned about getting somewhere quickly. Thus the LSV to get to the beach, community pool, or other area IN their communities.
Lake View TooLake View TooSoWal InsiderEastern Lake7,000 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Insider
Lake View TooSoWal InsiderEastern Lake7,000 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal InsiderThere are many stretches of 30-A that are 45MPH. I don't think it will ever be as urbanized that it will be that conducive to LSV. You also have to consider the amount of visitors that drive here. Are they also going to have an LSV parked here in their extremely limited parking spots to begin with? And the more important issue is what about the people that work here? What about delivery trucks, pick-up trucks, 18 wheelers, RE salespeople with multiple clients, anyone with a job? All these people have to get somewhere at a respectable, reliable rate. And that simply isn't going to happened with a influx of LSVs. It's a poor idea pandering to a small minority of visitors with extemely selfish motives, IMHO.
robertsondaviesrobertsondaviesBeach Fanatic500 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
What about delivery trucks, pick-up trucks, 18 wheelers, RE salespeople with multiple clients, anyone with a job? All these people have to get somewhere at a respectable, reliable rate. And that simply isn't going to happened with a influx of LSVs. It's a poor idea pandering to a small minority of visitors with extemely selfish motives, IMHO.[/QUOTE]
Dude, LSV's are allowed in Seaside, and on most of 30A right now. Has UPS stopped operations in the area? RE Salespeople??? I think they can still manage to get around no? These are your arguments? OK, I don't think I'll convert you to the yes camp. touche
Dude, LSV's are allowed in Seaside, and on most of 30A right now. Has UPS stopped operations in the area? RE Salespeople??? I think they can still manage to get around no? These are your arguments? OK, I don't think I'll convert you to the yes camp. touche
robertsondaviesrobertsondaviesBeach Fanatic500 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
It is also 45 mph just west of Grayton Beach.
I'm willing to keep the small tiny stretches west of Grayton industrialized as major thoroughfares at 45 MPH, not 35 MPH, if that will apease the anti LSVers as a compromise. It's literally just the 1.2 mile stretch at Watersound that is at issue.
How much time do folks actually save by going 45 MPH for 1.2 miles, instead of 35 MPH? Any physics or algebra majors here? I'd like to put a number on it. Is it 10 seconds? 15 seconds? I'll be the over under is 8 seconds?
robertsondaviesrobertsondaviesBeach Fanatic500 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Fanatic
SWGB, do you have any interest, tangible or contingent, in any dealership, repair, rental, shine or polishing, leasing, of Large SUVs?
Smiling JOeSmiling JOeSoWal Expert31,643 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Expert
Smiling JOeSoWal Expert31,643 postsJoined View profileMessageSoWal Expert...If my old school terrible word problem math is accurate, the calculation would be 11.9994 seconds difference between the two speeds for that distance. However, it has been said that people wont on average ride these at max speed of 35mph, so that would be for the entire distance of the trip, not just the 1.2 miles, and there are other issues being brought up also.
How much time do folks actually save by going 45 MPH for 1.2 miles, instead of 35 MPH? Any physics or algebra majors here? I'd like to put a number on it. Is it 10 seconds? 15 seconds? I'll be the over under is 8 seconds?
One of my greatest fears is that people will treat the LSV like a golf cart, which are easy to drive, and they will be driven by kids who don't have a driver's license and have no idea of how to drive on a road, and that will lead to some bad stuff.
Can't we just get some old red Pontiac station wagons, remove the doors and install canvas red and white striped tops, and use them like they did in Fantasy Island? "Boss, da plane, da plane!"
Matt JMatt JSWGB24,862 postsJoined View profileMessageSWGB
Matt JSWGB24,862 postsJoined View profileMessageSWGBSWGB, do you have any interest, tangible or contingent, in any dealership, repair, rental, shine or polishing, leasing, of Large SUVs?
Nope, but I do have a heavily vested interest in common sense.
Pool PalPool PalBeach Lover70 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach Lover
Pool PalBeach Lover70 postsJoined View profileMessageBeach LoverSpeed limits along Hwy 30A should be maintained at the safe maximum. Any reduction in speed limit solely to benefit one business or one type of business will be to the economic loss of other businesses who must travel 30A and the connector roads. We all understand that we have to travel 20 mph or less during busy weekends and mid-day during the summer, but to have speed limits reduced the rest of the time and the rest of the year, without any public safety reason, is unreasonable. Public transportation during peak season would reduce the traffic load on Hwy 30A but I would hope it could be accomplished without permanently reducing speed limits along the entire road.
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