Public vs Private Beach [threads merged]

The sand belongs to human beings. It should unite us, not divides us.

You're absolutely right - at public beaches and parks.

BTW, the entire community is built on "sand".

......I am a new homeowner that spent a lot of money for a beautiful home, not directly on the beach but with the knowledge that these beautiful beaches are public and NOT restricted by homeowners who have oceanfront property.

Hey Conn006, I'm assuming your home buying experience is relatively fresh on your mind. Do you recall what comments (or lack of) your real estate agent made regarding your ability to access the beach when you bought your home? Did you buy your home expecting that you had full rights to ALL of the beach? Was anything put in writing regarding this subject by your agent (we all probably know the answer to this question)?

In other words, where did you get this "knowledge" that you refer to?

The reason I ask is that there's been a lot of talk of who's to blame for the current predicament - overcrowded public accesses and beaches - and now the private /public the mess we're in. I'm hoping you can shed some light.

Our knowledge is of course real estate agents, countless hours of research online, local and state websites, as we live out of state currently. We spent a lot of time talking to locals, new neighbors, neighbors who have been there 25 years, business owners and walking along the beaches---mind you we did not walk the entire 26 miles, but the areas we did, we did NOT see any signage indicating a private beach. No where online did we read of any private beaches along 30a.

Not one person ever mentioned anything about private beaches in the area and quite frankly, we just learned of this ridiculousness by coming upon this forum.

I am all for respectfulness of the beaches, not damaging or leaving trash. We need to keep these beaches pristine for the generations to come.

Conn006, I think you'll enjoy the area. Try not to get too consumed in all the bickering on this forum. However I am very guilty of this. But I pay for it with a lot of wasted time. And my theory is that there are only about 50 - 100 people who read these posts. And of course my hopeful influence on those people is admittedly a very very small percentage of that.

But one thing you mentioned struck a chord with me. And that is you said "quite frankly, we just learned of this ridiculousness by coming upon this forum." What I mean is that many times in the past I posed this question: "Has anyone not been able to find a spot on a public beach?" Since you didn't know about the private beach situation when you visited the public beach, that you didn't have any problems accessing the public beach. Nobody ever directly answered my question. I already know the answer judging by the lack of response. Which BMB access do you use?

But the problem then comes when some beach goers would rather move "down the beach a little ways" - away from the public beach area to find more space and solitude. Only in the past few years has this become an issue. And there is no question that the Retreat, as an example in BMB, is and has been extremely aggressive regarding their enforcement when this situation arises. At first I wondered why. Now I know.

Will you be moving down and living here full time soon or do you rent your home?

Conn006, I think you'll enjoy the area. Try not to get too consumed in all the bickering on this forum. However I am very guilty of this. But I pay for it with a lot of wasted time. And my theory is that there are only about 50 - 100 people who read these posts. And of course my hopeful influence on those people is admittedly a very very small percentage of that.

But one thing you mentioned struck a chord with me. And that is you said "quite frankly, we just learned of this ridiculousness by coming upon this forum." What I mean is that many times in the past I posed this question: "Has anyone not been able to find a spot on a public beach?" Since you didn't know about the private beach situation when you visited the public beach, that you didn't have any problems accessing the public beach. Nobody ever directly answered my question. I already know the answer judging by the lack of response. Which BMB access do you use?

But the problem then comes when some beach goers would rather move "down the beach a little ways" - away from the public beach area to find more space and solitude. Only in the past few years has this become an issue. And there is no question that the Retreat, as an example in BMB, is and has been extremely aggressive regarding their enforcement when this situation arises. At first I wondered why. Now I know.

Will you be moving down and living here full time soon or do you rent your home?

We do not rent, never will and will eventually move down full time. Your right, no point in getting upset over a small situation at this point. We've not had a problem getting a spot on the beach thus far and really don't expect to. We tried to buy away from Seaside and we use the access by Goatfeathers. I'm always overly passionate when I feel the little guy is being bullied. I need to continue to work on this!

Conn006, I think you'll enjoy the area. Try not to get too consumed in all the bickering on this forum. However I am very guilty of this. But I pay for it with a lot of wasted time. And my theory is that there are only about 50 - 100 people who read these posts. And of course my hopeful influence on those people is admittedly a very very small percentage of that.

There are 40 in my office alone who read it every day. Most of our knowledge and conversation about south walton comes from here. Just curious - you're posting hoping to influence people?

We do not rent, never will and will eventually move down full time. Your right, no point in getting upset over a small situation at this point. We've not had a problem getting a spot on the beach thus far and really don't expect to. We tried to buy away from Seaside and we use the access by Goatfeathers. I'm always overly passionate when I feel the little guy is being bullied. I need to continue to work on this!

Welcome to SoWal! Private beach issues, along with signs and Beach vendors are fairly recent issues here in South Walton. We have amazing residents and frequent visitors who are very active and vocal about protecting and preserving our beaches for everyone. You'll find good info here as well as other sources. Thanks for joining the conversation. Not everyone agrees on local issues and that's ok. Discussion is good and helpful for our community. Tip: If you see hostile or negative comments that aren't helpful to the discussion - just keep on scrolling..

There's no such thing as a private beach in my book but at the very least with Customary Use Doctrine it allows for access through private beaches. I believe when the dust clears and the judges eventually rule on this the private beachfront owners who are pushing this will have to accept that people will have access behind their houses as they always have.

.....Just curious - you're posting hoping to influence people?

Is that a good or bad thing? Or are you just trying to tell me I'm wasting my time?

Kurt,

You and I go back a long way (in SoWal time). I've admired your business acumen and sincerely appreciate this platform you provide. I believe you and I currently disagree on just one main issue - whether or not the beach should be public vs. private property rights. Of course there are all the splinter arguments that go along with this topic as discussed in this thread and elsewhere. And you're wise not to get too involved as you mentioned in a recent post, no matter how tempting.

I agree with you that it's probably too late for Florida to become an Oregon as far as the customary use argument. And very sadly, there's nothing but litigious activity on the horizon, with the county threatening to pile on. As mentioned before. our association has already had to fork out $50,000 to fight the county on a private easement situation. We prevailed in the Florida Supreme Court. It was a case that should not even have been filed in the first place but the BCC folded to the pressure from their constituents in our neighborhood. That's what I mean when I say it doesn't cost the individual commissioners a dime to file or force a lawsuit - only the taxpayers and the "wronged" party end up footing the bill.

As a capitalist and entrepreneur, I thought you'd be a little more empathetic with the idea of protecting one's private property rights. All of your business comes from BOTH sides of this argument. All this growth, which you help foster to some degree, BTW, is what has brought this topic to the forefront combined with self-entitled attitudes combined with politicians pandering to their constituency combined with agents and developers selling a deedless dream. It's a perfect recipe for an anti-private property rights lynch mob. And that's exactly where we are today.

I started out with absolutely nothing; went to college at my own expense working at grocery stores and got a student loan, made a few dollars working hard and invested heavily (by my economic standards) in Blue Mountain Beach gulf-front property because I loved its beauty and believed in the investment (still wondering about the ROI vs. original cost, plus maintenance, seawalls, sand. personal labor and heartache vs. a simple mutual fund - sadly I think I know the answer). It concerns me when the overall majority of posters try to continually classify beach front owners as "mean, rich and greedy" and only a hand full of posters (if that) jump in defense of these personal attacks. Perhaps some readers are just afraid to take a stand for private property rights for fear of personal attacks from these same people.

I do admit that I exhibit great emotion and motivation when I feel “wronged by the government" in any form. And these feelings naturally spill on to individuals and groups who, in my opinion, attempt to add credence to private property confiscation.

I really don’t know what’s worse, the beaches becoming public and out of control (compared to our existing private beach) or all this hostility of which I am a part of. And in my book, hostility is also defined as the actions of others trying to take what's yours.

In the end, this topic is like debating abortion. There is no winner – just a lot of raw emotions brought to the surface.

I appreciate you sharing your opinions on issues but I find it strange you're calling me out. Let's focus on the issues.
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Well, I

Good luck with that.

Well I've been here 5 days. The first evening I set up and carefully watched where people were in the water and waded to past the first sandbar and casted. A woman came up to me and told me it was dangerous and I should move. I thanked here and said I wasn't going anywhere and she needed to do what she needed to do. She left and the police came abut 20 minutes later. The officer could not have been nicer and told me I had as much right as anyone else on the beach. I'm now fishing from early morning until about 11 and going back about 5:30. Sure, it's not like it is in November but it's still fun and the redfish have been hitting.

Well, I

Well I've been here 5 days. The first evening I set up and carefully watched where people were in the water and waded to past the first sandbar and casted. A woman came up to me and told me it was dangerous and I should move. I thanked here and said I wasn't going anywhere and she needed to do what she needed to do. She left and the police came abut 20 minutes later. The officer could not have been nicer and told me I had as much right as anyone else on the beach. I'm now fishing from early morning until about 11 and going back about 5:30. Sure, it's not like it is in November but it's still fun and the redfish have been hitting.

Good luck fishing and I hope you get a good bull and have a wonderful time here. I would love to see some pictures!

And be sure to purchase your FL State fishing license, which is now required, even for surf fishing.

On the issue. some gulf front owners are A holes and some are awesome. But a few bad apples set the tone, even trying to keep people from walking on the beach. That's ridiculous! But all gulf front owners are now represented by the bad ones. Gulf front owners need to condemn the bad ones. Ruining the beach experience with signs and ropes needs to stop and we need to speak out.

There are LAWS and the owners don't know them all. They do NOT own all the way to the wet sand ( really not even close)"...Your response!"please show me your 2016 survey!!" They MUST update yearly!! If they can't furnish updated survey tell them they have no authority over where you are ..If they show you their southern property line survey and your or on it, apologize and move own.......Doubt you will move very often....

On the issue. some gulf front owners are A holes and some are awesome. But a few bad apples set the tone, even trying to keep people from walking on the beach. That's ridiculous! But all gulf front owners are now represented by the bad ones. Gulf front owners need to condemn the bad ones. Ruining the beach experience with signs and ropes needs to stop and we need to speak out.

On the issue. some tourists are A holes and some are awesome. But a few bad apples set the tone, even leaving trash, using glass and dogs off the leash. That's ridiculous! But all tourists are now represented by the bad ones. Good tourists need to condemn the bad ones. Ruining the beach experience with pee in dunes, glass on beach, dogs off leash and leaving trash behind needs to stop and we need to speak out.

On the issue. some tourists are A holes and some are awesome. But a few bad apples set the tone, even leaving trash, using glass and dogs off the leash. That's ridiculous! But all tourists are now represented by the bad ones. Good tourists need to condemn the bad ones. Ruining the beach experience with pee in dunes, glass on beach, dogs off leash and leaving trash behind needs to stop and we need to speak out.

Sorry but you can't fix this with enforcement. South Walton is now overrun with tourism and so many of them don't have respect or manners. Honestly - I would sell my beach property or rent it out is I owned any. No worth the hassle. And I wouldn't want to have to rely on police around here to protect anything, especially stupid stuff like glass on the beach and dune destruction. The county sanctioned dune destruction with seawalls and letting people build wherever they want. Were you one of them,?

Tourism has flooded in. You are the little girl with your finger in the dike. But the seal level has risen and is spilling over.

The alternative is to chill out and have a cocktail. Don't be the old man yelling at the kids to get off your lawn.

There are LAWS and the owners don't know them all. They do NOT own all the way to the wet sand ( really not even close)"...Your response!"please show me your 2016 survey!!" They MUST update yearly!! If they can't furnish updated survey tell them they have no authority over where you are ..If they show you their southern property line survey and your or on it, apologize and move own.......Doubt you will move very often....

These papers and sealed survey are for the sheriff's department eyes first.

TLDR: What's stopping the voters of this jurisdiction from putting a new tax—levied on beachfront property—onto the next ballot?

--

John G's enlightened position—that the rights of private beach property holders should, in all instances, be respected and the letter of law enforced—has me thinking:

In so far as we live in a quasi-democracy, he's correct. While the "customary use" issue could take quite a long time to adjudicate, might a more expedient (and more democratic) solution to the lack of public beach access be to levy a special assessment on all beach-front private property?

Say, $1,000 per square foot of sand, per year, calculated north-to-south from the vegetation line to the historical mean high water mark (which the owner's own surveys, signs, and mercenaries security guards, describe as being several hundred feet into the Gulf) and east-to-west by the property boundaries.

The revenue generated (~$24.3B per year) could then be spent to purchase additional public beach, with a portion allocated to conducting a census of the Blue Mountain Beach Dune Snake.

The assessment would continue until such time as the public's need and desire for beach access is well-met. Should the property owners fail to pay the special assessment, a lien would be filed against the downland portion of the property and said property surrendered and forfeited to the county (and ultimately disposed of into the public trust.)

But that wouldn't be necessary because....

The assessment wouldn't actually cost the property owners anything. Their costs would simply be passed along to the vacation rental customers. While this might result in a slight "uptick" in rental rates, it would at the same time address what John G has quite accurately identified as the very root of the controversy: the calibre of vacation rental customers. As we all know, the less financially endowed are also the most ill-mannered. Special assessment means no more noisy rule-breakers.

It is clear that this assessment represents a win for ALL of South Walton and I'm confident that it will garner the full support and backing of both the public at large and (who having already established themselves as an exceedingly generous group) the beach property owners!

P - Preserve private property owner's rights
I - Improve the calibre of vacation rental customers
S - Secure beach property for public use and conservation
S - Snakes in Dunes!

I love how every argument made on this site for taking the private property of others is based in the theory of entitlement and simple jealously over what another has and another does not.

Blame the property owner for their ability to obtain property that most all desire, yet cannot afford...or were unable to obtain them (your) selves.

It's all the fault of those damn rich beach front owners...

I love how every argument made on this site for taking the private property of others is based in the theory of entitlement and simple jealously over what another has and another does not.

Blame the property owner for their ability to obtain property that most all desire, yet cannot afford...or were unable to obtain them (your) selves.

It's all the fault of those damn rich beach front owners...

Since you are so black and white let me put this in terms you can understand. Humans should have no more right to own beachfront than they have a right to own a sunset.

As someone who supports customary use for Walton County's beaches, I must say that some of the arguments in favor make me very uncomfortable. The dry beach is a piece of property, no different legally from a piece of woodland property, farm property, property containing a restaurant, Walmart or private home. The public is no more entitled to it than it is entitled to use your deck or hunt your woodlands or use any other property UNLESS the public has always had the right to use said property. If the public has exercised such rights to use, with or without the express permission of the owner, then an easement comes into existence. My position is that the beaches have been regularly used by the public for decades and so over time such an easement, or customary use, came into legal existence. Our economy was deliberately based on the public's right to use both the wet and dry portions of the beach and the government, through the TDC, promoted such use that was almost universally recognized. Now times and ownership has changed and people are attempting to change the formula and restrict usage of property that the public has always used. Such a change would have a severely negative impact on our economy and harm thousands of people who work in the tourism industry as well as upland property owners who purchased their property at premium rates based on the right for them and their renters to have access to the beaches. My position is that these new beachfront property owners are the ones who seek to change the status quo and that the government must prevent that in order to protect the rights of the public that have been recognized over a long period of time. Allowing No Trespass signs to be placed and enforced erodes those rights and will destroy them if not halted immediately. The only other solution is for the government to purchase beachfront and make it accessible to the public. That is why I support the purchase of every foot of beachfront that we can buy at reasonable prices. I am not jealous of anyone nor do I want anything for free. I simply want things to continue as they have been for decades and I want to protect our economy.

I love how every argument made on this site for taking the private property of others is based in the theory of entitlement and simple jealously over what another has and another does not.

Blame the property owner for their ability to obtain property that most all desire, yet cannot afford...or were unable to obtain them (your) selves.

It's all the fault of those damn rich beach front owners...

It's not about being able to obtain it ourselves. If your property was built as firmly as your statements on here, it would be easy to spot - it would be the one with a 14' walled compound extending out into the gulf. Every post I can recall reading by you states that people should not even be allowed on your property, even though you've had enough blessings in your life to own beachfront property on one of the most beautiful beaches in the world. That should bring you a sense of gratitude and happiness that you've been so lucky in life.

I certainly can't tell you how to live your life, and with all of the inflammatory statements you light up on here I doubt you're reasonable enough to listen anyway. However, I know that I WILL own beachfront property one day, and when I do I will be happy to share it with those who aren't as fortunate as me - ASSUMING THEY USE IT IN A REASONABLE MANNER. I completely agree with the fact that people should not be on your deck/use your pool/knock on the door and request to use the bathroom/use your crossover for beach access/etc. I even agree that people should not erect tents/multiple umbrellas/carry coolers the size of refrigerators/trample the dunes/bring baby cribs, gas grills, boom boxes, or any other device typically intended for in-home use.

However, I do believe that people should bring a chair, a book, some kids and a blanket and sit down on any piece of the beach south of the dunes and not have homeowners panting, yelling, loading shotguns or calling the police.

Every post I can recall reading by you states that people should not even be allowed on your property, even though you've had enough blessings in your life to own beachfront property on one of the most beautiful beaches in the world. That should bring you a sense of gratitude and happiness that you've been so lucky in life.

Hey wastinaway,
Being able to own beach front property has nothing to do with Luck as you mention in your post. It has to do with working very hard all your life, and being able to enjoy
the end years of your life the way you would like after saving your money and planning. The problem is and will be, too many tourists squeezed into south walton beaches and roadways. The TDC advertised so well it brought everyone and their brother to our beaches. It would not be a problem if we had wide beaches and roads planned to carry the heavy load of vehicles. Because Walton county has never had a plan of any kind except taking in tax dollars, we are now in the middle of a crisis. Beaches along the Atlantic for the most part on the East Coast have much wider beaches and can handle the size of the crowds we experience here. Tourism is making our little piece of paradise bust at the seams. People that own beach front property and decide not to allow people on their property probably have a good reason for doing so based on their past experience and it is only going to get worse.