PCB passes ordinance: $500 fine if you enter Gulf under double red flags.

According to USLA this is the standard

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw1IHHrmHnlaBMxAcGWVE08L&cshid=1566128993214

Not to be critical of the standard but I think this is part of the problem. I'm sure great thought and deliberation brought them to the standard but perhaps the standard should be reviewed.

I'd like to know the ratio of swimmers who drowned in red flag conditions compared to double red flag. Words like "discouraged" and "take great care" are not strong enough. If people are ignoring the language and still drowning there is a problem. They are endangering themselves and others who may drown trying to save them. Entering the water puts them in great peril.

1. 5.2. Red–Highhazard.Roughconditionssuchasstrongsurfand/orcurrentsare present. All swimmers are discouraged from entering the water. Those entering the water should take great care.
   

I can remember when beach flags were different and changes were made to fall in line with a standard. Personally I think having a standard system rather not having one is best. Obviously having double red flags don't keep people out, and closing the water on single reds probably won't stop people from swimming.
I will share a story though to drive home a point. I worked a drowning call many years ago and as we were doing what we were suppose to do we had people walking around us going into the water. I am talking CPR, IVs, Airways and preparing to move this patient from the beach and people are walking around us into the water. If someone who has drowned laying on the beach isn't a deterrent to some folks then flags and tickets probably won't either.

Not to be critical of the standard but I think this is part of the problem. I'm sure great thought and deliberation brought them to the standard but perhaps the standard should be reviewed.

I'd like to know the ratio of swimmers who drowned in red flag conditions compared to double red flag. Words like "discouraged" and "take great care" are not strong enough. If people are ignoring the language and still drowning there is a problem. They are endangering themselves and others who may drown trying to save them. Entering the water puts them in great peril.

1. 5.2. Red–Highhazard.Roughconditionssuchasstrongsurfand/orcurrentsare present. All swimmers are discouraged from entering the water. Those entering the water should take great care.

To a human animal, Red means Stop. Danger.

Double Red means Stop Stop, Danger Danger.

Maybe we need a triple RED.

I'd like to know the ratio of swimmers who drowned in red flag conditions compared to double red flag.

And the number of those who drowned under a YELLOW flag like on July 3rd, 2018?....as in a false sense of security. Then on the flip side, I've seen RED flags fly on many occasions when the surf was not rough...kind of a "wolf wolf" situation. There seems to be a blurry line between YELLOW and RED.

I will admit that when I've seen DOUBLE RED flags flying, they were appropriate for the most part.

Bottom line, one cannot depend on the flag system for safety. To me, the flags are an official suggestion - sometimes right and sometimes wrong. And for a government entity which intends to impose a $500 penalty for flag "violations", they should be very aware that more scrutiny regarding which flags are flying where will be directed at them. Of course they could always err on the cautious side but that will just upset tourists who may not be allowed in the water and create again a wolf wolf situation in which the flags are simply ignored.

To be honest, I'm glad I'm not the one deciding which flag(s) to fly.

Question to anyone who may know: Are ALL the beach flags on any given day the same regardless of location?

The flags posted along our 26 miles
of the beach are the same. The conditions are evaluated at a minimum of twice per day to make the call. The scrutiny these guards go through when the flags/conditions are not to everyone’s liking or schedule is incredible. Not to mention the phone calls to SWFD on why and when certain flags will be flown. I too am glad I don’t make that call but I have full confidence in those that do for us. We are fortunate to have a beach safety program that is recognized throughout the southeast and in Florida as a top flight program.

I miss our green flags

I miss our green flags

Point well made!

Not Green today...

The flag system is too cumbersome and confusing. For starters all we need is one red flag. No swimming.

We need to go back to the old system. Red, Yellow, and Blue.

I think the state wide flag system is the best way to go for consistency across all beaches, parks, and places on the coast of Florida, with and without lifeguards.

Education is key. Every Beach town has an obligation to promote the flag system and overall Beach safety activities. Our SWFD Beach Safety program, lifeguards and other staff are outstanding. This year the lifeguards will serve beyond summer into fall for the first time.

Share SWFD on social media! Their daily posts on surf conditions and beach safety, etc, are great sources of information for the public.

SWFD Beach Safety
The new contract extends the peak summer levels of lifeguard staffing through October 31st (previously, the number of lifeguards on duty was reduced at the end of September) and also includes funding for 8 lifeguard staff to be kept on salary year-round.

Why are surfers exempt?

I am only guessing but I believe it is 1)assumed they are swimmers and 2) they have a flotation device attached to them whereas most people entering the waters on a double red flag day are doing so with no flotation device attached to them and usually have had a few cocktails

The flags posted along our 26 miles of the beach are the same.

I suspected as much but wasn’t sure. Thanks for the info. My reason for inquiring about flag “consistency” in Walton County has to do with what happened on July 3rd, 2018 in Grayton Beach.

Sorry if it appears that I’m overly harping on that event but IMHO there was a total disconnect between the displayed yellow flags of that day and the actual conditions at Grayton Beach.

And here’s the reason:
I recall how rough the surf was that day. And normally I would have expected a red flag and not a yellow flag but will give SWFD the benefit of the doubt. Our beach vendor stated that there were rip tide warnings that day on whatever weather app he uses to help him with weather predictions so that he can determine if he needs to take down the umbrellas because of predicted high winds associated with storms.

But in addition to visible rough surf and the rip tide warnings, my understanding was that the dune lake at Grayton Beach was pouring into the gulf.

Anyone who boats through Destin Pass fully understands how rough the pass can be when the tide is flowing out and the wind is blowing in. It can be like an evil washing machine on steroids.

Again, IMHO, this is exactly why the 11 year old boy got in trouble right there in Grayton Beach in the first place in knee deep water. One, then two adults went after the boy and the first adult did not make it back. He was a 6 foot man in very good physical condition (avid boater, champion Hobie sailor, pickle ball player, etc.). And yet he was overcome by the conditions. The boy was saved by the second man who was just a bystander - BOTH MEN WERE HEROES (no acknowledgement of either by Walton County or the press, BTW).

The point to all the above is that our dune lakes (as we hear over and over) are very unique to Walton County. When there are marginal wind and surf conditions compounded by an outflow, how can the same yellow flag be flying in that vicinity as compared to where there is not an outflow?

That’s why I believe the flag system in Walton County is faulty unless the status of the dune lakes are factored in along with wind and surf conditions at those locations.

FWIW, and for the record, Destin changed their flags from yellow to red that very same afternoon coincidentally around the time the drowning occurred which indicates there was concurrence with my observations. Assuming the same conditions in Walton County, then the flag status of Grayton Beach at the outfall should have been at least a red or even a double red and not a yellow, IMHO, especially if the outfall itself was factored in with the rough surf.

You do seem to believe there is a conspiracy reference July 3rd. Rather than call and ask someone who might be able to alleviate your concern or prove you correct you would prefer to spread your view with nothing more than your perception.

I suspected as much but wasn’t sure. Thanks for the info. My reason for inquiring about flag “consistency” in Walton County has to do with what happened on July 3rd, 2018 in Grayton Beach.

Sorry if it appears that I’m overly harping on that event but IMHO there was a total disconnect between the displayed yellow flags of that day and the actual conditions at Grayton Beach.

And here’s the reason:
I recall how rough the surf was that day. And normally I would have expected a red flag and not a yellow flag but will give SWFD the benefit of the doubt. Our beach vendor stated that there were rip tide warnings that day on whatever weather app he uses to help him with weather predictions so that he can determine if he needs to take down the umbrellas because of predicted high winds associated with storms.

But in addition to visible rough surf and the rip tide warnings, my understanding was that the dune lake at Grayton Beach was pouring into the gulf.

Anyone who boats through Destin Pass fully understands how rough the pass can be when the tide is flowing out and the wind is blowing in. It can be like an evil washing machine on steroids.

Again, IMHO, this is exactly why the 11 year old boy got in trouble right there in Grayton Beach in the first place in knee deep water. One, then two adults went after the boy and the first adult did not make it back. He was a 6 foot man in very good physical condition (avid boater, champion Hobie sailor, pickle ball player, etc.). And yet he was overcome by the conditions. The boy was saved by the second man who was just a bystander - BOTH MEN WERE HEROES (no acknowledgement of either by Walton County or the press, BTW).

The point to all the above is that our dune lakes (as we hear over and over) are very unique to Walton County. When there are marginal wind and surf conditions compounded by an outflow, how can the same yellow flag be flying in that vicinity as compared to where there is not an outflow?

That’s why I believe the flag system in Walton County is faulty unless the status of the dune lakes are factored in along with wind and surf conditions at those locations.

FWIW, and for the record, Destin changed their flags from yellow to red that very same afternoon coincidentally around the time the drowning occurred which indicates there was concurrence with my observations. Assuming the same conditions in Walton County, then the flag status of Grayton Beach at the outfall should have been at least a red or even a double red and not a yellow, IMHO, especially if the outfall itself was factored in with the rough surf.

You do seem to believe there is a conspiracy reference July 3rd. Rather than call and ask someone who might be able to alleviate your concern or prove you correct you would prefer to spread your view with nothing more than your perception.

I suspected as much but wasn’t sure. Thanks for the info. My reason for inquiring about flag “consistency” in Walton County has to do with what happened on July 3rd, 2018 in Grayton Beach.

Sorry if it appears that I’m overly harping on that event but IMHO there was a total disconnect between the displayed yellow flags of that day and the actual conditions at Grayton Beach.

And here’s the reason:
I recall how rough the surf was that day. And normally I would have expected a red flag and not a yellow flag but will give SWFD the benefit of the doubt. Our beach vendor stated that there were rip tide warnings that day on whatever weather app he uses to help him with weather predictions so that he can determine if he needs to take down the umbrellas because of predicted high winds associated with storms.

But in addition to visible rough surf and the rip tide warnings, my understanding was that the dune lake at Grayton Beach was pouring into the gulf.

Anyone who boats through Destin Pass fully understands how rough the pass can be when the tide is flowing out and the wind is blowing in. It can be like an evil washing machine on steroids.

Again, IMHO, this is exactly why the 11 year old boy got in trouble right there in Grayton Beach in the first place in knee deep water. One, then two adults went after the boy and the first adult did not make it back. He was a 6 foot man in very good physical condition (avid boater, champion Hobie sailor, pickle ball player, etc.). And yet he was overcome by the conditions. The boy was saved by the second man who was just a bystander - BOTH MEN WERE HEROES (no acknowledgement of either by Walton County or the press, BTW).

The point to all the above is that our dune lakes (as we hear over and over) are very unique to Walton County. When there are marginal wind and surf conditions compounded by an outflow, how can the same yellow flag be flying in that vicinity as compared to where there is not an outflow?

That’s why I believe the flag system in Walton County is faulty unless the status of the dune lakes are factored in along with wind and surf conditions at those locations.

FWIW, and for the record, Destin changed their flags from yellow to red that very same afternoon coincidentally around the time the drowning occurred which indicates there was concurrence with my observations. Assuming the same conditions in Walton County, then the flag status of Grayton Beach at the outfall should have been at least a red or even a double red and not a yellow, IMHO, especially if the outfall itself was factored in with the rough surf.

You do seem to believe there is a conspiracy reference July 3rd.

Your word(s), not mine. My last post and my associated conclusions that you just quoted were based on fact. Your conclusions are your own.

Do you have any constructive comments on the dune lakes issue?

I just hope my posts lead to some positive changes so that another drowning like this doesn’t occur in similar circumstances at dune lake locations.

Your word(s), not mine. My last post and my associated conclusions that you just quoted were based on fact. Your conclusions are your own.

Do you have any constructive comments on the dune lakes issue?

I just hope my posts lead to some positive changes so that another drowning like this doesn’t occur in similar circumstances at dune lake locations.

Actually your words are
"The conspiracy theorist in me (and it's not just my opinion BTW as one can probably guess), believe the threat of losing an almighty tourist dollar (with bad news such as this) trumps the public's need to be informed."

Your word(s), not mine. My last post and my associated conclusions that you just quoted were based on fact. Your conclusions are your own.

Do you have any constructive comments on the dune lakes issue?

I just hope my posts lead to some positive changes so that another drowning like this doesn’t occur in similar circumstances at dune lake locations.

Bob, you’re exactly right regarding post #21. I admitted to be a conspiracy theorist regarding the downplaying of the event. And it’s hard for any reasonable person not to be. I believe there have been other times.

I’ll remind you again how open Destin is with publishing the details of all drownings per my previous reference and that I have not seen the equivalent here in Walton County. Please correct me if I am wrong.

However the post you just referenced was #38 when you said, “You do seem to believe there is a conspiracy reference July 3rd. ”. IMHO, my post #38 was factual, constructive and clearly addressed the unique issue of dune lakes spilling into the Gulf and the flag system inadequacy of addressing this.

You are 17 posts and 5 days past my own admission of being a “conspiracy theorist” though you probably picked up on my feelings a year ago.

I did say “...BOTH MEN WERE HEROES (no acknowledgement of either by Walton County or the press, BTW)” in post #38. And that was fact. That comment was probably fueled somewhat by emotion since I had the pleasure and honor of being acquainted with both. And using the word HEROES hopefully accentuated the seriousness of what happened.

Bob, I’m still hoping something good can come out of all this....that maybe local flags at dune lakes during an outflow condition might need more scrutiny than just one general flag across 26 miles of beach. Or maybe that lifeguards need to be positioned closer to the outfalls in this situation. Or maybe an extra lifeguard is warranted in those situations at larger outfalls when the surf gets rough. We all know how kids love to play in those “rivers”.

Hopefully you and others can throw in some ideas. But first we have to acknowledge the uniqueness of dune lake locations on the beach.

Yes, dune lakes are a concern especially when there is a breakout - either natural or man-made. The call for people to exercise caution when they do breakout and not trusting the outflow -like the flags are many times unheeded.

Unfortunately when a tragedy occurs like this -that you seem to be intimately aware of (condolences to you and your acquaintance) there are always questions on the how’s and the whys.

SWFD post safety messages daily about our beaches on rip CURRENTS , severe weather, dune outfalls, etc. They produce media releases on issue like the one you speak of. Whether the media decides to post or print is their decision. I do know the print media contacts them daily so you decide.

I appreciate your concern and many of your thoughts regarding beach flags, where lifeguards are the constant messaging needed to save lives on our beaches. It literally is a full time effort and as I understand it, SWFD will now have a presence on our beaches year round.

I would ask you to please don’t underestimate what these men and woman do- regardless if you think they are kids and confused by your questions and know they work, train and are committed to put themselves in harms way if warranted. There is a lot more than observing what we call “rough surf” to evaluating and posting beach flags. Holes, soft spots and drop offs are just a few.

Not sure if I will reply anymore to this thread as I can’t keep up with keeping count of thread 38, 17, etc.

I would respectfully leave you with a request for you to contact SWFD, speak with the beach safety director, Fire Chief or both and seek to get a first hand response to your questions and suspicions. To not do so makes this just another thread postulating on what someone thinks is reality or fact and somewhat dilutes your passion on the subject. You stated you expect and “demand” more so why not find out?