By Jon Markam
Satyajit Das is laughing. It appears I have said something very funny, but I have no idea what it was. My only clue is that the laugh sounds somewhat pitying. One of the world's leading experts on credit derivatives, Das is the author of a 4,200-page reference work on the subject, among a half-dozen other tomes. As a developer and marketer of the exotic instruments himself over the past 30 years. He seemed like the ideal industry insider to help us get to the bottom of the recent debt crunch -- and I expected him to defend and explain the practice.
I started by asking the Calcutta-born Australian whether the credit crisis was in what Americans would call the "third inning." This was pretty amusing, it seemed, judging from the laughter. So I tried again. "Second inning?" More laughter. "First?" Still too optimistic. Das, who knows as much about global money flows as anyone in the world, stopped chuckling long enough to suggest that we're actually still in the middle of the national anthem before a game destined to go into extra innings. And it won't end well for the global economy.
An epic bear market
Das is pretty droll for a math whiz, but his message is dead serious. He thinks we're on the verge of a bear market of epic proportions. The cause: Massive levels of debt underlying the world economy system are about to unwind in a profound and persistent way.
He's not sure if it will play out like the 13-year decline of 90% in Japan from 1990 to 2003 that followed the bursting of a credit bubble there, or like the 15-year flat spot in the U.S. market from 1960 to 1975. But either way, he foresees hard times as an optimistic era of too much liquidity, too much leverage and too much financial engineering slowly and inevitably deflates.
Like an ex-mobster turning state's witness, Das has turned his back on his old pals in the derivatives biz to warn anyone who will listen -- mostly banks and hedge funds that pay him consulting fees -- that the jig is up.
Rather than joining the crowd that blames the mess on American slobs who took on more mortgage debt than they could afford and have endangered the world by stiffing lenders, he points a finger at three parties: regulators who stood by as U.S. banks developed ingenious but dangerous ways of shifting trillions of dollars of credit risk off their balance sheets and into the hands of unsophisticated foreign investors; hedge and pension fund managers who gorged on high-yield debt instruments they didn't understand; and financial engineers who built towers of "securitized" debt with math models that were fundamentally flawed.
Investors are abuzz over the Fed?s interest-rate decision, but the Federal Reserve can?t fix everything, cautions MSN Money?s Jim Jubak. Lower interest rates alone won?t boost confidence in the debt market. "Defaulting middle-class U.S. homeowners are blamed, but they are merely a pawn in the game," he says. "Those loans were invented so that hedge funds would have high-yield debt to buy."
The liquidity factory
Das' view sounds cynical, but it makes sense if you stop thinking about mortgages as a way for people to finance houses and think about them instead as a way for lenders to generate cash flow and create collateral during an era of a flat interest-rate curve.Although subprime U.S. loans seem like small change in the context of the multitrillion-dollar debt market, it turns out these high-yield instruments were an important part of the machine that Das calls the global "liquidity factory." Just like a small amount of gasoline can power an entire truck given the right combination of spark plugs, pistons and transmission, subprime loans became the fuel that underlays derivative securities many, many times their size.
Here's how it worked: In olden days, like 10 years ago, banks wrote and funded their own loans. In the new game, Das points out, banks "originate" loans, "warehouse" them on their balance sheet for a brief time, then "distribute" them to investors by packaging them into derivatives called collateralized debt obligations, or CDOs, and similar instruments. In this scheme, banks don't need to tie up as much capital, so they can put more money out on loan. The more loans that were sold, the more they could use as collateral for more loans, so credit standards were lowered to get more paper out the door -- a task that was accelerated in recent years via fly-by-night brokers now accused of predatory lending practices. Buyers of these credit risks in CDO form were insurance companies, pension funds and hedge-fund managers from Bonn to Beijing. Because money was readily available at low interest rates in Japan and the United States, these managers leveraged up their bets by buying the CDOs with borrowed funds.
So if you follow the bouncing ball, borrowed money bought borrowed money. And then because they had the blessing of credit-ratings agencies relying on mathematical models suggesting that they would rarely default, these CDOs were in turn used as collateral to do more borrowing.
In this way, Das points out, credit risk moved from banks, where it was regulated and observable, to places where it was less regulated and difficult to identify.
Turning $1 into $20
The liquidity factory was self-perpetuating and seemingly unstoppable. As assets bought with borrowed money rose in value, players could borrow more money against them, and it thus seemed logical to borrow even more to increase returns. Bankers figured out how to strip money out of existing assets to do so, much as a homeowner might strip equity from his house to buy another house. These triple-borrowed assets were then in turn increasingly used as collateral for commercial paper -- the short-term borrowings of banks and corporations -- which was purchased by supposedly low-risk money market funds.
According to Das' figures, up to 53% of the $2.2 trillion commercial paper in the U.S. market is now asset-backed, with about 50% of that in mortgages.
When you add it all up, according to Das' research, a single dollar of "real" capital supports $20 to $30 of loans. This spiral of borrowing on an increasingly thin base of real assets, writ large and in nearly infinite variety, ultimately created a world in which derivatives outstanding earlier this year stood at $485 trillion -- or eight times total global gross domestic product of $60 trillion. Without a central governmental authority keeping tabs on these cross-border flows and ensuring a standard of record-keeping and quality, investors increasingly didn't know what they were buying or what any given security was really worth.
A painful unwinding
Now here is where the U.S. mortgage holder shows up again. As subprime loan default rates doubled, in contravention of what the models forecast, the CDOs those mortgages backed began to collapse. Because they were so hard to value, banks and funds started looking at all CDOs and other paper backed by mortgages with suspicion, and refused to accept them as collateral for the sort of short-term borrowing that underpins today's money markets. Through late last month, according to Das, as much as $300 billion in leveraged finance loans had been "orphaned," which means that they can't be sold off or used as collateral.
Investors are abuzz over the Fed?s interest-rate decision, but the Federal Reserve can?t fix everything, cautions MSN Money?s Jim Jubak. Lower interest rates alone won?t boost confidence in the debt market.
One of the wonders of leverage is that it amplifies losses on the way down just as it amplifies gains on the way up. The more an asset that is bought with borrowed money falls in value, the more you have to sell other stuff to fulfill the loan-to-value covenants. It's a vicious cycle. In this context, banks' objective was to prevent customers from selling their derivates at a discount because they would then have to mark down the value of all the other assets in the debt chain, an event that would lead to the need to make margin calls on customers already thin on cash.
Now it may seem hard to believe, but much of the past few years' advance in the stock market was underwritten by CDO-type instruments which go under the heading of "structured finance." I'm talking about private-equity takeovers, leveraged buyouts and corporate stock buybacks -- the works.
So to the extent that the structured finance market is coming undone, not only will those pillars of strength for equities be knocked away, but many recent deals that were predicated on the easy availability of money will likely also go bust, Das says. That is why he considers the current market volatility much more profound than a simple "correction" in prices. He sees it as a gigantic liquidity bubble unwinding -- a process that can take a long, long time.
While you might think that the U.S. Federal Reserve can help prevent disaster by lowering interest rates dramatically, as they did Wednesday, the evidence is not at all clear. The problem, after all, is not the amount of money in the system but the fact that buyers are in the process of rejecting the entire new risk-transfer model and its associated leverage and counterparty risks. Lower rates will not help that. "At best," Das says, "they help smooth the transition."
The fine print
Das notes that Japan in the 1990s lowered interest rates to zero and the country still suffered through a prolonged recession. His timetable for the start of the next serious phase of the unwinding is later this year or early 2008. . . . Das' most readable book for laypeople is "Traders, Guns & Money," an amusing expos? of high finance, published last year. Das occasionally writes a blog at his publisher's Web site. Also available are a boxed set of his reference books on derivatives and his book specifically on CDOs. . . . Perhaps the oddest line on the subject by a world leader was uttered by Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, the president of Brazil. Asked if he was worried about the effects of the credit crunch in his country, he dismissively called it "an eminently American crisis" caused by people trying to make a lot of "third-class money." . . . CDOs were first widely used back in the late 1980s by Drexel Burnham Lambert junk-bond king Michael Milken to sell off damaged and previously unsellable debt in a way that was more palatable to customers.
Replies
161Beach Fanatic
"...Are we headed for an epic bear market?...."
Anyone still looking for an answer to this question?
Capricious
"...You're thinking of this place all wrong. As if I had the money back in a safe. The money's not here. Your money's in Joe's house...right next to yours. And in the Kennedy house, and Mrs. Macklin's house, and a hundred others. Why, you're lending them the money to build, and then, they're going to pay it back to you as best they can. Now what are you going to do? Foreclose on them?..."
(George Bailey)
Anyone still looking for an answer to this question?
Capricious
"...You're thinking of this place all wrong. As if I had the money back in a safe. The money's not here. Your money's in Joe's house...right next to yours. And in the Kennedy house, and Mrs. Macklin's house, and a hundred others. Why, you're lending them the money to build, and then, they're going to pay it back to you as best they can. Now what are you going to do? Foreclose on them?..."
(George Bailey)
SoWal Insider
"...Are we headed for an epic bear market?...."
Anyone still looking for an answer to this question?
We might even close up for the day, what a weird market. I thought today was the day things really went south, but it appears the bears got cold feet.
Beach Fanatic
We might even close up for the day, what a weird market. I thought today was the day things really went south, but it appears the bears got cold feet.Capricious doesn't do so well on the day to day or intraday market timing, this isn't the first time. And saying things are crappy in general takes no special perspicacity.

Edited
Beach Fanatic
Capricious doesn't do so well on the day to day or intraday market timing, this isn't the first time. And saying things are crappy in general takes no special perspicacity.
I have not said what I have been doing, so you really would
not know.
But I'm in a darn good mood today so it would be safe to
assume that things are going as I thought they would.
On the other hand, you seem to be having a bad day...?
Capricious
"...You once called me "a warped, frustrated, old man!" What are you but a warped, frustrated young man? A miserable little clerk crawling in here on your hands and knees and begging for help. No securities, no stocks, no bonds. Nothin' but a miserable little $500 equity in a life insurance policy...."
(Henry F. Potter)
Beach Fanatic
I have not said what I have been doing, so you really would
not know.
But I'm in a darn good mood today so it would be safe to
assume that things are going as I thought they would.
On the other hand, you seem to be having a bad day...?
Capricious
"...You once called me "a warped, frustrated, old man!" What are you but a warped, frustrated young man? A miserable little clerk crawling in here on your hands and knees and begging for help. No securities, no stocks, no bonds. Nothin' but a miserable little $500 equity in a life insurance policy..
(Henry F. Potter)
Everyday you and I get a chance to exchange pleasantries is a good day for me. I am glad you are having one as well.
Beach Fanatic
Two words:
Buy REIT.
You mean short REITs? Commercial is the next hat to drop.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Originally Posted by TheSheep
Two words:
Buy REIT.
REIT properties are often purchased as income stable properties and have longevity in track record. They are also typically diversified i.e. office properties spread geometrigraphically, ya' know, um, like, all over the place.
Each REIT is individualistically individual
but they almost always outperform the individual, collected investments in investor properties when the country has been Bushsodomized.
NEWS FLASH !!
Supporting and compelling evidences, Dear Pirate, of your claims and mine.
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/10/06/ap5513222.html
Immoral of the Story
Buy Right REIT who ain't doin' nuthin' except sitting on REIT hoofs.
Two words:
Buy REIT.
You mean short REITs? Commercial is the next hat to drop.As always, depends on the REIT. Historicallically, REIT's asset value eithr do not depreciate or do not depreciate at any relative rate to real estate market itself. In a period of economic fukkupedness REITs tend to be more stable take an office building oriented REIT. Even the totallyfukkedupedness corporation will pay rent as priority.
REIT properties are often purchased as income stable properties and have longevity in track record. They are also typically diversified i.e. office properties spread geometrigraphically, ya' know, um, like, all over the place.
Each REIT is individualistically individual
but they almost always outperform the individual, collected investments in investor properties when the country has been Bushsodomized.NEWS FLASH !!
Supporting and compelling evidences, Dear Pirate, of your claims and mine.
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/10/06/ap5513222.html
Immoral of the Story
Buy Right REIT who ain't doin' nuthin' except sitting on REIT hoofs.
Edited
Beach Lover
Instead of addressing the problem we could just come up with a rainbow of monetary terror levels.
HAH!! That made my afternoon SWGB. TX....
Beach Fanatic
"The S&P 500 extended its 2008 decline to 32 percent, while the Dow's yearly loss widened to 29 percent in the market's worst yearly retreat since 1937..."
http://tinyurl.com/523db3
Ladies & gentlemen, you are witnessing history, a wholesale
destruction of wealth as few alive today have ever seen.
Capricious
http://tinyurl.com/523db3
Ladies & gentlemen, you are witnessing history, a wholesale
destruction of wealth as few alive today have ever seen.
Capricious
Beach Fanatic
Instead of addressing the problem we could just come up with a rainbow of monetary terror levels.
HAH!! That made my afternoon SWGB. TX....
Maybe we can use this as a guide:

SoWal Insider
Maybe we can use this as a guide:

.
Beach Fanatic
Originally Posted by TheSheep![]()
Two words:
Buy REIT.
As always, depends on the REIT. Historicallically, REIT's asset value eithr do not depreciate or do not depreciate at any relative rate to real estate market itself. In a period of economic fukkupedness REITs tend to be more stable take an office building oriented REIT. Even the totallyfukkedupedness corporation will pay rent as priority.
REIT properties are often purchased as income stable properties and have longevity in track record. They are also typically diversified i.e. office properties spread geometrigraphically, ya' know, um, like, all over the place.![]()
Each REIT is individualistically individualbut they almost always outperform the individual, collected investments in investor properties when the country has been Bushsodomized.
NEWS FLASH !!
Supporting and compelling evidences, Dear Pirate, of your claims and mine.
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/10/06/ap5513222.html
Immoral of the Story
Buy Right REIT who ain't doin' nuthin' except sitting on REIT hoofs.
I have to admit I have no idea what the hell you mean but it is entertaining.

Beach Fanatic
My I.R.A now looks like a chitlin with the shiot slung out of it. It couldn't provide lunch money for an anorexic mummy.
SoWal Insider
My I.R.A now looks like a chitlin with the shiot slung out of it. It couldn't provide lunch money for an anorexic mummy.
I'm down too, but I'm in long term, and swapped out to high yield securities, so when it comes back up, I've got my value back plus the dividend and interest return. I wouldn't worry about value if you're in for the long haul.
Beach Fanatic
I have to admit I have no idea what the hell you mean but it is entertaining.Buy the REIT stock that produces income from established properties and not from REITs who are highly leveraged. Or follow the yellow bricked URL.

http://tinyurl.com/4ae45x
Meow
I think you mean...Bare market.
Beach Lover
Epic Bear
It's amazing that we never seem to learn. I remember when people were joyfully piling their life savings into Double Click, Infospace, Pets.com, and any other hairbrained dotcom that was hatched. After that crash, it seems that we would have understood where manias lead.
Not too many years later, I remember people who were quitting their jobs to become real estate investors, not paying attention to the fact that we had more $million condos and homes than millionaires who wanted them. I bought a lot, and sold it a year to the day later and it nearly trippled. Unfortunately, I used the proceeds to by a lot that is pretty close to worthless, but it was "the house's" money that I was playing with. So, I ended up back where I started, which I guess is better than many.
I have learned that when these inevitable busts occur, I have to economize even more, which is hard considering that I don't spend much, try to squeeze out more money to invest rather than giving up, and remind myself that money, although important cannot be the source of happiness. It sometimes goes away.
Seriously, good luck to all of you in weathering this. I don't find any joy in watching others suffer, with the exception of thieving politicians and executives who go to jail, however rarely it occurs.
It's amazing that we never seem to learn. I remember when people were joyfully piling their life savings into Double Click, Infospace, Pets.com, and any other hairbrained dotcom that was hatched. After that crash, it seems that we would have understood where manias lead.
Not too many years later, I remember people who were quitting their jobs to become real estate investors, not paying attention to the fact that we had more $million condos and homes than millionaires who wanted them. I bought a lot, and sold it a year to the day later and it nearly trippled. Unfortunately, I used the proceeds to by a lot that is pretty close to worthless, but it was "the house's" money that I was playing with. So, I ended up back where I started, which I guess is better than many.
I have learned that when these inevitable busts occur, I have to economize even more, which is hard considering that I don't spend much, try to squeeze out more money to invest rather than giving up, and remind myself that money, although important cannot be the source of happiness. It sometimes goes away.
Seriously, good luck to all of you in weathering this. I don't find any joy in watching others suffer, with the exception of thieving politicians and executives who go to jail, however rarely it occurs.
Beach Fanatic
It's amazing that we never seem to learn. I remember when people were joyfully piling their life savings into Double Click, Infospace, Pets.com, and any other hairbrained dotcom that was hatched. After that crash, it seems that we would have understood where manias lead.
Not too many years later, I remember people who were quitting their jobs to become real estate investors, not paying attention to the fact that we had more $million condos and homes than millionaires who wanted them. I bought a lot, and sold it a year to the day later and it nearly trippled. Unfortunately, I used the proceeds to by a lot that is pretty close to worthless, but it was "the house's" money that I was playing with. So, I ended up back where I started, which I guess is better than many.
I have learned that when these inevitable busts occur, I have to economize even more, which is hard considering that I don't spend much, try to squeeze out more money to invest rather than giving up, and remind myself that money, although important cannot be the source of happiness. It sometimes goes away.
Seriously, good luck to all of you in weathering this. I don't find any joy in watching others suffer, with the exception of thieving politicians and executives who go to jail, however rarely it occurs.
Well said Mr. Bobskunk.
Beach Fanatic
I'm enjoying life. My thing is, I like explanations as to 'why' things happened and projections on the depth of the current situation, but what I most want is a good solid explanation on what I can do to take advantage of this current situation- take positive action.
BTW, I have an article out in the Emerald Coast magazine in this October issue. It's about Fatherhood and is in the Humor Me section. You can see it online as well.
I miss you guys. I'm still working 7 days a week 7 to 7. And the money is GOOD
BTW, I have an article out in the Emerald Coast magazine in this October issue. It's about Fatherhood and is in the Humor Me section. You can see it online as well.
I miss you guys. I'm still working 7 days a week 7 to 7. And the money is GOOD
SoWal Insider
I'm enjoying life. My thing is, I like explanations as to 'why' things happened and projections on the depth of the current situation, but what I most want is a good solid explanation on what I can do to take advantage of this current situation- take positive action.
...Torch and Pitchfork Futures.
.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Well said Mr. Bobskunk.
Ironic to the max
Capricious
Beach Fanatic
It's amazing that we never seem to learn. I remember when people were joyfully piling their life savings into Double Click, Infospace, Pets.com, and any other hairbrained dotcom that was hatched. After that crash, it seems that we would have understood where manias lead.
Not too many years later, I remember people who were quitting their jobs to become real estate investors, not paying attention to the fact that we had more $million condos and homes than millionaires who wanted them. I bought a lot, and sold it a year to the day later and it nearly trippled. Unfortunately, I used the proceeds to by a lot that is pretty close to worthless, but it was "the house's" money that I was playing with. So, I ended up back where I started, which I guess is better than many.
I have learned that when these inevitable busts occur, I have to economize even more, which is hard considering that I don't spend much, try to squeeze out more money to invest rather than giving up, and remind myself that money, although important cannot be the source of happiness. It sometimes goes away.
Seriously, good luck to all of you in weathering this. I don't find any joy in watching others suffer, with the exception of thieving politicians and executives who go to jail, however rarely it occurs.
You forgot the day traders.
A good portion (not all) of those who are "suffering" now
lived pretty high for a while, so it all balances out in the end.
Actually, if one can live high on borrowed money and then "walk"
away from one's debts, as many are inclined to do citing
"victimization" by "unscrupulous lenders," then have they
really suffered?
Or are those of us that never over-leveraged really the ones
that suffer, because it is us who pick-up the pieces:
http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/article/moneyhappy/113568
But it is a given that we (collective) never learn from history and
therefore keep repeating the same mistakes over and over.
Capricious
"Repeat as necessary"
(shampoo bottle)
"repeat as necessary"
(shampoo bottle)
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Ironic to the max
Capricious
No, ironic would be if you agreed with him. We all know you love to watch people lose their homes as previously stated.
Beach Fanatic
You forgot the day traders.
A good portion (not all) of those who are "suffering" now
lived pretty high for a while, so it all balances out in the end.
Actually, if one can live high on borrowed money and then "walk"
away from one's debts, as many are inclined to do citing
"victimization" by "unscrupulous lenders," then have they
really suffered?
Or are those of us that never over-leveraged really the ones
that suffer, because it is us who pick-up the pieces:
http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/article/moneyhappy/113568
But it is a given that we (collective) never learn from history and
therefore keep repeating the same mistakes over and over.
What did daytraders do?
SoWal ExpertAuthor
It is rather satisfying to see those who were "living large" while I did without and planned for the future get their comeuppance.
Too bad they have to drag the economy down with them!
Too bad they have to drag the economy down with them!
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