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Are we headed for an epic bear market?

scooterbug44 avatar
SoWal Expert
33,676 views
By Jon Markam

Satyajit Das is laughing. It appears I have said something very funny, but I have no idea what it was. My only clue is that the laugh sounds somewhat pitying. One of the world's leading experts on credit derivatives, Das is the author of a 4,200-page reference work on the subject, among a half-dozen other tomes. As a developer and marketer of the exotic instruments himself over the past 30 years. He seemed like the ideal industry insider to help us get to the bottom of the recent debt crunch -- and I expected him to defend and explain the practice.
I started by asking the Calcutta-born Australian whether the credit crisis was in what Americans would call the "third inning." This was pretty amusing, it seemed, judging from the laughter. So I tried again. "Second inning?" More laughter. "First?" Still too optimistic. Das, who knows as much about global money flows as anyone in the world, stopped chuckling long enough to suggest that we're actually still in the middle of the national anthem before a game destined to go into extra innings. And it won't end well for the global economy.

An epic bear market
Das is pretty droll for a math whiz, but his message is dead serious. He thinks we're on the verge of a bear market of epic proportions. The cause: Massive levels of debt underlying the world economy system are about to unwind in a profound and persistent way.

He's not sure if it will play out like the 13-year decline of 90% in Japan from 1990 to 2003 that followed the bursting of a credit bubble there, or like the 15-year flat spot in the U.S. market from 1960 to 1975. But either way, he foresees hard times as an optimistic era of too much liquidity, too much leverage and too much financial engineering slowly and inevitably deflates.
Like an ex-mobster turning state's witness, Das has turned his back on his old pals in the derivatives biz to warn anyone who will listen -- mostly banks and hedge funds that pay him consulting fees -- that the jig is up.
Rather than joining the crowd that blames the mess on American slobs who took on more mortgage debt than they could afford and have endangered the world by stiffing lenders, he points a finger at three parties: regulators who stood by as U.S. banks developed ingenious but dangerous ways of shifting trillions of dollars of credit risk off their balance sheets and into the hands of unsophisticated foreign investors; hedge and pension fund managers who gorged on high-yield debt instruments they didn't understand; and financial engineers who built towers of "securitized" debt with math models that were fundamentally flawed.

Investors are abuzz over the Fed?s interest-rate decision, but the Federal Reserve can?t fix everything, cautions MSN Money?s Jim Jubak. Lower interest rates alone won?t boost confidence in the debt market. "Defaulting middle-class U.S. homeowners are blamed, but they are merely a pawn in the game," he says. "Those loans were invented so that hedge funds would have high-yield debt to buy."

The liquidity factory
Das' view sounds cynical, but it makes sense if you stop thinking about mortgages as a way for people to finance houses and think about them instead as a way for lenders to generate cash flow and create collateral during an era of a flat interest-rate curve.Although subprime U.S. loans seem like small change in the context of the multitrillion-dollar debt market, it turns out these high-yield instruments were an important part of the machine that Das calls the global "liquidity factory." Just like a small amount of gasoline can power an entire truck given the right combination of spark plugs, pistons and transmission, subprime loans became the fuel that underlays derivative securities many, many times their size.

Here's how it worked: In olden days, like 10 years ago, banks wrote and funded their own loans. In the new game, Das points out, banks "originate" loans, "warehouse" them on their balance sheet for a brief time, then "distribute" them to investors by packaging them into derivatives called collateralized debt obligations, or CDOs, and similar instruments. In this scheme, banks don't need to tie up as much capital, so they can put more money out on loan. The more loans that were sold, the more they could use as collateral for more loans, so credit standards were lowered to get more paper out the door -- a task that was accelerated in recent years via fly-by-night brokers now accused of predatory lending practices. Buyers of these credit risks in CDO form were insurance companies, pension funds and hedge-fund managers from Bonn to Beijing. Because money was readily available at low interest rates in Japan and the United States, these managers leveraged up their bets by buying the CDOs with borrowed funds.

So if you follow the bouncing ball, borrowed money bought borrowed money. And then because they had the blessing of credit-ratings agencies relying on mathematical models suggesting that they would rarely default, these CDOs were in turn used as collateral to do more borrowing.
In this way, Das points out, credit risk moved from banks, where it was regulated and observable, to places where it was less regulated and difficult to identify.

Turning $1 into $20
The liquidity factory was self-perpetuating and seemingly unstoppable. As assets bought with borrowed money rose in value, players could borrow more money against them, and it thus seemed logical to borrow even more to increase returns. Bankers figured out how to strip money out of existing assets to do so, much as a homeowner might strip equity from his house to buy another house. These triple-borrowed assets were then in turn increasingly used as collateral for commercial paper -- the short-term borrowings of banks and corporations -- which was purchased by supposedly low-risk money market funds.
According to Das' figures, up to 53% of the $2.2 trillion commercial paper in the U.S. market is now asset-backed, with about 50% of that in mortgages.
When you add it all up, according to Das' research, a single dollar of "real" capital supports $20 to $30 of loans. This spiral of borrowing on an increasingly thin base of real assets, writ large and in nearly infinite variety, ultimately created a world in which derivatives outstanding earlier this year stood at $485 trillion -- or eight times total global gross domestic product of $60 trillion. Without a central governmental authority keeping tabs on these cross-border flows and ensuring a standard of record-keeping and quality, investors increasingly didn't know what they were buying or what any given security was really worth.

A painful unwinding
Now here is where the U.S. mortgage holder shows up again. As subprime loan default rates doubled, in contravention of what the models forecast, the CDOs those mortgages backed began to collapse. Because they were so hard to value, banks and funds started looking at all CDOs and other paper backed by mortgages with suspicion, and refused to accept them as collateral for the sort of short-term borrowing that underpins today's money markets. Through late last month, according to Das, as much as $300 billion in leveraged finance loans had been "orphaned," which means that they can't be sold off or used as collateral.

Investors are abuzz over the Fed?s interest-rate decision, but the Federal Reserve can?t fix everything, cautions MSN Money?s Jim Jubak. Lower interest rates alone won?t boost confidence in the debt market.

One of the wonders of leverage is that it amplifies losses on the way down just as it amplifies gains on the way up. The more an asset that is bought with borrowed money falls in value, the more you have to sell other stuff to fulfill the loan-to-value covenants. It's a vicious cycle. In this context, banks' objective was to prevent customers from selling their derivates at a discount because they would then have to mark down the value of all the other assets in the debt chain, an event that would lead to the need to make margin calls on customers already thin on cash.

Now it may seem hard to believe, but much of the past few years' advance in the stock market was underwritten by CDO-type instruments which go under the heading of "structured finance." I'm talking about private-equity takeovers, leveraged buyouts and corporate stock buybacks -- the works.
So to the extent that the structured finance market is coming undone, not only will those pillars of strength for equities be knocked away, but many recent deals that were predicated on the easy availability of money will likely also go bust, Das says. That is why he considers the current market volatility much more profound than a simple "correction" in prices. He sees it as a gigantic liquidity bubble unwinding -- a process that can take a long, long time.

While you might think that the U.S. Federal Reserve can help prevent disaster by lowering interest rates dramatically, as they did Wednesday, the evidence is not at all clear. The problem, after all, is not the amount of money in the system but the fact that buyers are in the process of rejecting the entire new risk-transfer model and its associated leverage and counterparty risks. Lower rates will not help that. "At best," Das says, "they help smooth the transition."

The fine print
Das notes that Japan in the 1990s lowered interest rates to zero and the country still suffered through a prolonged recession. His timetable for the start of the next serious phase of the unwinding is later this year or early 2008. . . . Das' most readable book for laypeople is "Traders, Guns & Money," an amusing expos? of high finance, published last year. Das occasionally writes a blog at his publisher's Web site. Also available are a boxed set of his reference books on derivatives and his book specifically on CDOs. . . . Perhaps the oddest line on the subject by a world leader was uttered by Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, the president of Brazil. Asked if he was worried about the effects of the credit crunch in his country, he dismissively called it "an eminently American crisis" caused by people trying to make a lot of "third-class money." . . . CDOs were first widely used back in the late 1980s by Drexel Burnham Lambert junk-bond king Michael Milken to sell off damaged and previously unsellable debt in a way that was more palatable to customers.

Replies

161
AAbsolute avatar
Banned
#102
Goofer44,

You know I am somewhat of an apprentice of yours. Can I get a little credit for my XOM pick from last Friday?

XOM 10/10 to 10/14 Market open up 20%.

Did everybody get their stop placed in time? 2 bucks back from the session high.
AAbsolute avatar
Banned
#103
The Government bailout just hurt us again

Once again, liberal Government policy has hurt those it was intended to help. The government is now guaranteeing certain business debt. What does this mean? An investor looking to buy government secured debt doesn't need to buy government bonds and Fannie/Freddie paper. They can buy corporate debt guaranteed by the US Govt. This paper pays higher interest than conforming loans.

Result: Conforming home loans rates will increase to average American homeowners.

The Constitution of the US charges the government with certain responsibiliies and charges American citizens with certain responsibilities. This move is a liberal move away from strict construction and puts another nail in the coffin. The US should learn to accept consequences instead of diluting the Constitution.
TheSheep avatar
Beach Fanatic
#104
Once again, liberal Government policy has hurt those it was intended to help. The government is now guaranteeing certain business debt. What does this mean? An investor looking to buy government secured debt doesn't need to buy government bonds and Fannie/Freddie paper. They can buy corporate debt guaranteed by the US Govt. This paper pays higher interest than conforming loans.
My, one is on a ramble today, eh?:blink: Why is ths a "liberal" governmental action when it was pioneered by a GOP regime?:idontno:
Result: Conforming home loans rates will increase to average American homeowners.
The light will turn red. Both were going to happen regardless.:D
The Constitution of the US charges the government with certain responsibiliies and charges American citizens with certain responsibilities. This move is a liberal move away from strict construction and puts another nail in the coffin.
Who died?:idontno:
The US should learn to accept consequences instead of diluting the Constitution.
Young man, the Constitution was deemed irrelevant a long time ago, do you not understand that we are under terrorist attack?

Edited

AAbsolute avatar
Banned
#105
My, one is on a ramble today, eh?:blink: Why is ths a "liberal" governmental action when it was pioneered by a GOP regime?:idontno:The light will turn red. Both were going to happen regardless.:DWho died?:idontno:Young man, the Constitution was deemed irrelevant a long time ago, do you not understand that we are under terrorist attack?

GOP or Democrat, there's very little substantial difference. Now you've got me wondering, did Osama kill Harry Browne?

I knew you could set me off in a new direction. Thanks for the creative thinking. You may not know how prophetic you really are, but I do. :wave:
Miss Kitty avatar
Meow
#106
GOP or Democrat, there's very little substantial difference. Now you've got me wondering, did Osama kill Harry Browne?

I knew you could set me off in a new direction. Thanks for the creative thinking. You may not know how prophetic you really are, but I do. :wave:

It makes my heart happy that TheSheep has finally found a fan! :clap:

I also like it when TheSheep speaks in English instead of barnyard. :wave:
AAbsolute avatar
Banned
#107
It makes my heart happy that TheSheep has finally found a fan! :clap:

I also like it when TheSheep speaks in English instead of barnyard. :wave:

It's not always popular to find the positives.


I didn't even know that Harry Browne had died until I thought about what the Sheep was saying. If you haven't checked out Harry, a pioneering Libertarian, you might find it an interesting bio. Now if I can get Judge Wells to give me back my arms I might be able to take out Osama.
Miss Kitty avatar
Meow
#108
Back on topic....

Investment tips for 2008 & 2009




With all the turmoil in the market today and the collapse of Lehman Bros and Acquisition of Merrill Lynch by Bank of America this might be some good advice. For all of you with any money left, be aware of the next expected mergers so that you can get in on the ground floor and make some BIG bucks.

Watch for these consolidations in later this year:

1.) Hale Business Systems, Mary Kay Cosmetics, Fuller Brush, and W R. Grace Co. Will merge and become:
Hale, Mary, Fuller, Grace.

2.) Polygram Records, Warner Bros., and Zesta Crackers join forces and become:
Poly, Warner, Cracker.

3.) 3M will merge with Goodyear and become:
MMMGood.

4. Zippo Manufacturing, Audi Motors, Dofasco, and Dakota Mining will merge and become:
ZipAudiDoDa .

5. FedEx is expected to join its competitor, UPS, and become:
FedUP.

6. Fairchild Electronics and Honeywell Computers will become:
Fairwell Honeychild.

7. Grey Poupon and Docker Pants are expected to become:
PouponPants.

8. Knotts Berry Farm and the National Organization of Women will become:
Knott NOW!

9. Victoria 's Secret and Smith &Wesson will merge under the new name:
Titty Titty Bang Bang








And finally...






10. Mother's Jams & Jellies and Smucker's Jams & Jellies will unite to be:


Mother Smucker's
TooFarTampa avatar
SoWal Insider
#109
Yeah, actually I do.

I think TFT had mom take some XOM off the table and then hooked her up with a trailing stop--I hope it worked out for her. TFT was on the right track by asking questions when the energy market was wild and wooly and did her mom a service by being the voice of reason.

.

I remember that discussion. I'll be interested to hear what TFT's mom did. I didn't touch mine...haven't touched it in 54 years.

Oh I just saw this. TFT's mom did NOT follow through on the stop-loss plan. Months ago I tried to get her to plan to sell a big chunk at $75, and then more if it dropped to $65. She agreed on the $75 stop-loss, but she did not commit to how much to sell, said she was going to meet with a new financial planner first (who would of course tell her the same thing). Did not meet with the planner, did not execute the order, and I've stopped bringing it up. :bang:
Miss Kitty avatar
Meow
#110
Oh I just saw this. TFT's mom did NOT follow through on the stop-loss plan. Months ago I tried to get her to plan to sell a big chunk at $75, and then more if it dropped to $65. She agreed on the $75 stop-loss, but she did not commit to how much to sell, said she was going to meet with a new financial planner first (who would of course tell her the same thing). Did not meet with the planner, did not execute the order, and I've stopped bringing it up. :bang:

If it makes you feel any better, PawPaw is still paying to rent a touchtone phone from the phone company. He thinks it is funny. :bang:

Deep breaths. :wave:
TooFarTampa avatar
SoWal Insider
#111
If it makes you feel any better, PawPaw is still paying to rent a touchtone phone from the phone company. He thinks it is funny. :bang:

Deep breaths. :wave:

:wave: Thanks. She's still busy at work and saving her Social Security payments, so overall, she is doing just fine and feeling very fortunate.
Miss Kitty avatar
Meow
#112
:wave: Thanks. She's still busy at work and saving her Social Security payments, so overall, she is doing just fine and feeling very fortunate.


My friend, I consider us both lucky children. :wub:
TooFarTampa avatar
SoWal Insider
#113
My friend, I consider us both lucky children. :wub:

So very true!
SHELLY avatar
SoWal Insider
#114
Oh I just saw this. TFT's mom did NOT follow through on the stop-loss plan. Months ago I tried to get her to plan to sell a big chunk at $75, and then more if it dropped to $65. She agreed on the $75 stop-loss, but she did not commit to how much to sell, said she was going to meet with a new financial planner first (who would of course tell her the same thing). Did not meet with the planner, did not execute the order, and I've stopped bringing it up. :bang:

Oh shoot!

Hats off to you TFT for making an excellent call and being on top of the market.

You're right about letting the subject go...at least Mom has still got the dividends coming in :idontno:

.
traderx avatar
Beach Fanatic
#117
I cannot believe that Buffet used the word "market". He is known to be a market agnostic.

I heard that Circuit City had gotten pounded. It closed today at 0.39. Kinda hard to believe.
AAbsolute avatar
Banned
#118
Hang in there, Clint. Worst Worst Worst case is :

SPX 945 closed 1106

DJII 8400 closed 10365

Who knows , we may be there by Thursday !!!!!!

Has anyone noticed that the market seems to be pegged to Goofer's prediction? It's been volatile for sure, but so far it seems to be on a short leash circling that post.

I saw Goofer reading Barron's one Sunday.
traderx avatar
Beach Fanatic
#119
Has anyone noticed that the market seems to be pegged to Goofer's prediction? It's been volatile for sure, but so far it seems to be on a short leash circling that post.

I saw Goofer reading Barron's one Sunday.

The Dow hit a low of 7,552 a few weeks ago. I don't believe that low will hold. The market is trying too hard to put its best foot forward and probably is a sign of the nervous nellies. Over the next year, I think we will see some stock market lows that will rattle investors. Bernanke is very nervous. That makes me nervous. Hard times to come...
30ashopper avatar
SoWal Insider
#120
The Dow hit a low of 7,552 a few weeks ago. I don't believe that low will hold. The market is trying too hard to put its best foot forward and probably is a sign of the nervous nellies. Over the next year, I think we will see some stock market lows that will rattle investors. Bernanke is very nervous. That makes me nervous. Hard times to come...


I agree, the sell off is far from over. I'd say S&P 500 lows of around 500. We'll probaby pass through that level a few times over the next six months to a year. Revised lower earnings for 2009 arent baked into this thing yet.
AAbsolute avatar
Banned
#121
I agree, the sell off is far from over. I'd say S&P 500 lows of around 500. We'll probaby pass through that level a few times over the next six months to a year. Revised lower earnings for 2009 arent baked into this thing yet.

Cool.
30ashopper avatar
SoWal Insider
#122
Cool.

I sense some sarcasm in your response. :D
AAbsolute avatar
Banned
#123
I sense some sarcasm in your response. :D

That's my kneejerk reaction to terrible, but believable, news.

On the upside, the only thing that can really fix this whole conundrum is the realizing and taking ownership of these losses.
TNJed avatar
Beach Fanatic
#124
I agree, the sell off is far from over. I'd say S&P 500 lows of around 500. We'll probaby pass through that level a few times over the next six months to a year. Revised lower earnings for 2009 arent baked into this thing yet.


That's closer to the truth. America is bankrupt. Kaput.

The FED and the PPT are doing everything they can to keep the markets from collapsing. So much money will be printed in 2009 the collapse of the dollar won't be far behind. The big crash hasn't even happened yet.

9000 hedge funds have about $9 trillion dollars to deleverage and that takes years. Start loading up on gold and oil and liquidating assets. Taking delivery on gold is probably a good idea. It's very low right now. MAY go under $700 but when it's over $2k it won't really matter.

We produce nothing and consume everything. The party is over boomers. Linear consumption leveraged with debt within a cyclical universe is a one-way ticket to implosion. Over the top? nope.

We've known nothing but prosperity and most can't even fathom what's going to happen. History repeats, nature repeats, human emotions repeat. Natural law, fractals, Fibonacci, it's science!

Depression after 2010 and we hit the reset button.

good luck, god bless.

www.storyofstuff.com
www.iousathemovie.com
Banned
#125
tnj you sould like you're in the stock mkt?
TNJed avatar
Beach Fanatic
#126
tnj you sould like you're in the stock mkt?

I've been trading daily for about a year. I'm not new to math but was new to finance. I feel like I've just walked into a horror movie during the climax.

http://www.portfolio.com/news-marke...11/11/The-End-of-Wall-Streets-Boom?print=true

Here's a post by a friend of mine on a finance board who puts it...more eloquently?

"The bobble head dolls at CNBC, Bloomberg, etc. would have you believe we're on the cusp of a sustained bear run that will take the S&P north of 1100, and yet there's this enormous flight to treasuries (with negative returns in some instances), staggering unemployment numbers, constantly downward revised guidance and vastly reduced orders. WTF is going on here?

This is cognitive dissonance at its best, my friends. The MSM bull blitz/barrage is attempting to assuage investors, convincing them that despite the absolutely vicious nature of this downturn, there is a light at the end of 2009 and brother Obama will lessen the pain along the way. This is so much utter bullsh*t that one can barely fathom the depths of their depravity. If you think putting us deeper in debt to alleviate problems caused precisely by too much debt will be rectified so easily, I've got a bridge to sell you.

It would appear that the media outlets have successfully convinced us that "deficits don't matter", carpe diem and onward and upward. Irrationality is pulling this bull by the nose ring. The best thing that could happen to this country is a prolonged period of suffering. That we are trying to avoid anything resembling true repentance for our 25-year credit-based consumer rampage just proves to me that we are F'ing toast - whether now or later. That we'll make it through this latest predicament I have no doubt, but make no mistake - it will come at the price of our credit rating, our currency, our standing in the world, and much, much more. We have used our last get out of jail free card and the rest of the world has tired of us. When the IOUs come due and we debase our currency or outright default, don't expect the Arabs, Asians or even the Europeans to come riding to the rescue by propping up our sham of a tertiary/quaternary-based economy. People still want to consume things - problem is, we don't make anything of value. See GM, Ford & Chrysler. Yeah, deficits don't matter. Whatever."

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