Immigration Debate

Maybe if our government could do something to get the collective governments of Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador and the other suspects off their butts and have diverse economies, we wouldn't have '(Mexicans) forced to scale walls' to cash in on short term gain within our borders. I can't believe how wrong you are about what is morally just and unjust. There is nothing morally just about saddling US taxpayers present and future with funding a piece of junk legislation. There is nothing morally just with inviting millions of poor, uneducated people to our country to enjoy the 'lucrative' life of living on government benefits. There is nothing morally just with placing more burden on already stressed education and healthcare systems in our country. How can you understand so clearly the utter failure the war on poverty has been, yet you advocate importing greater poverty so the feds can really prove how well they can fight poverty? That makes zero sense;none, zilch. Just as our gutless elected officials refuse to address fundamental issues regarding the perpetual poverty cycle as they currently exist, they will in the future refuse to address fundamental problems and you and I will both be paying for it my friend. It is a given that there is going to be a Social Security and probably Medicare/Medicaid crisis within 20 years-do you really think the moral high road includes throwing more bodies requiring payment into the mix? Just so we are on the same page, what is your understanding regarding the method of payment for benefits and services these newly legit folks will be receiving?

EXCELLENT post and one I agree with.

I can only talk from experience - my family and I have been immigrants in practically every country we have lived in and have been displaced by war and in all cases, assimilation and education was top goal. When we (my sisters and I) came into this country, it was with the idea that we would try navigate through the morrass of INS legally. It took me over 6 years to get a green card (I did it legally, expensively (because trying to deal with all of the bureaucrats and delays and gobbligook (sp??) and pages and pages of instructions on how to fill in ONE form was INSANE - trying to do this w/o an attorney would have been sheer lunacy.) - Cost money, time, resources and HELL.

Even the fact that I was an educated person (Bachelor's and 2 Master degrees), spoke, read and write 3 languages (almost!) - I am one of many people I know who have had a hell of a time coming in (my lawyer in Miami actually told me once in extreme frustration, after yet another inexplicable delay because a box from INS had been inappropriately ticked off, that it would have been easier for me to go the illegal route!!).

So to cut to the point: amnesty for millions of illegals is IMHO, lunacy at this point - the fact that some legislators think paperwork can be filed, processed and administered in a day is beyond laughable.

And immigrants should do their VERY best to assimilate and learn english. Having lived in Miami for a number of years I can tell you I came across on a daily basis, cubans who had lived in the US for over 20 years and still could not speak the language.

There was a interesting recent debate in France over the issue of north african assimilation in Marseilles. Many store fronts were seeing signs go up in arabic and it was pissing off the french (rightly so!) that in their own country they could not read signs in their language. Cut to long protracted battle and end result was NO-ONE in France is allowed to put up a sign that does not have a french translation IF sign is also in another language - good compromise??? Possibly.

Biggest change should be that employers who hire illegal aliens should be fined in such a way that it is punitive and an incentive to NOT do this again.

Sorry for stream of consciousness post - have no idea if this is coherent. Am in Mexico right now enjoying a fabulous week of R & R and amazing diving!!!!

You assume that the current group of immigrants would behave in a similar manner to those in the past;6th Gen, you might be right, but I challenge you to identify the immigrant group from our history who burnt their first calorie on US soil breaking United States law. Which historic group envisioned sending the bulk of their assets back to the country from which they came instead of focusing on living the American dream? Do you really think Ted Kennedy and his ilk are going to tinker with the minimum wage to correct social ills at this point?

Here is the bottom line-Nobody argues the fact that granting pseudo-citizenship to tens of millions of people will be any cheaper than several billions of dollars, and this isn't a one time cost. WHAT HAVE OUR PRO-AMNESTY SENATORS AND PRESIDENT DONE TO ENSURE THE COSTS WILL BE PAID??? The illegals can't pay for it;the stat I saw was that each illegal man, woman and child here already represent a roughly $20,000 drain on the treasury annually...how are we going to pay for this foolishness? Cut taxes? Cut programs? Raise taxes? Note I am not asking what 6thGen would do about raising the money, what are the architects of this bill doing to assure this is not an unfunded mandate?

First, I?m not debating the bill itself. That?s pointless because it doesn?t have a shot at passing. I?m speaking on immigration in general. To the point on breaking US law, I see it in the same light that I see breaking laws regarding smuggling slaves in the 19th century. Our current no room at the inn policy is morally wrong. Honestly, a sudden and monumental strain on the current welfare state would be a great thing, because it would force us to address the issue at its core and address the largest economic mistake in this Republic?s history, The New Deal.

First, I?m not debating the bill itself. That?s pointless because it doesn?t have a shot at passing. I?m speaking on immigration in general. To the point on breaking US law, I see it in the same light that I see breaking laws regarding smuggling slaves in the 19th century. Our current no room at the inn policy is morally wrong. Honestly, a sudden and monumental strain on the current welfare state would be a great thing, because it would force us to address the issue at its core and address the largest economic mistake in this Republic?s history, The New Deal.

You are the eternal optimist. The government's track record on correcting economic blunders is unimpressive. Once the genie is out of the bottle, it never goes back in! I think it is unpatriotic to root for total meltdown in the name of progress. What is our 'no room at the inn policy'? Judging by the numbers I see with my own eyes, there is plenty of room at the inn, and from what I hear out of Washington, 'the inn' is about to serve three hot meals a day compliments of the house.

You are the eternal optimist. The government's track record on correcting economic blunders is unimpressive. Once the genie is out of the bottle, it never goes back in! I think it is unpatriotic to root for total meltdown in the name of progress. What is our 'no room at the inn policy'? Judging by the numbers I see with my own eyes, there is plenty of room at the inn, and from what I hear out of Washington, 'the inn' is about to serve three hot meals a day compliments of the house.

I realize that there is nothing more permanent than a temporary government program, and that those programs cost a lot of money. I also realize that deficit spending is the best way to reduce overall government spending because it forces politicians to decrease spending rather than pay the political price for increasing taxes. As for the no room at the inn comment, I?m speaking of how difficult and cumbersome legal immigration is.

With Bob posting this morning at 2am, and others following suit at 6am, I hereby dub you guys the Early Morning Debate Club.

Did I say there was? No. I said the problem is the government benefits, not the immigrants. As for poor and uneducated, that's what every immigrant group that came to this country was. Not to get into it, but crime wise - first generation immigrants are rarely criminals, second generation are usually some of our most upstanding citizens, third are usually on par with suburban whites, and fourth are on par with poor blacks. The problem of crime is self-created, and that's something that needs to be addressed. I'd start with elimination of minimum wage (which specifically keeps black teenagers unemployed) and drug legalization. But that is another topic.

Where the hell do you get this info or these ideas? Sounds like anthropological "fact" on par with the infamous "anyone with a tattoo who dies outside prison has either not yet commited their crime or is a degenerate aristocrat"

Care to back any of these generalizations up w/ some data? I'd love to see why I'm supposed to be committing crimes at the same rate as "poor blacks" rather than being my law abiding citizen self.

I do know this, if the gov't makes a decision to grant amnesty and citizenship to all current illegal aliens, they will essentially be allowing everyone in Mexico, a running start for the US border for free citizenship and great wages and benefits, and if they sign up with CrappyBank of Lost America, they can send all of their wages directly back to their families in Mexico. If I were Mexican, I'd be packing my backback right now. Remember when the Walton County BCC decided to stop issuing building permits for Driftwood Estates? They didn't make it effective, immediately, at the time they made the decision. The next morning, the developer pulled 80 building permits.

It ain't rocket science...

Holy cow, look how timely! Maybe if you want to ever see your 53rd floor condo finished, you ought to be pulling for the amnesty bill

Jun 27, 2:27 PM (ET)

By MELISSA NELSON

PANAMA CITY BEACH, Fla. (AP) - The sheriff's department has developed a remarkably effective - and controversial - way of catching illegal immigrants: Deputies in patrol cars pull up to a construction site in force, and watch and see who runs.
Those who take off are chased down and arrested on charges such as trespassing, for cutting through someone else's property, or loitering, for hiding out in someone's yard, or reckless driving, for speeding off in a car.
U.S. immigration authorities are then given the names of those believed to be in this country illegally.
"It's not wrong for them to run, but it's not wrong for us to chase them either," said Sheriff Frank McKeithen, who created his Illegal Alien Task Force in April to target construction sites in this Florida Panhandle county.
Immigrant advocates say the technique is repugnant, and the ACLU says its constitutionality is questionable.
Illegal immigrants are leaving town. And builders are worried the crackdown will deprive them of the labor they need to take part in a building boom in which Panama City's Beach cheap spring-break motels are being torn down and replaced with high-rise condos.
The sheriff said the raids are justified under a long-standing Florida law prohibiting employers from knowingly hiring illegal immigrants.
His department has conducted dozens of these raids over the past three months, sometimes using five or six patrol cars, and has reported more than 500 people to immigration officials since November.
The Mexican American Legal Defense Fund is investigating the arrests because "the intimidation factor is of great concern," said Elise Shore, regional counsel for the organization.
Benjamin Stevenson, an attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union in Florida, said he finds the tactic troubling.
"Why are they sending out six or seven agents to investigate a paper crime, and are they causing them to run in the first place through intimidation?" he asked.
As the debate over illegal immigration plays out in Washington, McKeithen is among a growing number of state and local officials taking it upon themselves to enforce immigration laws that up to now were regarded as a federal responsibility.
For example, Farmers Branch, Texas, is trying to prohibit apartment rentals to illegal immigrants in the Dallas suburb. Georgia passed a law requiring employers to verify the immigration status of all new employees.
Barbara Gonzalez, a spokeswoman for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement in Miami, would not comment on the sheriff's tactics.
McKeithen has asked Florida Attorney General Bill McCollum for a legal opinion on his tactics. A spokeswoman for McCollum said the office is researching the request.
McKeithen is already under fire from civil rights groups over the videotaped 2006 death of a 14-year-old boy who was roughed up by guards at a juvenile boot camp operated by the sheriff's department. Eight former employees are facing manslaughter charges.
The sheriff said that more recently, his officers have been making fewer arrests of workers who flee, and are concentrating more on asking employers for the paperwork on their employees. Sheriff's deputies then arrest workers whose documents are found to be fraudulent.
Mexican illegal immigrant Jose Madrid, 28, said he has been unable to find a construction job over the past six weeks because of the crackdown, and hasn't been able to send money to his parents and his 7-year-old son back home.
"We immigrants, we are leaving Panama City. People are afraid they will be deported," he said. "The companies don't want to hire illegal people. Now they're only hiring those with papers."
Developer Louis Breland is finishing the first phase of a $750 million beach condo project.
"Subcontractors could not function without immigrant laborers for painting, rebar and steel work. They are the best workers," he said. "Without them, the cost of construction would be 10 times as much and nothing would get built."

Interesting! Are they cracking down because they truly feel it is a public safety issue or because they are trying to run off the cheaper laborers so the "locals" have a better chance of finding work in the stagnant building environment?

I was going to post a question in the general Sowal forum about why there has been a Sheriff's car at the Redfish condo job site in Blue Mountain every evening for the last week or so. Wonder if it's a similar deal?

Interesting! Are they cracking down because they truly feel it is a public safety issue or because they are trying to run off the cheaper laborers so the "locals" have a better chance of finding work in the stagnant building environment?

I was going to post a question in the general Sowal forum about why there has been a Sheriff's car at the Redfish condo job site in Blue Mountain every evening for the last week or so. Wonder if it's a similar deal?

I don't think Walton Co, is deporting illegals, yet, so the Sheriff's Deputy is maybe there to help people slow down at the construction entrance. I have not seen the deputy at that site, so it's only a guess.

The article regarding PCB is interesting. However, I think if they paid construction workers the price which they are worth, they would have plenty of help. Those are some of the most difficult, and physically dangerous jobs in this area, and yet, they are paid entry level wages. Sure, things would cost more up front, to build without the illegal work, but the back end might be less expensive, and the American Flag would not be replaced by the Mexican Flag.

I don't think Walton Co, is deporting illegals, yet, so the Sheriff's Deputy is maybe there to help people slow down at the construction entrance. I have not seen the deputy at that site, so it's only a guess. Is the Deputy checking IDs?

By the time I go by on my way home everyone has pretty much cleared out, but I have been seeing a marked car and uniformed offier either sitting right inside the entrance or across the street in the drive to another project for weeks. No radar gun that I can see and the across the street location offers no screening for a speed trap.

Hey jackass, percentage wise, it's no different than in the past. And the point, which you intentionally miss, is that if terrorists wanted to get into the country they wouldn't have to come through Mexico.

No, it isn't! See where I actually posted statistics and facts! Legal immigration is increasing and illegal immigration is rapidly increasing.

Where the hell do you get this info or these ideas? Sounds like anthropological "fact" on par with the infamous "anyone with a tattoo who dies outside prison has either not yet commited their crime or is a degenerate aristocrat"

Care to back any of these generalizations up w/ some data? I'd love to see why I'm supposed to be committing crimes at the same rate as "poor blacks" rather than being my law abiding citizen self.

I never said anything about tattoos. I?ll try to find the article, I read it a few years ago, but you?ve shown that you won?t give credence to facts unless the facts fit in your politically correct world view. And I never said that every fourth generation immigrant is a trouble maker, but crime shows a positive correlation with future generations, which is not what the talk radio crowd would like for you to believe.

I do know this, if the gov't makes a decision to grant amnesty and citizenship to all current illegal aliens, they will essentially be allowing everyone in Mexico, a running start for the US border for free citizenship and great wages and benefits, and if they sign up with CrappyBank of Lost America, they can send all of their wages directly back to their families in Mexico. If I were Mexican, I'd be packing my backback right now. Remember when the Walton County BCC decided to stop issuing building permits for Driftwood Estates? They didn't make it effective, immediately, at the time they made the decision. The next morning, the developer pulled 80 building permits.

It ain't rocket science...

What?s wrong with more immigration? If there wasn?t a demand for labor, Mexicans wouldn?t be coming here. Are you against all outsourcing of labor, or only when they shop at your local Wal-Mart?

No, it isn't! See where I actually posted statistics and facts! Legal immigration is increasing and illegal immigration is rapidly increasing.

Here's what your source said "At the peak of the Great Wave of immigration in 1910, the number of immigrants living in the U.S. was less than half of what it is today, though the percentage of the population was slightly higher."

By the time I go by on my way home everyone has pretty much cleared out, but I have been seeing a marked car and uniformed offier either sitting right inside the entrance or across the street in the drive to another project for weeks. No radar gun that I can see and the across the street location offers no screening for a speed trap.

Oli also hires an off duty Deputy to sit in front of 3Thirty1. He isn't their writing tickets, but he does slow people down by his presence.

When a shift begins or ends, it is very dangerous when passing these places.

I never said anything about tattoos. I?ll try to find the article, I read it a few years ago, but you?ve shown that you won?t give credence to facts unless the facts fit in your politically correct world view. And I never said that every fourth generation immigrant is a trouble maker, but crime shows a positive correlation with future generations, which is not what the talk radio crowd would like for you to believe.

That was an example of "evidence" that has since been disproved.

Show me some actual facts and I'll see if I can wedge them into my deplorable world view.

So if a 4th generation is on par w "poor blacks" what are 5th and 6th generations on par with? By your logic you should be typing inside your cell block.

Oli also hires an off duty Deputy to sit in front of 3Thirty1. He isn't their writing tickets, but he does slow people down by his presence.

When a shift begins or ends, it is very dangerous when passing these places.

Yeah, but that guy is flashing his lights and is parking at the base of the 331 bridge and where pedestrians are crossing the street.

These deputies are in a very low traffic area w/ no cross street and are usually back in the site so they aren't visually deterring speeders.

What?s wrong with more immigration? If there wasn?t a demand for labor, Mexicans wouldn?t be coming here. Are you against all outsourcing of labor, or only when they shop at your local Wal-Mart?

I don't know why I bother typing if you aren't going to read what I type.

During the 1990s, an average of more than 1.3 million immigrants ? legal and illegal ? settled in the United States each year. Between January 2000 and March 2002, 3.3 million additional immigrants have arrived. In less than 50 years, the U.S. Census Bureau projects that immigration will cause the population of the United States to increase from its present 288 million to more than 400 million.
The foreign-born population of the United States is currently 33.1 million, equal to 11.5 percent of the U.S. population. Of this total, the Census Bureau estimates 8-9 million are illegal immigrants. Other estimates indicate a considerably higher number of illegal immigrants.
Approximately 1 million people receive permanent residency annually. In addition, the Census Bureau estimates a net increase of 500,000 illegal immigrants annually.
The present level of immigration is significantly higher than the average historical level of immigration. This flow may be attributed, in part, to the extraordinary broadening of U.S. immigration policy in 1965. Since 1970, more than 30 million legal and illegal immigrants have settled in the U.S., representing more than one-third of all people ever to come to America's shores.
At the peak of the Great Wave of immigration in 1910, the number of immigrants living in the U.S. was less than half of what it is today, though the percentage of the population was slightly higher. The annual arrival of 1.5 million legal and illegal immigrants, coupled with 750,000 annual births to immigrant women, is the determinate factor? or three-fourths? of all U.S. population growth.

Yes, back when US the population was smaller, the lesser quantity of immigration did still mean they comprised a higher percentage rate of the population. However, the current immigration level is much higher.

That was an example of "evidence" that has since been disproved.

Show me some actual facts and I'll see if I can wedge them into my deplorable world view.

So if a 4th generation is on par w "poor blacks" what are 5th and 6th generations on par with? By your logic you should be typing inside your cell block.

I didn?t say your world view was deplorable, I said it was politically correct. Again, I read the article years ago, but I?ll do my best to find it. Regardless, it will require work on my part which you won?t appreciate and based on past history, you will offer more effort to discrediting the author?s resume than you will reading the article itself. As far as the number and percentage of immigrants, if it is higher, that?s great. Immigrants wouldn?t be immigrating if there were no jobs available, so it shows that our economy is growing at a faster rate than it was before.

I don't know why I bother typing if you aren't going to read what I type.

I know how you feel, but what did I miss? Your argument was that Mexicans send money home, i.e. they don't spend all of it here. When you deal with an Indian on the Dell help line, do you think he's spending money at Pizza By the Sea?

Yes, back when US the population was smaller, the lesser quantity of immigration did still mean they comprised a higher percentage rate of the population. However, the current immigration level is much higher.

In numbers, but not as a percentage. If it was higher as a percentage, which it may be, that's a good thing.

Immigrants wouldn?t be immigrating if there were no jobs available, so it shows that our economy is growing at a faster rate than it was before.

There is a major difference between someone who breaks the law by migrating here, and someone who goes through the tough process of legal immigration. It seems that our Gov't is all for rewarding bad behaviour, and in return, they will receive more bad behaviour.

As for the illegals sending money back to their country of origin, I have no issue with that, except that they are most likely not paying taxes on their income, if they are using fake SS #s to get the job. That is the part with which I have a problem. Same goes for the illegal trade which goes on in this country in the way of drugs dealers. They are often paying taxes on their legitimate jobs, as a part time worker earning hardly any wages, yet the bulk of their cash income goes untaxed. Hell, we are probably even paying them welfare.

Hey jackass, percentage wise, it's no different than in the past. And the point, which you intentionally miss, is that if terrorists wanted to get into the country they wouldn't have to come through Mexico.

You are incorrect. The highest level of immigrants ever in this country based on figures by a respectable research firm being used is 10-13%.
The current bill will allow in the next decade a 25% immigrant population based on allowing family to be brought over with no limits to children and wives. Further, siblings and parents can also be brought over. So, it is possible that 25% may be a lower than expected estimate.

First, I?m not debating the bill itself. That?s pointless because it doesn?t have a shot at passing. I?m speaking on immigration in general. To the point on breaking US law, I see it in the same light that I see breaking laws regarding smuggling slaves in the 19th century. Our current no room at the inn policy is morally wrong. Honestly, a sudden and monumental strain on the current welfare state would be a great thing, because it would force us to address the issue at its core and address the largest economic mistake in this Republic?s history, The New Deal.

So you endorse adding to the existing welfare system to promote reform? We won't even be able to detect possible amnesty fraud.

1. There is a huge potential for amnesty fraud. In order to receive amnesty and a Z visa and be put on a pathway to citizenship, an illegal immigrant must demonstrate that he or she was in the U.S. illegally and employed on January 1, 2007. However, the standard to demonstrate residence is very loose. The illegal immigrant need merely produce two affidavits from non-relatives asserting that he or she was working in the U.S. on the appropriate date. The affidavits could even come from other illegal immigrants. It is doubtful that the Department of Homeland Security has any real capacity to separate true affidavits from bogus ones, especially in the crush of processing millions of applications in the space of a year or two. Consequently, the potential for amnesty based on fraudulent documents is very high. In the 1986 amnesty, an estimated 25 percent of the amnesties granted were fraudulent.[20] In the last 20 years, the underground industry producing fraudulent documents has grown vastly larger and more sophisticated. In this round of amnesty, the fraud rate could be as high as or higher than in 1986, resulting in millions of additional amnesties.

Did I say there was? No. I said the problem is the government benefits, not the immigrants. As for poor and uneducated, that's what every immigrant group that came to this country was. Not to get into it, but crime wise - first generation immigrants are rarely criminals, second generation are usually some of our most upstanding citizens, third are usually on par with suburban whites, and fourth are on par with poor blacks. The problem of crime is self-created, and that's something that needs to be addressed. I'd start with elimination of minimum wage (which specifically keeps black teenagers unemployed) and drug legalization. But that is another topic.

I disagree with this assessment. Most generational immigrant families worked hard, got an education and instilled those values in their children and so on. You're assessment doesn't account for 1st generation immigrant families that did not even make the census counts, so how and where did you even come up with this banal tripe?

and Chickpea, the fact that you and so many other immigrants worked so hard to gain citizenship in a "legal" fashion and faced such difficulty only proves how ridiculous it will be to process and grant amnesty to 12 million current illegal aliens and without trying to differntiate who is most deserving and isn't commiting fraud.
My Dutch BIL just was sworn in last month after 5 years in the process. Further he worked and was educated here in the US, had credit here, married my sister (In Holland), had 2 children and always worked for an American Company. When he lost his job and had the qualifications to work for a Federal organization, who wanted to hire him, but couldn't because he didn't have citizenship yet and it required security clearance, he was forced to move his family to another State and accept another position.

There is a major difference between someone who breaks the law by migrating here, and someone who goes through the tough process of legal immigration. It seems that our Gov't is all for rewarding bad behaviour, and in return, they will receive more bad behaviour.

As for the illegals sending money back to their country of origin, I have no issue with that, except that they are most likely not paying taxes on their income, if they are using fake SS #s to get the job. That is the part with which I have a problem. Same goes for the illegal trade which goes on in this country in the way of drugs dealers. They are often paying taxes on their legitimate jobs, as a part time worker earning hardly any wages, yet the bulk of their cash income goes untaxed. Hell, we are probably even paying them welfare.

Do you speed? That?s breaking the law. When the government passes stupid laws, people break them. As I said with minimum wage, they?ve decreased legal employment among black teenagers. By doing so, they?ve pushed many into illegal employment, often selling drugs. There is a black market for drugs because the government has come to see itself as a parent, and has limited the ways people can hurt themselves. By making drugs illegal, they?ve criminalized those that sell them, and pushed them into further crime such as violent crime, as is the nature of the black market. The current immigration laws have created a black market for labor, so the immigration laws encourage illegal activity. Of course none of the laws I?ve mentioned intended to reap the damage they have wrought, but politicians often lack foresight and common sense. Even the great ones make mistakes, Churchill set the British welfare state in motion before he was PM, but it?s difficult to get them to correct them. That?s what we need to do with immigration, and that?s what we need to do with our own welfare state.

I?m all for taxing immigrants on their income, but when stupid laws are passed, people find ways around them. If we had an open borders policy, we wouldn?t force immigrants to forge documents necessary to obtain work, and their wages would be taxed.