Immigration Debate

This thread sure went downhill fast!

I think you mean it got Flat-Earthed.

May be best to do the debating from the work computer.

and Chickpea, the fact that you and so many other immigrants worked so hard to gain citizenship in a "legal" fashion and faced such difficulty only proves how ridiculous it will be to process and grant amnesty to 12 million current illegal aliens and without trying to differntiate who is most deserving and isn't commiting fraud.
My Dutch BIL just was sworn in last month after 5 years in the process. Further he worked and was educated here in the US, had credit here, married my sister (In Holland), had 2 children and always worked for an American Company. When he lost his job and had the qualifications to work for a Federal organization, who wanted to hire him, but couldn't because he didn't have citizenship yet and it required security clearance, he was forced to move his family to another State and accept another position.

Mango,

Congrats to your dutch Bil - I know how hard it is - hope he enjoys and reaps benefits of his hard work and patience! Ultimately what I have come to terms with is that no-one will ever worry about immigrants like us (mixed blessing I guess) - we are percieved as havings means, education and resources to take care of ourselves and we will generally always follow legal recourses - this whole debate is obviously only about those who go about it illegally.

The whole wall in Texas bothers me greatly yet I have no idea how to handle the porous borders - I just know a little about the psychological impact of such a barrier can be far-reaching.

Grow up.

Did you, the guy who granted an interview to the local paper under his internet name, just tell me to grow up? Whatever you say, Clark Kent. As for the rest of your two posts, you choose to ignore how I've defended my statement with statistics, but that doesn't surprise me because so much of your schtick when you lose an argument is intentionally missing the point. Keep one keeping on, Clark.

The whole wall in Texas bothers me greatly yet I have no idea how to handle the porous borders - I just know a little about the psychological impact of such a barrier can be far-reaching.

That, and the fact that it is ridiculously easily breachable.

Mango,
The whole wall in Texas bothers me greatly yet I have no idea how to handle the porous borders - I just know a little about the psychological impact of such a barrier can be far-reaching.

The fact that we have gone from "Ich bin ein berliner" (sorry, my written german is very rusty) and "mr gorbatrev tear down this wall" to BUILDING walls is very disconcerting. A physical barrier is not only psychologically damaging, it is easily breached. We need to strictly enforce our existing laws instead of coming up with farfetched and ineffective solutions.

The fact that we have gone from "Ich bin ein berliner" (sorry, my written german is very rusty) and "mr gorbatrev tear down this wall" to BUILDING walls is very disconcerting. A physical barrier is not only psychologically damaging, it is easily breached. We need to strictly enforce our existing laws instead of coming up with farfetched and ineffective solutions.

Agreed Scooterbug with your point of enforcing existing or new laws, and btw: the fact that there are thousands of entry points from Canada into this country make the whole wall idea even more ludicrous - true, a Mexican will have a hard time getting into Canada but if you were a terrorist, where would you head????? (although I know this is not a terrorism thread!).

Agreed Scooterbug with your point of enforcing existing or new laws, and btw: the fact that there are thousands of entry points from Canada into this country make the whole wall idea even more ludicrous - true, a Mexican will have a hard time getting into Canada but if you were a terrorist, where would you head????? (although I know this is not a terrorism thread!).

Chickpea, don't look now, but you are actually making part of my argument. Better wash your keyboard out with soap.

I wouldn't advise washing the keyboard with soap.
I tried that once and ended up typing li e th s.

Chickpea, don't look now, but you are actually making part of my argument. Better wash your keyboard out with soap.

I am OK with the fact that we agree on some things...

You assume that the current group of immigrants would behave in a similar manner to those in the past;6th Gen, you might be right, but I challenge you to identify the immigrant group from our history who burnt their first calorie on US soil breaking United States law. Which historic group envisioned sending the bulk of their assets back to the country from which they came instead of focusing on living the American dream? Do you really think Ted Kennedy and his ilk are going to tinker with the minimum wage to correct social ills at this point?

Here is the bottom line-Nobody argues the fact that granting pseudo-citizenship to tens of millions of people will be any cheaper than several billions of dollars, and this isn't a one time cost. WHAT HAVE OUR PRO-AMNESTY SENATORS AND PRESIDENT DONE TO ENSURE THE COSTS WILL BE PAID??? The illegals can't pay for it;the stat I saw was that each illegal man, woman and child here already represent a roughly $20,000 drain on the treasury annually...how are we going to pay for this foolishness? Cut taxes? Cut programs? Raise taxes? Note I am not asking what 6thGen would do about raising the money, what are the architects of this bill doing to assure this is not an unfunded mandate?

Hmm, $20,000 per each illegal man, woman, and child per year. Tens of millions of people? Let's just use 2 "tens of millions". I still haven't put my shoes back on from the other thread so while I have my toes out to count on......$400,000,000 annually? Nearly half a trillion? :yikes:
Seems an absurd statement.:idontno:

Hmm, $20,000 per each illegal man, woman, and child per year. Tens of millions of people? Let's just use 2 "tens of millions". I still haven't put my shoes back on from the other thread so while I have my toes out to count on......$400,000,000 annually? Nearly half a trillion? :yikes:
Seems an absurd statement.:idontno:

That's a little less than the current Iraq War cost, and that is indeed an absurdity.

Hmm, $20,000 per each illegal man, woman, and child per year. Tens of millions of people? Let's just use 2 "tens of millions". I still haven't put my shoes back on from the other thread so while I have my toes out to count on......$400,000,000 annually? Nearly half a trillion? :yikes:
Seems an absurd statement.:idontno:

OK, lets say they present a liability of $1 per head...you want to cough up the pesos? I stand by my math based on the fact that I have seen dozens of these folks sucking up health care gratis, (or is it libre?) and the bills, if ever actually paid by anybody would be tens of thousands of dollars.

Do "these folks" offer any benefits to our society? Some numbers I saw a few months back though I am sure it has changed some due to the housing slow down: Illegal aliens make up %8.6 of the work force, national unemployment is %5.4. Assuming all unemployed could step in and be productive immediately, what do we do with the other %3? That would still leave a goose egg in the jobless rate which is surely not healthy for the countryand an aging population should welcome new blood. But this is a nation of laws!! How many people here "smoke"? Anyone ever leave any of our fine establishments a little over the limit? I am not advocating a run on social services by Illegals but in the same vein I see a few of our own citizenry wrongfully using those same services. Having lived in rural GA and now in "rural" FL, native born can be much more abusive of our system imo

Gordoboy, I went and looked for the financial impacy of illegals...you caught me in a fib. :blush: I added a zero to the total annual sum and apologize to all for the error. Still, the impact is not minimal:http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

Gordoboy, I went and looked for the financial impacy of illegals...you caught me in a fib. :blush: I added a zero to the total annual sum and apologize to all for the error. Still, the impact is not minimal:http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

I agree that the impact is not minimal both positive and negative- it's a tough issue. In any case happy Independence Day to you Skunkape and all, discussions like this are what it is all about. I need an emoticon that floats the American Flag.

The grass is greener here.......

The grass is greener here.......

It most certainly is, the greenest.

Do "these folks" offer any benefits to our society? Some numbers I saw a few months back though I am sure it has changed some due to the housing slow down: Illegal aliens make up %8.6 of the work force, national unemployment is %5.4. Assuming all unemployed could step in and be productive immediately, what do we do with the other %3? That would still leave a goose egg in the jobless rate which is surely not healthy for the countryand an aging population should welcome new blood. But this is a nation of laws!! How many people here "smoke"? Anyone ever leave any of our fine establishments a little over the limit? I am not advocating a run on social services by Illegals but in the same vein I see a few of our own citizenry wrongfully using those same services. Having lived in rural GA and now in "rural" FL, native born can be much more abusive of our system imo

I have no problem with immigration -as I have stated previously, that's how my gene pool got here - my issue is with it being done illegally. There is a big difference between exceeding the speed limit and someone illegally entering, living in, and fraudently using tens of thousands of dollars of the social services of a country.

I have no problem with immigration -as I have stated previously, that's how my gene pool got here - my issue is with it being done illegally. There is a big difference between exceeding the speed limit and someone illegally entering, living in, and fraudently using tens of thousands of dollars of the social services of a country.

There is a big difference between exceeding the speed limit and driving drunk. I was comparing misdemeanors not civil infractions. Being here illegally is a misdemeanor charge (and how many folks charged with misdemeanors are let go with little or no punishment everyday?). This is not a one sided issue of all we do for the illegals they do for us as well. People crossed borders to fill waiting jobs, not jobs Americans won't do, but jobs Americans can not do because there aren't enough of us (reference my above post on joblessness). To any who immigrated here legally congratulations on being able to live out in the open and not half under a rock.

There is a big difference between exceeding the speed limit and driving drunk. I was comparing misdemeanors not civil infractions. Being here illegally is a misdemeanor charge (and how many folks charged with misdemeanors are let go with little or no punishment everyday?). This is not a one sided issue of all we do for the illegals they do for us as well. People crossed borders to fill waiting jobs, not jobs Americans won't do, but jobs Americans can not do because there aren't enough of us (reference my above post on joblessness). To any who immigrated here legally congratulations on being able to live out in the open and not half under a rock.

I'm uninformed regarding the crime of being in the USA, illegally, but I do believe that income tax evasion is not a misdemeanor, and I do believe that falsified govt documents such as a Social Security Card and Driver's License is not a minor offense. I would venture a guess to say that many of the illegal aliens are not paying income taxes, as they are often paid in cash, and many of the ones whom are being paid via paychecks, are providing false documentation and ID's to their employers.

Regarding that other bold comment, I believe that every job in the US would be filled by Americans or legal immigrants if the jobs paid enough. ;-) Perhaps dishwashers and lawn care jobs warrant more pay. :idontno:

I'm uninformed regarding the crime of being in the USA, illegally, but I do believe that income tax evasion is not a misdemeanor, and I do believe that falsified govt documents such as a Social Security Card and Driver's License is not a minor offense. I would venture a guess to say that many of the illegal aliens are not paying income taxes, as they are often paid in cash, and many of the ones whom are being paid via paychecks, are providing false documentation and ID's to their employers.

Regarding that other bold comment, I believe that every job in the US would be filled by Americans or legal immigrants if the jobs paid enough. ;-) Perhaps dishwashers and lawn care jobs warrant more pay. :idontno:

Not so much a bold statement as simply paying attention to what is reported on the national news. 8.6% of the work force is illegal and a governmet unemployment rate of 5.4% where are the people coming from to fill these jobs should the 8.6% be removed? Pull the octagenarians back in to clean behind your toilet? A pragmatic approach is needed. Inflation is bad enough as it is. To equate this with your argument in another thread--this is not a new issue it has been wink-wink from government, business, and people for 15 years, and now we decide to enforce "the law"?

as a family of LEGAL immigrants, i wonder why americans are so amenable to their government randomly deciding not to enforce democratically created laws. it appears that a govt by the people for the people is not something that is celebrated here, but a govt by the elite for the masses is what's being promoted in the media. very strange. obviously those who support illegal immigration don't support humane labor and wage laws, or human trafficking or slavery controls or public health rules -- all laws created to benefit legal immigrants and people seeking REAL opportunity and equal rights in the country that generations of immigrants have died for, worse, they don't honor people that abide by the social contract of a democratic society.

"we need the workers and it's vital to our economy" is exactly what the plantation owners used to say during slave times. too bad things haven't changed much. it's the same people insisting that we have "guest workers" instead of citizens, just like slaves didn't have citizen rights, we are eliminating our important immigration laws, to facilitate the profit margins of greed. and no, amnesty is not the answer to creating citizens.

americans shouldn't want the jobs on offer, because those jobs being offered don't honor our labor, wage and safety laws. it used to say so much about america that despite pressures from the wealthy big business people, they cared more about the average, law abiding citizen and their rights were first.

it's so sad that the elite in this country would rather have a immigrant mean a mexican to clean their toilet for $3, than the sister of a political refugee from africa. america's immigration laws are the most diverse, tolerant and embracing of any country, but americans don't seem to want educated, law abiding immigrants, just those who will never be able to afford to live in their neighborhoods. i do notice that amongst my friends those who support illegal immigration tend to be wealthy and seeking a larger profit margin, while those who don't support illegal immigration tend to be legal immigrants and working people. i wonder whose voice will be heard in the end.

even cesar chavez a legendary leader of migrant workers from mexico established his own center to fight illegal immigration, because he understood it was compassionate to no one. amnesty serves no one. least of all LEGAL immigrants who honor american laws and democracy.

I'm uninformed regarding the crime of being in the USA, illegally, but I do believe that income tax evasion is not a misdemeanor, and I do believe that falsified govt documents such as a Social Security Card and Driver's License is not a minor offense. I would venture a guess to say that many of the illegal aliens are not paying income taxes, as they are often paid in cash, and many of the ones whom are being paid via paychecks, are providing false documentation and ID's to their employers.

Regarding that other bold comment, I believe that every job in the US would be filled by Americans or legal immigrants if the jobs paid enough. ;-) Perhaps dishwashers and lawn care jobs warrant more pay. :idontno:

wow. that's the truth right there! and by the way, since our government says it 'CANNOT AFFORD TO ENFORCE IMMIGRATION LAWS OR OUR BORDERS' how is it they can afford to enforce tax laws? i mean there are 300 million people in this country they can police for tax purposes, but they can't tell us where 20 million illegal immigrants are? you don't have to be a braintrust to see which is the bigger job. i guess it just depends on your priorities and your honesty.

p.s. american seniors are going to need those minimum wage jobs in 2010 when the deal bush signed with mexico goes into effect. the deal? it was signed in 2004...when nobody was looking...mexican citizens will legally have the right to social security benefits despite not paying into it. good luck getting the money you need during your "golden years".

Great post! I definitely agree that we should ENFORCE our laws before making new ones and that some people treat illegal aliens as a new slave class - easy to exploit because they have no legal redress.