Race - sick of the nonsense

The reason the tv is croweded with poor blacks is because those are the people that live there, and didn't get out of town when they knew what was coming.

Sure, there are many people who did not leave town when warned. Some had a choice while others did not. My understanding is that people were told to go to the SuperDome where they would be bussed out, PRIOR to Katrina's arrival. Many people who are stranded, did not have cars, money, etc to escape the wrath of Katrina. Tourists were stranded without a plane to fly out on. All rental cars were taken. The only way out for so many people were the buses which were promised. If that is true, the Mayor abandoned all of those people, and left them to die, IMHO.

I don't like having the federal government messing around in state affairs, either, (believe me I DON'T like it), but in this case, a week later, the situation still not in hand, I think it's time (past time) for the governor to put the politics aside and ask them to come in.

Just my opinion.

I don't like having the federal government messing around in state affairs, either, (believe me I DON'T like it), but in this case, a week later, the situation still not in hand, I think it's time (past time) for the governor to put the politics aside and ask them to come in.

Just my opinion.

The crazy thing is that if the Fed's went in and stepped on toes in order to save the lives of its citizens and guests, when local gov't would not do so, the focus would quickly shift from the disaster and rescue to the Fed Govt taking over State's rights. There would be no other story for the next 12 months at least.

.... My understanding is that people were told to go to the SuperDome where they would be bussed out, PRIOR to Katrina's arrival. .... The only way out for so many people were the buses which were promised. If that is true, the Mayor abandoned all of those people, and left them to die, IMHO.

If you mean that there would be an evacuation prior to the storm, no. No one was told anything of the sort. The SuperDome was the shelter of last resort. You ride out the storm there. You were instructed to bring a five day supply of food and water.

Many, many people ignored that option. If you are on your roof (or floating in the attic) you did not evacuated to the SuperDome. Only 9k people did go there.

The plan would have been--once Katrina left, send buses in to get the evacuees out. The mass panic & anarchy (and lack of government response) that immediately ensued prevented that.

We had always been told that if we rode it out and this happened (and it was predicted) we would be left to die. Period I am amazed by the number of people who had no plan whatsoever, but given the NOLA public schools in hindsight am not surprised.

I don't have an opinion on the racial issue yet, although certainly there are lots of questions of race going on. The local government is and has been completely black for years. The violence you have heard about is black on black violence (a constant problem in NOLA). But, I am flummoxed over the federal government response. This wouldn't have happened in FL. Doesn't mean I am of the view expressed on tv, although I respect his right to say it.

The tvs are not showing the harm to white folk. The area most affected by the 17th street canal levee break is completely white and middle to upper middle class. Every house there has been destroyed (we know several people) and I have no doubt there are many bodies floating around in attics

Before pointing fingers at LA please consider the the LA nat'l guard is in Iraq.

All I know is that the incompetence at all or whatever levels of government has turned a three week exile (even after the levee break) into a complete freaking nightmare.

My thoughts today on the racism discussion are these. The rescue now seems to be going very efficiently (and for the most part compassionately from what one sees on the news) and it is organized. The big question in the future will be, "why did it take so long to get the rescue moving quickly, especially in a nation that is known to be a 'superpower' and that had full knowledge that hurricanes could hit a place like NO"?

There will be many questions asked and lessons learned that will be related to race/class/etc. Smart decision-makers won't avoid asking tough questions about race/class, nor will they ask the questions with answers already prepared based on their own beliefs (they'll look for facts/data). One lesson learned already is that at a time filled with such emotion and human loss, even the perception of racism/classism, etc., needs to be managed (people respond to perceptions as much as reality) when the victims (at least in NO) are primarily from one race/class.

But for now, I think this is the time to focus on rescuing everyone possible, provide whatever support can be offered in any way from however far away from the hurricane-hit areas, and not lose focus through political discussions until after all the people have been saved (unless those political discussions help to save more people, though this doesn't seem to be the case right now) and NO and other areas are well on their way to being cleaned. That's when citizens, politicians, and decision-makers will have the time, data (one needs data/facts to have reasonable discussions of race), and perspective that will help them reflect about lessons learned and plan for the future.

Paula - thank you for your wise words. we need to focus on what needs to be done now, and much will be learned now and later from the mistakes made on all levels.

Leaders (local and federal) have had to truly reinvent emergency response strategies - what they know of disaster response/preparedness does not apply here - and it will take a massive team effort from local to federal leaders (and in this case local/state leadership is entirely too limited for many reasons, and it is necessary for FEMA and the federal govt to assume responsibility - for they have the required resources). I believe that no one was prepared for such a large-scale disaster, and that our leaders are doing their absolute best to respond in unbelievable circumstances. They are making the necessary adjustments to their response efforts - though its frustrating for those of us watching it take so much time. But they are doing it.

Racism? I would like to say it isn't so, but I just don't know. It's kind of an ingrained thing in our society, and we don't even realize the extent of it... The African Americans who have spent a week in New Orleans may feel that they have been treated such because of their status/race, and who could blame them for that? They are desperate, they are tired, they are doing their best to survive.

My heart goes out to every single person involved - victims, leaders and emergency responders. They are all doing their best.

Thanks, Tootsie. Discussions about race are often very touchy. What is needed right now is not divisiveness, but tremendous good will, compassion, and people listening to each other rather than being suspicious of each other. We can figure out the human dynamics (for better and worse) once the worst of the rescues and clean-up is over and learn from it for next time (as well as learn from it so we'll be prepared should such a disaster happen in SoWal in terms of how we treat everyone and how we respond quickly and decisively).

Travel2much is correct. They were told to bring food and water for 5 days. I wonder how many paid for flood insurance. knowing that they live in a bowl.

Travel2much is correct. They were told to bring food and water for 5 days. I wonder how many paid for flood insurance. knowing that they live in a bowl.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that this statement is applicable to anything going on in New Orleans at this point, and is incredibly insensitive.

Yes, it's sad how the liberals take every tragedy and use it for political hay.

Am I the only one here who once lived paycheck-to-paycheck?
When you are living hand-to-mouth you might not have a lot of extras--let alone flood insurance. If you are ill and living in a nursing home, no matter what your color, gathering 5 days of food might not be within your ability.

This is a case of liberals making political hay? Sheppard Smith at Fox News (not a media outlet known for liberalism) seems pretty exasperated these days.


did NOLA have to happen

".. after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars.

In terms of race, maybe some good will come from this disaster. The article below has an upbeat ending.
Katrina prompts questions of race in U.S.

Article by Charles A. Walters

It has taken four long days for state and federal officials to figure out how to deal with the disaster in New Orleans. I can't blame them, because it has also taken me four long days to figure out what is going on there. The reason is that the events there make no sense if you think that we are confronting a natural disaster.

If this is just a natural disaster, the response for public officials is obvious: you bring in food, water, and doctors; you send transportation to evacuate refugees to temporary shelters; you send engineers to stop the flooding and rebuild the city's infrastructure. For journalists, natural disasters also have a familiar pattern: the heroism of ordinary people pulling together to survive; the hard work and dedication of doctors, nurses, and rescue workers; the steps being taken to clean up and rebuild.

Public officials did not expect that the first thing they would have to do is to send thousands of armed troops in armored vehicle, as if they are suppressing an enemy insurgency. And journalists--myself included--did not expect that the story would not be about rain, wind, and flooding, but about rape, murder, and looting.

But this is not a natural disaster. It is a man-made disaster.

The man-made disaster is not an inadequate or incompetent response by federal relief agencies, and it was not directly caused by Hurricane Katrina. This is where just about every newspaper and television channel has gotten the story wrong.

The man-made disaster we are now witnessing in New Orleans did not happen over the past four days. It happened over the past four decades. Hurricane Katrina merely exposed it to public view.

The man-made disaster is the welfare state.

For the past few days, I have found the news from New Orleans to be confusing. People were not behaving as you would expect them to behave in an emergency--indeed; they were not behaving as they have behaved in other emergencies. That is what has shocked so many people: they have been saying that this is not what we expect from America. In fact, it is not even what we expect from a Third World country.

When confronted with a disaster, people usually rise to the occasion. They work together to rescue people in danger, and they spontaneously organize to keep order and solve problems. This is especially true in America. We are an enterprising people, used to relying on our own initiative rather than waiting around for the government to take care of us. I have seen this a hundred times, in small examples (a small town whose main traffic light had gone out, causing ordinary citizens to get out of their cars and serve as impromptu traffic cops, directing cars through the intersection) and large ones (the spontaneous response of New Yorkers to September 11).

So what explains the chaos in New Orleans?

To give you an idea of the magnitude of what is going on, here is a description from a Washington Times story:

"Storm victims are raped and beaten; fights erupt with flying fists, knives and guns; fires are breaking out; corpses litter the streets; and police and rescue helicopters are repeatedly fired on.
"The plea from Mayor C. Ray Nagin came even as National Guardsmen poured in to restore order and stop the looting, carjackings and gunfire....

"Last night, Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco said 300 Iraq-hardened Arkansas National Guard members were inside New Orleans with shoot-to-kill orders.

"'These troops are...under my orders to restore order in the streets, she said. They have M-16s, and they are locked and loaded. These troops know how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing to do so if necessary and I expect they will."

The reference to Iraq is eerie. The photo that accompanies this article shows National Guard troops, with rifles and armored vests, riding on an armored vehicle through trash-strewn streets lined by a rabble of squalid, listless people, one of whom appears to be yelling at them. It looks exactly like a scene from Sadr City in Baghdad.

What explains bands of thugs using a natural disaster as an excuse for an orgy of looting, armed robbery, and rape? What causes unruly mobs to storm the very buses that have arrived to evacuate them, causing the drivers to drive away, frightened for their lives? What causes people to attack the doctors trying to treat patients at the Super Dome?

Why are people responding to natural destruction by causing further destruction? Why are they attacking the people who are trying to help them?

My wife, Sherri, figured it out first, and she figured it out on a sense-of-life level. While watching the coverage last night on Fox News Channel, she told me that she was getting a familiar feeling. She studied architecture at the Illinois Institute of Chicago, which is located in the South Side of Chicago just blocks away from the Robert Taylor Homes, one of the largest high-rise public housing projects in America. "The projects," as they were known, were infamous for uncontrollable crime and irremediable squalor. (They have since, mercifully, been demolished.)

What Sherri was getting from last night's television coverage was a whiff of the sense of life of "the projects." Then the "crawl"--the informational phrases flashed at the bottom of the screen on most news channels--gave some vital statistics to confirm this sense: 75% of the residents of New Orleans had already evacuated before the hurricane, and of the 300,000 or so who remained, a large number were from the city's public housing projects. Jack Wakeland then gave me an additional, crucial fact: early reports from CNN and Fox indicated that the city had no plan for evacuating all of the prisoners in the city's jails--so they just let many of them loose. There is no doubt a significant overlap between these two populations--that is, a large number of people in the jails used to live in the housing projects, and vice versa.

There were many decent, innocent people trapped in New Orleans when the deluge hit--but they were trapped alongside large numbers of people from two groups: criminals--and wards of the welfare state, people selected, over decades, for their lack of initiative and self-induced helplessness. The welfare wards were a mass of sheep--on whom the incompetent administration of New Orleans unleashed a pack of wolves.

All of this is related, incidentally, to the apparent incompetence of the city government, which failed to plan for a total evacuation of the city, despite the knowledge that this might be necessary. But in a city corrupted by the welfare state, the job of city officials is to ensure the flow of handouts to welfare recipients and patronage to political supporters--not to ensure a lawful, orderly evacuation in case of emergency.

No one has really reported this story, as far as I can tell. In fact, some are already actively distorting it, blaming President Bush, for example, for failing to personally ensure that the Mayor of New Orleans had drafted an adequate evacuation plan. The worst example is an execrable piece from the Toronto Globe and Mail, by a supercilious Canadian who blames the chaos on American "individualism." But the truth is precisely the opposite: the chaos was caused by a system that was the exact opposite of individualism.

What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the welfare state. What we consider "normal" behavior in an emergency is behavior that is normal for people who have values and take the responsibility to pursue and protect them. People with values respond to a disaster by fighting against it and doing whatever it takes to overcome the difficulties they face. They don't sit around and complain that the government hasn't taken care of them. They don't use the chaos of a disaster as an opportunity to prey on their fellow men.

But what about criminals and welfare parasites? Do they worry about saving their houses and property? They don't, because they don't own anything. Do they worry about what is going to happen to their businesses or how they are going to make a living? They never worried about those things before. Do they worry about crime and looting? But living off of stolen wealth is a way of life for them.

The welfare state--and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages--is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting.

Am I the only one here who once lived paycheck-to-paycheck?
When you are living hand-to-mouth you might not have a lot of extras--let alone flood insurance. If you are ill and living in a nursing home, no matter what your color, gathering 5 days of food might not be within your ability.

This is a case of liberals making political hay? Sheppard Smith at Fox News (not a media outlet known for liberalism) seems pretty exasperated these days.


did NOLA have to happen

".. after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA dropped to a trickle. The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars.

In terms of race, maybe some good will come from this disaster. The article below has an upbeat ending.
Katrina prompts questions of race in U.S.

Good points CIL.

Article by Charles A. Walters

It has taken four long days for state and federal officials to figure out how to deal with the disaster in New Orleans. I can't blame them, because it has also taken me four long days to figure out what is going on there.

The above article has a few valid points (especially about how disastrous it is that convicted and unconvicted criminals ended up in this mix of people), but it is based on the author's assumptions, which come from watching television and then thinking really hard, and having a wife who has insight into the projects in Chicago. The author has no way of knowing how many people stuck in New Orleans were actually on "welfare," such as it is today. I do not claim to know anything about where New Orleans' poor derived their income, but based on what I understand about its culture, I would guess a few things:

-- Most had lived there all their lives, so there was a very high likelihood that extended families lived together in these tiny houses.

-- This being a city, many people did not have cars, especially the working poor. Even the tourists at the Ritz could not get cars to leave.

-- Many of them got their income from low-wage, tourist industry jobs, and used it to pay the rent on houses that also housed relatives (single moms, sickly parents and grandparents).

-- A reason so many did not know what to do after the storm was because they had no television, phones, or any kind of media, and could only sit there and behave "like sheep" because they were surrounded by water and had no idea where they were supposed to go next.

Race certainly played a role in this issue, but the problems in New Orleans appear to be very deeply ingrained and are not/were not easily resolvable. What was botched, at all governmental levels regardless of party, was the response, and I don't think that had to do with race as much as communication.

I think it is boggling insensitive, indeed racist, for the WT to refer to people caught up in this as welfare parasites. Even if on assistance, there are many many decent people who lives have been destroyed, who did not loot, who did not commit other crimes, who went through hell.

Many people do not understand the poverty of the deep south. You (the WT and those types) want us to have your chemical plants and dirty work, to pollute our air & water, to do all your scut work so you can have the wealth to live in your cushy white suburbs, where racial issues become a pleasant dinnertime abstraction, and speculate about poor evacuation plans and racial demographics. You deny us federal support due to our lack of political sway. (You can bet that if our governor were Bush's brother FEMA would have been in there on Monday). You are perfectly willing to go to whatever developing country you desire, spending trillions in weapons and devoting every single security resource the coutnry has, to democratize or christianize (or hopefully both) that country.

But, aid one of your own states or cities that is a majority black? Nah, that would be a "welfare state" and we couldn't do that.

Rant finished.

There certainly are alot of intelligent, thoughtful and passionate people on this board! :clap_1:

Happy Labor Day! (I think they should call it Relax Day.) While this has nothing to do with race, included in this discussion is talk of people without money to evacuate or purchase five days of food and water to weather the storm. I just want to point out that I know a small handfull of people living in SoWal whom I asked if they were planning to evacuate SoWal prior to Katrina's landfall. This was on Thur and Fri prior to Katrina's change in direction. She was predicted to hit us head on. These people said that they were staying put because they did not have enough money to go anywhere. These people work in the service industry around here, serving you food and pouring your drinks. Needless to say, I would have picked up every one of them on my way out of town if Katrina continued to head our way.

I know that you think that if they can afford to live in SoWal, they must have some money. Not true. They live paycheck to paycheck. Your tips are their only means of getting by, and these people greatly appreciate your generosity when you patronize the places in which they work. Without them, you would become one with Publix, the liquor store, and your kitchen when it comes to food and drink in SoWal.

Poverty hits everywhere, even the wealthiest of places.

I have read your posts and found many worthwhile points and many debates. Remember one thing.. this is a large city and in every city there are a thousand stories. For one, I have seen MANY news stories now of WHITE and BLACK people refusing to leave their homes, they simply will not leave having been given the grim outcome of what is to come. The bad element we see on the news right now was the bad element before this crisis...NOLA has/had a very high crime rate...and then you hear reports of inmates being let loose and all the guns being swiped out of the local WalMart?!!!! Once again, I'm not in favor of pointing fingers quite yet...but my $$$ is on the Mayor of NOLA.

Yes, it's sad how the liberals take every tragedy and use it for political hay.

Hello Wishly and welcome to the board

just curious as to what you are trying to say here....????

I have read your posts and found many worthwhile points and many debates. Remember one thing.. this is a large city and in every city there are a thousand stories. For one, I have seen MANY news stories now of WHITE and BLACK people refusing to leave their homes, they simply will not leave having been given the grim outcome of what is to come. The bad element we see on the news right now was the bad element before this crisis...NOLA has/had a very high crime rate...and then you hear reports of inmates being let loose and all the guns being swiped out of the local WalMart?!!!! Once again, I'm not in favor of pointing fingers quite yet...but my $$$ is on the Mayor of NOLA.

My understanding of the prisoners, is that they were evacuated prior to Katrina's arrival. Have you heard differently?

My understanding of the prisoners, is that they were evacuated prior to Katrina's arrival. Have you heard differently?

I must admit I read that in the Dallas paper this morning...don't know how completely accurate it was, I initially thought perhaps they let non-violent criminals out. But in that environment, probably most of the criminals were already on the street. Can anyone explain why the thugs would be shooting at rescuers and engineers? Is it a power thing? I can't see it being desperation...just doesn't fit in the rational mindset.

I must admit I read that in the Dallas paper this morning...don't know how completely accurate it was, I initially thought perhaps they let non-violent criminals out. But in that environment, probably most of the criminals were already on the street. Can anyone explain why the thugs would be shooting at rescuers and engineers? Is it a power thing? I can't see it being desperation...just doesn't fit in the rational mindset.

Who knows, maybe they are just thugs. On the other hand, maybe they were P.O'd that .... Who knows? I don't think thugs are rational beings anyway. There is not enough reporting to have a good, accurate, perspection of each of the many situtaions. Mostly, it is hearsay and speculation.

I think I am going to take SJ's advice to Relax. I have been watching FoxNews, CNN and ect. all week, discussing whose fault it maybe, grief stricken by all who were touched by Katrina and amazed at what a hurricane and flooding can do, but the one thing I'm proud of is how people are giving. Even people right here on this board opening your condos. I just thing it is awesome. :clap_1: :clap_1:
Okay maybe I should have just started a new thread. Sorry got off the subject of this thread.

I think I am going to take SJ's advice to Relax. I have been watching FoxNews, CNN and ect. all week, discussing whose fault it maybe, grief stricken by all who were touched by Katrina and amazed at what a hurricane and flooding can do, but the one thing I'm proud of is how people are giving. Even people right here on this board opening your condos. I just thing it is awesome. :clap_1: :clap_1:
Okay maybe I should have just started a new thread. Sorry got off the subject of this thread.

Going off subject is the name of the game around here! And your subject matter is fantastic...I have cut back on my TV viewing as well...it's just that right now things are changing so quickly and new problems keep arising...so many things I never could conceive in my overactive imagination. Some of the best medicine has been reading the stories of hope and the determination of the people.

Can anyone explain why the thugs would be shooting at rescuers and engineers? Is it a power thing? I can't see it being desperation...just doesn't fit in the rational mindset.

Might some of it be a protecting(or claiming?) their turf sort of thing? Obviously their thought processes aren't like yours or mine.

Thanks Tootsy. Well, what I'm trying to say is that liberals will take every tragedy as an oportunity to slam Bush/republicans. If Kerry were in office, the liberals would be saying how smooth everything is going in N.O. Just like when Clinton bombed the heck of Serbia because it was a small white Christian nation trying to save itself from the radical muslims. The liberals painted Mr. Clinton as some god. It's so stupid.