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What makes a terrorist?

6thGen avatar
Beach Fanatic
11,445 views
Not poverty. Not our support of Israel. Rather, suppression of civil liberties and political rights. Chickpea, here are your root causes, even though I know you won't read the book when it comes out.

Princeton Economist Says
Lack of Civil Liberties, Not
Poverty, Breeds Terrorism
July 5, 2007; Page A2
When Princeton economist Alan Krueger saw reports that seven of eight people arrested in the unsuccessful car bombings in Britain were doctors, he wasn't shocked. He wasn't even surprised.

"Each time we have one of these attacks and the backgrounds of the attackers are revealed, this should put to rest the myth that terrorists are attacking us because they are desperately poor," he says. "But this misconception doesn't die."

Less than a year after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, President Bush said, "We fight against poverty because hope is an answer to terror." A couple of months later, his wife, Laura, said, "Educated children are much more likely to embrace the values that defeat terror." Former World Bank President James Wolfensohn has argued, "The war on terrorism will not be won until we have come to grips with the problem of poverty, and thus the sources of discontent."

The analysis is plausible. It's appealing because it bolsters the case for the worthy goals of fighting poverty and ignorance. But systematic study -- to the extent possible -- suggests it's wrong.

"As a group, terrorists are better educated and from wealthier families than the typical person in the same age group in the societies from which they originate," Mr. Krueger said at the London School of Economics last year in a lecture soon to be published as a book, "What Makes a Terrorist?"

"There is no evidence of a general tendency for impoverished or uneducated people to be more likely to support terrorism or join terrorist organizations than their higher-income, better-educated countrymen," he said. The Sept. 11 attackers were relatively well-off men from a rich country, Saudi Arabia.

Mr. Krueger, 46 years old, is one of those academics whose research extends from the standard fare -- How much more do workers with education earn? What happens to employment when the minimum wage rises? -- to, well, cool stuff. Did Firestone factories produce shoddy tires during a period of labor unrest? (Yes) Are rich people really enjoying life more than the rest of us? (No) Are concert-ticket prices higher for female musicians than males? (Yes)

He began poking around this sordid subject a decade ago when he and a colleague found little connection between economic circumstances and the incidence of violent hate crimes in Germany. Among the statistical pieces of the puzzle a small band of academics have assembled since are these:

? Backgrounds of 148 Palestinian suicide bombers show they were less likely to come from families living in poverty and were more likely to have finished high school than the general population. Biographies of 129 Hezbollah shahids (martyrs) reveal they, too, are less likely to be from poor families than the Lebanese population from which they come. The same goes for available data about an Israeli terrorist organization, Gush Emunim, active in the 1980s.

? Terrorism doesn't increase in the Middle East when economic conditions worsen; indeed, there seems no link. One study finds the number of terrorist incidents is actually higher in countries that spend more on social-welfare programs. Slicing and dicing data finds no discernible pattern that countries that are poorer or more illiterate produce more terrorists. Examining 781 terrorist events classified by the U.S. State Department as "significant" reveals terrorists tend to come from countries distinguished by political oppression, not poverty or inequality.

? Public-opinion polls from Jordan, Morocco, Pakistan and Turkey find people with more education are more likely to say suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq are justified. Polls of Palestinians find no clear difference in support for terrorism as a means to achieve political ends between the most and least educated.


Data on which all this relies are hardly perfect: Terrorists don't fill out elaborate questionnaires. Better-off, better-educated individuals could be motivated if not by their own circumstances, then by the conditions of their impoverished countrymen. Interviews of terrorists in Pakistan by Harvard terrorism scholar Jessica Stern reveal recruiters there found the poorest neighborhoods to be the most fertile ground, particularly among those who feel Muslims are humiliated by the West. She says Mr. Krueger and like-minded scholars don't yet have enough evidence to prove anything. "We are only just beginning to do really serious large studies in terrorism," she says.

But the conventional wisdom that poverty breeds terrorism is backed by surprisingly little hard evidence. "The evidence is nearly unanimous in rejecting either material deprivation or inadequate education as an important cause of support for terrorism or of participation in terrorist activities," Mr. Krueger asserts. The 9/11 Commission stated flatly: Terrorism is not caused by poverty.

So what is the cause? Suppression of civil liberties and political rights, Mr. Krueger hypothesizes. "When nonviolent means of protest are curtailed," he says, "malcontents appear to be more likely to turn to terrorist tactics."

Which -- ironically, given that Mr. Krueger is no fan of the president's actual policies at home or abroad -- is close to Mr. Bush's rhetoric: "Liberty has got the capacity to change enemies into allies."

Write to David Wessel at capital@wsj.com, or chat with him about this column in his online forum.

Replies

297
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#77
I?m not backing off from the statement that poverty does not cause terrorism and that political and civil oppression are a root cause of terrorism.

Ah well and there we have the answer to my question-

.........because you are just going to default back to your standard "I said it, therefore it must be right argument."

Ok, now that we've disproven the 95% hypothesis, what else you got to base your argument on other than bravada?
kathydwells avatar
Darlene is my middle name, not my nickname
#78
Better than that -I will happily explain to you why you are crazy.

A scan of your link provided the following information:

1950?s ?The vast majority of incidents were perpetrated by the KKK against blacks ?not an example of a group who?s civil and political rights are being oppressed but ironically the opposite.

1960?s- 61% of incidents occur in the US and Canada, hardly hotbeds of civil and political oppression.

1970?s ? 52% of incidents were carried out by groups such as the Black Panthers, Basque Seperatists, etc who do not come from societies with repressive regimes.

1980?s- 42% of incidents do not involve groups who are being oppressed. (There is even one by the Animal Rights Brigade!)

1989- 1993- The vast majority of incidents were carried out by Drug Lords in Colombia.

1994-Present ? The percentage of incidents not associated with an oppressive regime skyrockets to 67% -mostly the result of continuing violence in Colombia, and violence against Buddhists (?) in Thailand.

?95% correlation. I'm not conceding a damn thing???. ?The other years I looked at were consistent with this year.?- 6thGen

How on earth are you going to salvage your argument when even your own 'supporting evidence? does not support your argument?

OH SNAP! :popcorn:
Smiling JOe avatar
SoWal Expert
#79
Uncle Timmy, have you ever thought about becoming a lawyer?
kathydwells avatar
Darlene is my middle name, not my nickname
#80
Uncle Timmy, have you ever thought about becoming a lawyer?

I think he needs to. :clap:

Edited

Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#81
Uncle Timmy, have you ever thought about becoming a lawyer?

Haha, would you guess I come from a family of opinionated Engineers and Lawyers?

Where do you think I learned to argue succinctly and methodically?

If you voice an opinion at our family table you had damn well be able to defend it.
30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#82
Uncle Timmy, have you ever thought about becoming a lawyer?

He does not want the pay cut:biggrin:
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#83
Internet Hero,
I'm busy right now but I'll brief you on this. First, if you don't believe there was civil oppression in the US in the 50s and 60s, I'll offer Exhibit A.






Not exactly civil freedom. Not ironic either, when the corrupt state is the one outsourcing terror, which you'd be arguing if this was any other topic. Same thing with the 70s, as there was still a ton of civil unrest at the time. I'd include conscription in oppression of freedoms as well, so again we were not the beacon of light at that time.

On Colombia, they are a relatively free society, but they aren't very strong on property rights, a key freedom, or freedom from corruption. As I've previously stated, I'm for the decriminalization of drugs, so it's not a hard argument to make to show that those committing the terrorist acts feel that their livelihood is being oppressed (pick up the second to last Driveby Truckers CD for a poetic take on the black market and oppression). I don't agree with them, but I don't agree with terrorism, either.

In the 80s, you've discounted attacks on free societies by those from oppressive governments. At a glance, I'm betting you didn't include PanAm 830, which was an attack on the US by a Jordanian, or any attacks on free societies by folks like Carlos the Jackal.

My point is that terrorists are more likely to be from oppressive regimes. Not necessarily attacking them.

Here's a better source I found along the way as well. No little flags.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/5902.htm

And another good article by Krueger.

http://chronicle.com/free/v49/i39/39b01001.htm
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#84
Internet Hero,
I'm busy right now but I'll brief you on this. First, if you don't believe there was civil oppression in the US in the 50s and 60s, I'll offer Exhibit A.

Oh 6thGen,

You are showing an example of civil and political rights oppression against blacks.

The majority of terrorist incidents listed in your source were by the KKK, not the oppressed ones. That is contrary to your argument.

If that was an intended Hail Mary to save your effort here at the end I'd say you lobbed it about 50 yards short.

And besides, by your assertion, it was a 95% correlation- looks like that was wrong and now you have 2 points that you need to conceed and admit error on. Spare us the anecdotal evidence, we need numbers.

I did warn you that sticking around would ojnly lead to further embarassment. Now you're deeper in the hole.
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#85
Oh 6thGen,

You are showing an example of civil and political rights oppression against blacks.

The majority of terrorist incidents listed in your source were by the KKK, not the oppressed ones. That is contrary to your argument.

If that was an intended Hail Mary to save your effort here at the end I'd say you lobbed it about 50 yards short.

And besides, by your assertion, it was a 95% correlation- looks like that was wrong and now you have 2 points that you need to conceed and admit error on. Spare us the anecdotal evidence, we need numbers.

I did warn you that sticking around would ojnly lead to further embarassment. Now you're deeper in the hole.

No, I'm showing that the US was not a free society at that time. When there isn't a free and fair system of justice, there is a vacuum that is sometimes filled with terrorism. I never said that it was a 95% correlation, I said that it was in 2007. I'm not conceding anything since you shift the argument every chance you get. You haven't conceded that oppressive states are a terrorism catalyst. You claim more illogical victory than an aging Ali.
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#86
I never said that it was a 95% correlation, I said that it was in 2007. I'm not conceding anything since you shift the argument every chance you get.

"95% correlation. I'm not conceding a damn thing"??. "The other years I looked at were consistent with this year."- 6thGen


My pointing out your contradictions does not constitute ?shifting the argument?.
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#87
No, I'm showing that the US was not a free society at that time. When there isn't a free and fair system of justice, there is a vacuum that is sometimes filled with terrorism.


Let?s just savor the absurdity of this position for a moment shall we...............................

....................just when you thought 6thGen logic couldn?t get any weirder.............

So you have unilaterally expanded the definition of civil and political oppression soooooooooo broad that now even the United States of America, in the 1960s and 70's constituted an oppressive society.

And conveniently, now that your definition of oppression is so loose we can now conclude that (surprise) -yes indeed! It is true! Almost every act of terrorism has sprung from oppression! Because oppression is almost universal!

What you failed to consider in your euphoric rush to save some sliver of rhetoric dignity here is that this argument is inherently self defeating.

If we simply expand the definition of poverty (from the original article) to the same degree you have done here with ?oppression? than we also find that yes, 95% of terrorists come from impoverished areas and therefore we need to reconsider the idea of poverty as the ?root cause? of terrorism. Since , as you state, we only need find a high correlation.

ie- If the KKK committed acts of terror against blacks because they lived in a generally oppressive society, then suicide bombers are committing terrorism because they too are living in a generally impoverished society.

Clearly poverty is not the ?root cause? of terrorism, and neither is civil and political oppression.

I am truly excited to see where your bizarre performance will take us next..................
savvytangerine avatar
Beach Fanatic
#88
:boxing: :popcorn:
Smiling JOe avatar
SoWal Expert
#89



Not exactly civil freedom. Not ironic either, when the corrupt state is the one outsourcing terror, which you'd be arguing if this was any other topic. Same thing with the 70s, as there was still a ton of civil unrest at the time. I'd include conscription in oppression of freedoms as well, so again we were not the beacon of light at that time.

Did I miss something in your original points? I thought you were stating that the terrorists were the people being oppressed. :idontno: In the photo above, the terrorists were the oppressors, as was the KKK.

I asked you to explain why the terrorists living in oppression, would chose to terrorize countries/people from other places, rather than terrorizing the people or gov't which oppressed them. I think your point of the photo shows that my question has merit, and makes the data in the article in post #1 look invalid.
Smiling JOe avatar
SoWal Expert
#90
"never trust whitey." -- The Jerk
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#91
Let me make this clear, Timmy. Oppression of political and civil freedoms are a root cause of terrorism. I never said that poverty was, and that was the point of the article. You conveniently ignore every point I make and you find things to nitpick rather than addressing the actual premise. I also never stated that there would be a 95% correlation over several years, I said that there was the overwhelming correlation in 2007. American blacks had their civil rights acts oppressed in the 50s, 60s, etc. and the violence carried over into the 70s with the Black Panthers. The seed had been planted. The Klan in the South was often an arm of the local law enforcement in the South, with several police chiefs, sheriffs and deputies wearing white hoods. There was no fair system of justice, and from this vacuum, there wasn?t a system in place to contain and keep in check the savage acts that occurred during that time period. Hobbes, Locke, Hume, Rousseau, Smith, Paine, Burke, Tocqueville, Hayek, Friedman and countless others understood that an established justice system, an established rule of law was paramount to liberty, and a cornerstone of liberty along with property rights and freedom of speech. When those trusted with that responsibility are corrupt, when they are the ones illegally inciting terror, and when there is no one was there to keep their immoral, illegal and barbaric impulses in check, the foundation for liberty crumbled.

You?ve managed to convince an overwhelmingly liberal internet message board that the absence of political freedom and civil liberty has nothing to do with terrorism by using clever fallacies. Congratulations. If the gloves don?t fit, you must acquit.
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#92
Let me make this clear, Timmy. I also never stated that there would be a 95% correlation over several years, I said that there was the overwhelming correlation in 2007.
.

Sigh?????

Ok I?ll just keep wacking this over your head until you fess up to your contradiction.

"95% correlation. I'm not conceding a damn thing"??. "The other years I looked at were consistent with this year."- 6thGen

And now?..

?I also never stated that there would be a 95% correlation over several years, I said that there was the overwhelming correlation in 2007.?
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#93
You conveniently ignore every point I make and you find things to nitpick rather than addressing the actual premise.
.

Well wouldn?t that because your ?points? were submitted, by you, to bolster your premise?

And by ignoring, do you mean for example like when I tore apart your list of terrorist incidents to disprove your point regarding a 95% correlation?

Of course I?m nitpicking your points because when I disprove them, then I disprove your primary assertion, that civil and political oppression is the root cause of terrorism.
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#94
You?ve managed to convince an overwhelmingly liberal internet message board that the absence of political freedom and civil liberty has nothing to do with terrorism by using clever fallacies.

Now, now 6thGen; anyone can go back and read my position on this one.

?Political oppression is not necessarily a cataylist.?-Uncle Timmy

?Not necessarily? is a long way from ?nothing to do with? ?but let?s all note how you?ve tried to put words in my mouth.

Everyone can also see what you are attempting to do here; if you can shift the argument from proving civil and political oppression is the root cause of terrorism and onto ?Uncle Timmy says that the absence of political and civil liberty has nothing to do with terrorism? you will be able to demonstrate that there is indeed a frequent connection and therefore you can claim victory and scurry the hell outta this thread before you endure anymore embarrassment.

The problem is, of course, that you have invented a boogieman to fight. If you want to end the embarrassment ?concede the point that ?civil and political oppression is the root cause of terrorism.?
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#95
Well wouldn?t that because your ?points? were submitted, by you, to bolster your premise?

And by ignoring, do you mean for example like when I tore apart your list of terrorist incidents to disprove your point regarding a 95% correlation?

Of course I?m nitpicking your points because when I disprove them, then I disprove your primary assertion, that civil and political oppression is the root cause of terrorism.

No, you've disproved that the rest of the years didn't show as strong of a correlation as 2007. You also faulted there since you didn't look at the terrorists' country of origin. And again, there was a 95% correlation in 2007, so I'm not conceding a damn thing, but I never said that it was a 95% correlation in other years, I said that other years were consistent, meaning they consistently show a correlation, not necessarily as strong.

The fact that you make an incredible jump by "proving" that the correlation wasn't as strong in other years to your premise that it doesn't at all correlate, and has nothing to do with it shows how intellectually bankrupt you are and how incredibly weak your argument is.
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#96
Now, now 6thGen; anyone can go back and read my position on this one.

?Political oppression is not necessarily a cataylist.?-Uncle Timmy

?Not necessarily? is a long way from ?nothing to do with? ?but let?s all note how you?ve tried to put words in my mouth.

Everyone can also see what you are attempting to do here; if you can shift the argument from proving civil and political oppression is the root cause of terrorism and onto ?Uncle Timmy says that the absence of political and civil liberty has nothing to do with terrorism? you will be able to demonstrate that there is indeed a frequent connection and therefore you can claim victory and scurry the hell outta this thread before you endure anymore embarrassment.

The problem is, of course, that you have invented a boogieman to fight. If you want to end the embarrassment ?concede the point that ?civil and political oppression is the root cause of terrorism.?

How many times can you respond to one post? I'm not conceding anything that I've demonstrated. I've taken apart your assertion that the 60s and 70s were not oppressive in the US. You ignored that. I've consistently demonstrated that civil and political oppression is a root cause of terrorism, even using your own examples of the Black Panthers and the Klan, you've just chosen to ignore it. I'll be out the rest of the day, and have company this weekend, so feel free to reply to these posts as often as you like and be sure to use plenty of fallacies to demonstrate your lack of a point. It's not hard to convince a sidewalk alumnus of The University of Alabama who is already predisposed to your line of thinking that you are right when you resort to such tactics, and that is clearly the barometer you are shooting for.
Mango avatar
SoWal Insider
#97
Let me make this clear, Timmy. Oppression of political and civil freedoms are a root cause of terrorism. I never said that poverty was, and that was the point of the article.

You’ve managed to convince an overwhelmingly liberal internet message board that the absence of political freedom and civil liberty has nothing to do with terrorism by using clever fallacies. Congratulations. If the gloves don’t fit, you must acquit.

No, you've managed to prove not only in this forum, but in others as well that you speak with a closed and uninformed mind. You told a poster facing foreclosure that they should talk to the Bank directly, that having an attorney call will incite hostility, making an assumption that the defaulter will know what to say and how to protect themselves.

You are again making an assumption that all acts of terrorism are rooted only from political and civil oppression.

I have news for you. Even all the so called "experts" do not know the answers as to what the "root" causes are terrorism are.
There is no neat little package that so called experts can wrap a terrorist in, nor is any one definition of a terrorist the same.

I suggest you take a look at this compilation of sources and small narratives of these sources before you make a head strong decision about your assumptions based on one article or articles you are fed.

This book was given to me after 9/11
Understanding Terrorism
Psychosocial Roots, Consequences, and Interventions
by Fathali M. Moghaddam and Anthony J. Marsella
American Psychological Association, 2004
Review by Roderick Nicholls, Ph.D. on May 6th 2004
Volume: 8, Number: 19

The Psychology of the Terrorist Mind
An Essay filled with valuable endnotes with sources.

There is a reason why a$$ is in the word assumption.

Edited

Smiling JOe avatar
SoWal Expert
#98
I still have trouble understanding the correlation of oppression and terrorism as it is today. When I look at the Klan, historically, they were the ones committing the acts of terror. There were many peaceful (fearing) black people during that time. Yes, groups like the Black Panthers resorted to violence, but I think they were still the ones being oppressed, and got the worst end of the stick when it came to terrorism by the KKK.

Today, if we look at Al Qaeda being the oppressors, they are oppressing the people of Iraq, yet the Iraqi people have not taken to terrorism against their oppressors, like you say the Black Panthers did.

I see the comparison as being a little off target. IMO, it seems that the oppressors are more likely to be committing the acts of terror, keeping the people oppressed and scared to stand up and fight back. To say that oppression causes terrorism is not right, as I see it. I think it might be more accurate to say that oppressors keep the population oppressed by committing acts of terrorism. I think there is a great difference between the two ideas.
30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#99
Could I float a theory that maybe 'group A' commits an act of terrorism on 'group B' simply because 'group B' simply pisses off 'group A' for some reason or another;further, 'group B' may never be able to understand fully what they did to irritate the 'A's' to such a degree. :idontno:
Smiling JOe avatar
SoWal Expert
#100
Could I float a theory that maybe 'group A' commits an act of terrorism on 'group B' simply because 'group B' simply pisses off 'group A' for some reason or another;further, 'group B' may never be able to understand fully what they did to irritate the 'A's' to such a degree. :idontno:
Is Punzy :whack: you again?
30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#101
Is Punzy :whack: you again?

You got to fight the power, brother

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