Not poverty. Not our support of Israel. Rather, suppression of civil liberties and political rights. Chickpea, here are your root causes, even though I know you won't read the book when it comes out.
Princeton Economist Says
Lack of Civil Liberties, Not
Poverty, Breeds Terrorism
July 5, 2007; Page A2
When Princeton economist Alan Krueger saw reports that seven of eight people arrested in the unsuccessful car bombings in Britain were doctors, he wasn't shocked. He wasn't even surprised.
"Each time we have one of these attacks and the backgrounds of the attackers are revealed, this should put to rest the myth that terrorists are attacking us because they are desperately poor," he says. "But this misconception doesn't die."
Less than a year after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, President Bush said, "We fight against poverty because hope is an answer to terror." A couple of months later, his wife, Laura, said, "Educated children are much more likely to embrace the values that defeat terror." Former World Bank President James Wolfensohn has argued, "The war on terrorism will not be won until we have come to grips with the problem of poverty, and thus the sources of discontent."
The analysis is plausible. It's appealing because it bolsters the case for the worthy goals of fighting poverty and ignorance. But systematic study -- to the extent possible -- suggests it's wrong.
"As a group, terrorists are better educated and from wealthier families than the typical person in the same age group in the societies from which they originate," Mr. Krueger said at the London School of Economics last year in a lecture soon to be published as a book, "What Makes a Terrorist?"
"There is no evidence of a general tendency for impoverished or uneducated people to be more likely to support terrorism or join terrorist organizations than their higher-income, better-educated countrymen," he said. The Sept. 11 attackers were relatively well-off men from a rich country, Saudi Arabia.
Mr. Krueger, 46 years old, is one of those academics whose research extends from the standard fare -- How much more do workers with education earn? What happens to employment when the minimum wage rises? -- to, well, cool stuff. Did Firestone factories produce shoddy tires during a period of labor unrest? (Yes) Are rich people really enjoying life more than the rest of us? (No) Are concert-ticket prices higher for female musicians than males? (Yes)
He began poking around this sordid subject a decade ago when he and a colleague found little connection between economic circumstances and the incidence of violent hate crimes in Germany. Among the statistical pieces of the puzzle a small band of academics have assembled since are these:
? Backgrounds of 148 Palestinian suicide bombers show they were less likely to come from families living in poverty and were more likely to have finished high school than the general population. Biographies of 129 Hezbollah shahids (martyrs) reveal they, too, are less likely to be from poor families than the Lebanese population from which they come. The same goes for available data about an Israeli terrorist organization, Gush Emunim, active in the 1980s.
? Terrorism doesn't increase in the Middle East when economic conditions worsen; indeed, there seems no link. One study finds the number of terrorist incidents is actually higher in countries that spend more on social-welfare programs. Slicing and dicing data finds no discernible pattern that countries that are poorer or more illiterate produce more terrorists. Examining 781 terrorist events classified by the U.S. State Department as "significant" reveals terrorists tend to come from countries distinguished by political oppression, not poverty or inequality.
? Public-opinion polls from Jordan, Morocco, Pakistan and Turkey find people with more education are more likely to say suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq are justified. Polls of Palestinians find no clear difference in support for terrorism as a means to achieve political ends between the most and least educated.
Data on which all this relies are hardly perfect: Terrorists don't fill out elaborate questionnaires. Better-off, better-educated individuals could be motivated if not by their own circumstances, then by the conditions of their impoverished countrymen. Interviews of terrorists in Pakistan by Harvard terrorism scholar Jessica Stern reveal recruiters there found the poorest neighborhoods to be the most fertile ground, particularly among those who feel Muslims are humiliated by the West. She says Mr. Krueger and like-minded scholars don't yet have enough evidence to prove anything. "We are only just beginning to do really serious large studies in terrorism," she says.
But the conventional wisdom that poverty breeds terrorism is backed by surprisingly little hard evidence. "The evidence is nearly unanimous in rejecting either material deprivation or inadequate education as an important cause of support for terrorism or of participation in terrorist activities," Mr. Krueger asserts. The 9/11 Commission stated flatly: Terrorism is not caused by poverty.
So what is the cause? Suppression of civil liberties and political rights, Mr. Krueger hypothesizes. "When nonviolent means of protest are curtailed," he says, "malcontents appear to be more likely to turn to terrorist tactics."
Which -- ironically, given that Mr. Krueger is no fan of the president's actual policies at home or abroad -- is close to Mr. Bush's rhetoric: "Liberty has got the capacity to change enemies into allies."
Write to David Wessel at capital@wsj.com, or chat with him about this column in his online forum.
Replies
297Meow
Did you say "hijack"
It's more like Hijerk!

Sorry...carry on.
Edited
SoWal Expert
Sorry Uncle Timmy.
I will try to behave from now on.
I will try to behave from now on.
Darlene is my middle name, not my nickname
Hey guys,
I am having fun with this thread. (And put a fair amount of effort into it). Lets not hijack it off to oblivion. Keep the comments on subject please.
Uncle Timmy, here let me bop those hijackers for you.
And I haven't gotten to say this in a LONG time.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<To lounge with you hijackers.
I believe your effort has paid off Uncle Timmy. I am having funn reading this thread as well. Even though I am from ALABAMA, all your arguments with the thread starter make perfect sense to me!
Beach Fanatic
Sorry Uncle Timmy, JDarg and I were just playin' while you and your friend weren't around. 

Beach Fanatic
Uncle Timmy does not need any help from anyone but calling him intellectually bankrupt is laughable. I would think that 99.99% of people on this board would find his arguments sound, intelligent and well reasoned (regardless of whether or not they concur with his views and opinions).
Thanks Chickpea,
I have to admit that I wasn't sure what you were quoting at first and had to go back and quickly re-scan some of the posts to find it, ha.
Because EVERY 6thGen post is laced with gobs of mindless posturing I have adapted to simply glossing over it.....I hadn't noticed it before.
Considering the opinion is coming from someone who is suggesting that the KKK terror was the result of the US having been an oppressive regime in the 60's and 70's, isn't likely to bother me.
SoWal Expert
Sorry Uncle Timmy, JDarg and I were just playin' while you and your friend weren't around.
Yeah, we were keeping the thread bumped up and all that....
to youBeach Fanatic
Yeah, we were keeping the thread bumped up and all that....to you
That's right. We were like the SuperBowl half time show. Without the Janet Jackson breast exposure of course.
Beach Fanatic
As I stated earlier, this thread has become as much about exposing flawed thinking and how it can reinforce erroneous opinions, rather then a discussion of the stated subject, but I think we?ve let the charade run on enough to make that point.
So lets restore some measure of sanity to this thread, and get it back on track, by actually referencing some of the terms being throw around here rather than simply re-defining them to fit an argument.
From 6thGen?s favorite source Wikipedia:
Root Cause:
A root cause is an initiating cause of a casual chain which leads to an outcome or effect of interest. Commonly, root cause is used to describe the depth in the casual chain where an intervention could reasonably be implemented to change performance and prevent an undesirable outcome.
The term root cause has been used in professional journals as early as 1905, but the lack of a widely accepted definition after all this time indicates that there are significantly different interpretations of exactly what constitutes a root cause.
The two biggest differences in viewpoint regard the possibility of an outcome having more than one root cause.
Oppression:
Oppression is the negative outcome experienced by people targeted by the cruel exercise of power in a society or social group. It is particularly closely associated with nationalism and derived social systems, wherein identity is built by antagonism to the other. The term itself derives from the idea of being "weighted down."
The term oppression is primarily used to describe how a certain group is being kept down by unjust use of force, authority or societal norms.
Terrorism:
The United States has defined terrorism under the Federal Criminal Code. Chapter 113B of Part I of Title 18 of the United States Code defines terrorism and lists the crimes associated with terrorism -
In Section 2331 of Chapter 113b, terrorism is defined as:
So lets restore some measure of sanity to this thread, and get it back on track, by actually referencing some of the terms being throw around here rather than simply re-defining them to fit an argument.
From 6thGen?s favorite source Wikipedia:
Root Cause:
A root cause is an initiating cause of a casual chain which leads to an outcome or effect of interest. Commonly, root cause is used to describe the depth in the casual chain where an intervention could reasonably be implemented to change performance and prevent an undesirable outcome.
The term root cause has been used in professional journals as early as 1905, but the lack of a widely accepted definition after all this time indicates that there are significantly different interpretations of exactly what constitutes a root cause.
The two biggest differences in viewpoint regard the possibility of an outcome having more than one root cause.
Oppression:
Oppression is the negative outcome experienced by people targeted by the cruel exercise of power in a society or social group. It is particularly closely associated with nationalism and derived social systems, wherein identity is built by antagonism to the other. The term itself derives from the idea of being "weighted down."
The term oppression is primarily used to describe how a certain group is being kept down by unjust use of force, authority or societal norms.
Terrorism:
The United States has defined terrorism under the Federal Criminal Code. Chapter 113B of Part I of Title 18 of the United States Code defines terrorism and lists the crimes associated with terrorism -
In Section 2331 of Chapter 113b, terrorism is defined as:
?activities that involve violent? or life-threatening acts? that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State and? appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and? (C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States? [or]? (C) occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States?"​
Beach Fanatic
Under such a definition of oppression, the following examples can not reasonably be considered oppressed.
ETA -The Basque Seperatist Group (post Franco Regime)
The IRA
Klu Klux Klan
Colombian Drug Lords
Timothy McVeigh
UniBomber
And many more..........and yet these are all terrorists (by the definition).
Furthermore, a Root Cause or causes (by definition) will have to be present in a vast majority, if not all, examples. Therefore, civil and political oppression cannot be the root cause of terrorism.
Terrorism simply exists in too many examples where no unjust use of force or cruel power has been applied by a government (oppression) to warrant a root cause.
Clearly, something else is triggering terrorism.
ETA -The Basque Seperatist Group (post Franco Regime)
The IRA
Klu Klux Klan
Colombian Drug Lords
Timothy McVeigh
UniBomber
And many more..........and yet these are all terrorists (by the definition).
Furthermore, a Root Cause or causes (by definition) will have to be present in a vast majority, if not all, examples. Therefore, civil and political oppression cannot be the root cause of terrorism.
Terrorism simply exists in too many examples where no unjust use of force or cruel power has been applied by a government (oppression) to warrant a root cause.
Clearly, something else is triggering terrorism.
Skunky
I think one could reasonably argue the IRA viewed itself as oppressed.
Beach Fanatic
Under such a definition of oppression, the following examples can not reasonably be considered oppressed.
ETA -The Basque Seperatist Group (post Franco Regime)
The IRA
Klu Klux Klan
Colombian Drug Lords
Timothy McVeigh
UniBomber
And many more..........and yet these are all terrorists (by the definition).
Furthermore, a Root Cause or causes (by definition) will have to be present in a vast majority, if not all, examples. Therefore, civil and political oppression cannot be the root cause of terrorism.
Terrorism simply exists in too many examples where no unjust use of force or cruel power has been applied by a government (oppression) to warrant a root cause.
Clearly, something else is triggering terrorism.
Based on your examples and other ones that exist, I believe that clearly there is no one thing triggering terrorism. Although we want it to be a nice and neat answer, I don't see how it would be unless it is something so broad that it doesn't matter and can't be "fixed" or used to stop future attacks.
Beach Fanatic
Based on your examples and other ones that exist, I believe that clearly there is no one thing triggering terrorism. Although we want it to be a nice and neat answer, I don't see how it would be unless it is something so broad that it doesn't matter and can't be "fixed" or used to stop future attacks.
Cha Ching! We have a winner!
I think it is clear that there is no one simple 'root cause' of terrorism. Terrorism is a complex issue and therefore must have multiple reasons as to why someone (or some group) turns to this tactic.
Terrorism, at it's most basic, is simply a tool afterall. A tool in which a very small and weak group can leverage it's power and influence most effectively.
I would be interested in seeing if someone could suggest multiple causes -all acting together to trigger terrorism.
Variable A + Variable B + Variable C = Terrorism
Hint: Each variable is going to have to be present in all (or close to) examples of terrorism. Which is my way of pre-empting considering 'civil and political oppression' as one of the variables.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised, however, to see that civil and political oppression is symptomatic (or concurrent) with one of the variables.
Beach Fanatic
I think one could reasonably argue the IRA viewed itself as oppressed.
I agree. One could certainly argue this point but it gets into 'what came first the chicken or the egg'. Did the IRA bombings trigger a security crisis in Northern Ireland or was it the reverse?
I'll be the first to concede that my history of 'The Troubles' (as the Brits call it) isn't as up to snuff as my mid-east history.
Either way, by the definition of oppression listed earlier - a government will use excessive, or cruel methods to suppress a group that is being oppressed. I'm fairly certain that even at the height of the Troubles, the British Gov't exercised its authority within the accepted boundaries of a civil western democracy.
SoWal Expert
I think it is clear that there is no one simple 'root cause' of terrorism. Terrorism is a complex issue and therefore must have multiple reasons as to why someone (or some group) turns to this tactic.
Pretty much sums up the topic for me! Amazing how pages of posts referencing odd statistics, articles, and wikipedia definitions can be boiled down to a couple lines of common sense :roll:.
Beach FanaticAuthor
OK, I'll admit that I envy your free time, since I got tied up in real work and entertaining real people, but are you still of the opinion that political and civil oppression is not a cataylist (sic)? Trying to catch up with your arguments on this thread reminds me of Clinton dissecting the meaning of "is".
SoWal Insider
OK, I'll admit that I envy your free time, since I got tied up in real work and entertaining real people, but are you still of the opinion that political and civil oppression is not a cataylist (sic)? Trying to catch up with your arguments on this thread reminds me of Clinton dissecting the meaning of "is".
Is that what they are calling conjugal visits now? tied up and entertaining people?
Edited
Beach Fanatic
OK, I'll admit that I envy your free time, since I got tied up in real work and entertaining real people, but are you still of the opinion that political and civil oppression is not a cataylist (sic)? Trying to catch up with your arguments on this thread reminds me of Clinton dissecting the meaning of "is".
6thgen -?Catalyst? does not equal ?root cause?.
Actually, this isn?t taking much time at this point because you have simply resorted to re-hashing your old argument.
And so here we go again???..(from earlier)
Now, now 6thGen; anyone can go back and read my position on this one.
?Political oppression is not necessarily a cataylist.?-Uncle Timmy
?Not necessarily? is a long way from ?nothing to do with? ?but let?s all note how you?ve tried to put words in my mouth.
Everyone can also see what you are attempting to do here; if you can shift the argument from proving civil and political oppression is the root cause of terrorism and onto ?Uncle Timmy says that the absence of political and civil liberty has nothing to do with terrorism? you will be able to demonstrate that there is indeed a frequent connection and therefore you can claim victory and scurry the hell outta this thread before you endure anymore embarrassment.
The problem is, of course, that you have invented a boogieman to fight. If you want to end the embarrassment ?concede the point that ?civil and political oppression is the root cause of terrorism.?
Beach FanaticAuthor
6thgen -?Catalyst? does not equal ?root cause?.
Actually, this isn?t taking much time at this point because you have simply resorted to re-hashing your old argument.
And so here we go again???..(from earlier)
Now, now 6thGen; anyone can go back and read my position on this one.
?Political oppression is not necessarily a cataylist.?-Uncle Timmy
?Not necessarily? is a long way from ?nothing to do with? ?but let?s all note how you?ve tried to put words in my mouth.
Everyone can also see what you are attempting to do here; if you can shift the argument from proving civil and political oppression is the root cause of terrorism and onto ?Uncle Timmy says that the absence of political and civil liberty has nothing to do with terrorism? you will be able to demonstrate that there is indeed a frequent connection and therefore you can claim victory and scurry the hell outta this thread before you endure anymore embarrassment.
The problem is, of course, that you have invented a boogieman to fight. If you want to end the embarrassment ?concede the point that ?civil and political oppression is the root cause of terrorism.?
I never said it was the root cause. I said it was a root cause. Do you still not believe that it is a catalyst?
Beach Fanatic
I never said it was the root cause. I said it was a root cause. Do you still not believe that it is a catalyst?
Well it took several pages of posting and repeatedly beating you over the head to get you to abandon (a defacto concession) your 95% correlation so I?m not surprised I?m going to have to wack you over the head with this point until it sinks in???..
?Political oppression is not necessarily a cataylist.?-Uncle Timmy
?Not necessarily? is a long way from ?not believe?. Nice attempt to shift the argument again there, 6th.
Regardless, whether you are trying to assert that it is a or one of the root causes does not alter the definition of root cause. Civil and political oppression is simply absent from too many examples of terrorism to be the or one of the root causes for terrorism.
Beach Fanatic
Is that what they are calling conjugal visits now? tied up and entertaining people?
Mango, thanks for lightening up this here thread!!!

Beach Fanatic
I'm with you anyday UT. 

Beach FanaticAuthor
Tell you what, you show me where I said that it was the only cause of terrorism, and I'll concede. I believe it is a primary cause, a root cause, but not the only cause. Like I never said that it would show 95% correlation, I never said it was the only cause, but you are doing well at disproving things I've never claimed.
Now, is it a catalyst?
Now, is it a catalyst?
Beach Fanatic
Tell you what, you show me where I said that it was the only cause of terrorism, and I'll concede. I believe it is a primary cause, a root cause, but not the only cause. Like I never said that it would show 95% correlation, I never said it was the only cause, but you are doing well at disproving things I've never claimed.
Now, is it a catalyst?
I really don?t care if you represented it was the root cause or one of many root causes. That is irrelevant to this debate because both are within the accepted definition of a ?root cause(s)?.
The issue here is that you keep offering your beliefs (see example above) that a catalyst or factor that is present in some examples of terrorism is somehow also a ?root cause?. It is not.
Poverty and hatred of Israel are also catalysts in some examples of terrorism, and yet you aren?t considering these to be ?root causes?.
Therefore your belief is incorrect.
Beach Fanatic
6thgen -?Catalyst? does not equal ?root cause?.
Actually, this is not correct.
A catalyst, or factor, that is only present sometimes; does not equal a 'root cause'.
See 6thGen, it is easy to go back and admit errors and move forward.
Beach FanaticAuthor
I really don?t care if you represented it was the root cause or one of many root causes. That is irrelevant to this debate because both are within the accepted definition of a ?root cause(s)?.
The issue here is that you keep offering your beliefs (see example above) that a catalyst or factor that is present in some examples of terrorism is somehow also a ?root cause?. It is not.
Poverty and hatred of Israel are also catalysts in some examples of terrorism, and yet you aren?t considering these to be ?root causes?.
Therefore your belief is incorrect.
It?s a common theme among the majority of examples. Demonstrating political and civil oppression isn?t a belief, it?s something that can be quantified, as are acts of terror. Again, you make a huge jump in your post. You say that I believe is that oppression is a root cause, or a catalyst, which is correct, and you say that my belief is wrong, which is incorrect. With this, you?ve jumped your statement that oppression is not necessarily a catalyst to oppression is not a catalyst. I?ll put the burden on you to explain why it?s an overwhelming theme when looking at examples of terrorism. As for poverty, the original author demonstrated that poverty is not a root cause, or a significant catalyst.
Checking your forum account
Please wait while we verify your forum account.
