Should we be like Saudis re Religious Freedom?

I know what you're saying, Lucifer; however, I think it's humans who are doing the poisoning. For people who believe in higher power regardless of faith, I love their passion. For those who don't believe, I respect their beliefs.

The quote referred to religion not faith. Faith is spiritural with a different meaning to each person. Religion is man made and usually has a book of rules believers must adhere to or there will grave consequences. Anyone who challenges the rules of your book with their own book must be feared and eliminated in the name of whatever deity is in your book.

Oh wow - I missed that. So there's an agenda to this. Not just a neighborhood mosque going up among churches and other places of worship.

So wrong then.

Thanks for pointing that out.

G

Show me a religion without an agenda

I wanted share my opinion but there's no need. Just read Shopper's posts.

This is a nonissue.

Now for a tangent.

9-11 was horrible. It changed this country in many ways. For a while it changed it for the better. It brought us together. But it also paved the way for the "war on terror"- our misguided, mismanaged, irrational, ineffective response to 9-11.

4,000+ Americans lost their lives that day. I do not believe 2 wars and bankrupting ourselves have honored them.

Show me a religion without an agenda

When you see a man with a great deal of religion displayed in his shop window, you may depend upon it, he keeps a very small stock of it within

Charles H Spurgeon

IDK or really care any more about this issue. I just know that religion can divide - and I also wonder if this whole thing is a huge display in a shop window .

I personally would love to have seen a Y go up a few blocks from ground zero. You know they changed their name from YMCA to "The Y" and one reason was to include all peoples. I like that! I'm a member of the Y

I wanted share my opinion but there's no need. Just read Shopper's posts.

This is a nonissue.

Now for a tangent.

9-11 was horrible. It changed this country in many ways. For a while it changed it for the better. It brought us together. But it also paved the way for the "war on terror"- our misguided, mismanaged, irrational, ineffective response to 9-11.

4,000+ Americans lost their lives that day. I do not believe 2 wars and bankrupting ourselves have honored them.

I'll say again that, for me too, Shopper's posts reflect my feelings exactly on this issue.

I agree also w/ Geo's post, w/ one exception:
Geo, you say "this is a nonissue."
I wish everyone saw it that way.
BUT since some, unfortunately, want to restrict freedom of religion, it's not a nonissue.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

Fair point but to clarify- I believe that debates involving freedom of speech, religion and the right to bear arms are usually pretty easy to settle.

Fair point but to clarify- I believe that debates involving freedom of speech, religion and the right to bear arms are usually pretty easy to settle.

I'm completely at a loss to know whether you mean this sarcastically or sincerely.

Do you mean that freedom of speech, religion & right to bear arms are so fundamental that there could never be any question but to grant these rights in a totally unrestricted manner?

OR

Do you mean that freedom of speech, religion & right to bear arms are rights so fraught w/ difficulties & nuances that we'll never stop arguing about them?

Let me answer this way. If I was a SC judge I would approach every case with the mindset that these freedoms reign and that the burden is on the nuiances/specific to prove otherwise.

"Fair and balanced" Fox panel of right-wing radio hosts agree: "[A]s Americans," we "say no" to NYC mosque

"Fair and balanced" Fox panel of right-wing radio hosts agree: "[A]s Americans," we "say no" to NYC mosque | Media Matters for America

How many of them actually live in that neighborhood? (Which is called little Syria because of how many Muslims live there BTW)

Or that city?

Or even that state?

Romney's Stand on Mosque (Courageous or Calculated?)

Romney's Stand on Mosque (Courageous or Calculated?)

Tricky Mitt: Romney's mosque calculations - Mitt Romney - Salon.com

"Fair and balanced" Fox panel of right-wing radio hosts agree: "[A]s Americans," we "say no" to NYC mosque

"Fair and balanced" Fox panel of right-wing radio hosts agree: "[A]s Americans," we "say no" to NYC mosque | Media Matters for America

Guess it's time to declare a national religion then

"Why should we as Americans have higher standards of religious liberty than Saudi Arabia? It makes no sense."
- Jon Stewart

I agree. I always thought it was supposed to be us leading them to our freedoms, rather than moving towards their restrictions.

The moment we, as Americans, try to mimic Saudia Arabia in any fashion, it will be a momentous step toward the downfall of this great democracy, the United States of America. Remember the Roman Empire?

You know what I would like to see?

Politicians worrying half as much about CARING for 9-11 responders and victims as they do about this stupid mosque.

While they were distracting us with the whole mosque issue they voted DOWN a bill to help 9-11 responders.

A bill that was financed (so no deficit additions) by closing a tax loophole that lets foreign companies dodge taxes.

Christopher Hitchens has the most well-reasoned opinion on this I've heard yet. Nothing like Gingrich and Palin pretending to express my sentiments. Link to article here, and excerpts below:

The dispute over the "Ground Zero mosque" is an object lesson in how not to resist intolerance. - By Christopher Hitchens - Slate Magazine


...Take, for example, the widely publicized opinion of Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League. Supporting those relatives of the 9/11 victims who have opposed Cordoba House, he drew a crass analogy with the Final Solution and said that, like Holocaust survivors, "their anguish entitles them to positions that others would categorize as irrational or bigoted." This cracked tune has been taken up by Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin, who additionally claim to be ventriloquizing the emotions of millions of Americans who did not suffer bereavement....

...Where to start with this part-pathetic and part-sinister appeal to demagogy? To begin with, it borrows straight from the playbook of Muslim cultural blackmail. Claim that something is "offensive," and it is as if the assertion itself has automatically become an argument. You are even allowed to admit, as does Foxman, that the ground for taking offense is "irrational and bigoted." But, hey?why think when you can just feel? The supposed "feelings" of the 9/11 relatives have already deprived us all of the opportunity to see the real-time footage of the attacks?a huge concession to the general dulling of what ought to be a sober and continuous memory of genuine outrage. Now extra privileges have to be awarded to an instant opinion-poll majority. Not only that, the president is urged to use his high office to decide questions of religious architecture! ...

You know what I would like to see?

Politicians worrying half as much about CARING for 9-11 responders and victims as they do about this stupid mosque.

While they were distracting us with the whole mosque issue they voted DOWN a bill to help 9-11 responders.

A bill that was financed (so no deficit additions) by closing a tax loophole that lets foreign companies dodge taxes.

Bill would have passed with a simple majority instead of a 2/3 (or if more than 12 Republicans voted for it), but they wanted to do it without amendments.

God forbid an illegal dying from rescuing people from the WTC gets health benefits.

"Why should we as Americans have higher standards of religious liberty than Saudi Arabia? It makes no sense."
- Jon Stewart

Did Jon Stewart really say this? That statement in and of itself doesn't make much sense to me. I don't see our liberties as a higher standard or superior to Saudi Arabia, but I do see a separate set of standards.......I prefer our standards.

Did Jon Stewart really say this? That statement in and of itself doesn't make much sense to me. I don't see our liberties as a higher standard or superior to Saudi Arabia, but I do see a separate set of standards.......I prefer our standards.

(1) Yes, Jon Stewart really said this--sarcastically, of course.

(2) Really? You don't see the standards of religious toleration & separation of church & state as being a higher standard or superior to that of Saudi Arabia? You think the American & Saudi standards are just "separate but equal"? You say "I prefer our standards," but is it just personal preference (e.g. I prefer chocolate to strawberry)? You don't see any moral difference in US vs Saudi standards re religious freedom/toleration?

Christopher Hitchens has the most well-reasoned opinion on this I've heard yet. Nothing like Gingrich and Palin pretending to express my sentiments. Link to article here, and excerpts below:

The dispute over the "Ground Zero mosque" is an object lesson in how not to resist intolerance. - By Christopher Hitchens - Slate Magazine


...Take, for example, the widely publicized opinion of Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League. Supporting those relatives of the 9/11 victims who have opposed Cordoba House, he drew a crass analogy with the Final Solution and said that, like Holocaust survivors, "their anguish entitles them to positions that others would categorize as irrational or bigoted." This cracked tune has been taken up by Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin, who additionally claim to be ventriloquizing the emotions of millions of Americans who did not suffer bereavement....

...Where to start with this part-pathetic and part-sinister appeal to demagogy? To begin with, it borrows straight from the playbook of Muslim cultural blackmail. Claim that something is "offensive," and it is as if the assertion itself has automatically become an argument. You are even allowed to admit, as does Foxman, that the ground for taking offense is "irrational and bigoted." But, hey?why think when you can just feel? The supposed "feelings" of the 9/11 relatives have already deprived us all of the opportunity to see the real-time footage of the attacks?a huge concession to the general dulling of what ought to be a sober and continuous memory of genuine outrage. Now extra privileges have to be awarded to an instant opinion-poll majority. Not only that, the president is urged to use his high office to decide questions of religious architecture! ...

Nothing can compare to the Holocaust and those who compare and contrast this are incredibly insensitive and without thought to the egregious inhumanity that transpired at the hand of a First World nutjob......for years!! People do have varying degrees of feelings surrounding 9/11; I think this should be respected, but freedom of speech should not suffer because of peoples' feelings. Thankfully, I had no direct loss with 9/11, but most certainly experienced loss relating to that date and those attacks.

I think it was ruled that the building is not historic, which means with proper permitting, this group wanting to erect the mosque, can.

(1) Yes, Jon Stewart really said this--sarcastically, of course.

(2) Really? You don't see the standards of religious toleration & separation of church & state as being a higher standard or superior to that of Saudi Arabia? You think the American & Saudi standards are just "separate but equal"? You say "I prefer our standards," but is it just personal preference (e.g. I prefer chocolate to strawberry)? You don't see any moral difference in US vs Saudi standards re religious freedom/toleration?

No, I do not think we are superior and I respect others' cultures. I have often said that one country to keep an eye on in the Middle East is Saudi Arabia due to their borders being 100% closed. The US and Saudi arabia are completely different fundamentally and I see not one as superior to another.

Resounding Yes, I prefer our standards all encompassing from Freedom of Religion and Separation of Church and State to their Royal Dictator style. But, that's just me.

The main point of Stewart's really good bit on this contoversy is that people like Gingrich and Palin want us to revert to a state of intolerance. They want us to demonize an entire religion. Stewart pointed out there has been a mosque in that district (two blocks from "ground zero") for over forty years. This area is know as Little Syria. We can't let one horrible act, by a small bunch of losers, push us into hatred and intolerance of an entire worldwide religion. This is precisely what Al Queda wants.

(1) Yes, Jon Stewart really said this--sarcastically, of course.

(2) Really? You don't see the standards of religious toleration & separation of church & state as being a higher standard or superior to that of Saudi Arabia? You think the American & Saudi standards are just "separate but equal"? You say "I prefer our standards," but is it just personal preference (e.g. I prefer chocolate to strawberry)? You don't see any moral difference in US vs Saudi standards re religious freedom/toleration?

I'll be more than happy to say i think overall our society is morally superior to that of Saudi Arabia.

I'll be more than happy to say i think overall our society is morally superior to that of Saudi Arabia.

I'll drink to that!

But, we shouldn't forget that our govt. does things that might appear morally "insensitive", like invading countries, ignoring genocide, and enabling ruthless corporations to rape and pillage the resources of other countries.

I guess, on balance, we're pretty schizophrenic, huh?