Born in the USA

Agreed that they weren't considering pragmatic elements like social security. But to that point I would respond that the issue and solution is with social security rather than with citizenship rules.

On your last point, I am under the impression that the 14th amendment was completely intended to apply to immigrants after considerable discussion/debate. Can anyone versed on this subject set us straight?

Agreed that they weren't considering pragmatic elements like social security. But to that point I would respond that the issue and solution is with social security rather than with citizenship rules.

On your last point, I am under the impression that the 14th amendment was completely intended to apply to immigrants after considerable discussion/debate. Can anyone versed on this subject set us straight?

This is one thing I could never wrap my head around, Geo, when I worked social services. If I got pregnant, and went to the health department for care, I have to give a slew of information, including an id, ss number and such to receive a discount rate on services. A non-english speaking woman without id can receive services and will not be asked for the same info. They can bring a note from a neighbor, or nothing. The system has now moved to treating a citizen to a harder standard than a non-citizen, while the citizen has to help pay for the non-citizens care. Hold us to the same standard, if we are equal.

I heard something last week about (and I might be wrong baout the statistic) one in five newborns here being delivered to an illegal immigrant. I don't care where they are from, it just violates common sense that being born here equates to citizenship. Forty weeks and a Social Security number...it isn't right.

Bob has simply determined some time ago that anyone who is concerned about illegal immigrants fears hispanics taking over. It is lazy thinking on Bob el loco's part.

It makes a lot of sense. it's easy to indoctrinate children.

Since the Iphone doesn't allow you to add to a post here comes the third in my series-

I am from the Midwest along with the mother of my kids and my oldest child. My youngest however was born in FL.

Drinking beers and watching SEC football I have been reminded many times by southerners that I am a Yankee and that the only member of my family who is a Southerner is my daughter.

I have been here longer than she's been alive. I have immersed myself in the culture, learned to cook the food and speak the language. I've assimilated in many ways. But I will always be a Yankee and my daughter- because she was born here gets street cred.

This sentiment makes sense to so many of the same folks who suddenly see no wisdom whatsoever in the 14th amendment.

Again- why now?

I said this on another post, because its easier to indoctrinate/brainwash the kiddies.

Skunky et al:

Riddle me this-
why now?

We have citizens and elected officials wanting to amend an amendment to the constitution that's been in place for well over a century. Why the call to action today when violence in AZ is on a three year + downward trend, when deportations are on an upward trend, when the national guard has been committed to the borders, etc etc. Why not 4 years ago? Or 8 years ago? Why not 12 years ago or 16 years ago? Why now?

P.S. Same question for mass tea party protests against spending and taxes. Why now instead of during other recent times when spending was out of control and taxes were where they are now or worse?

I don't know that the Constitution needs to be amendeded for rational immigation reform. I am not concerned about violence, gangs, drugs, etc. Those arguments are the refuge of the racists and politicians whipping up the masses. My big concerns are a general sense of ignoring the laws and the ultimate exploitation of the illegals. I admire the spunk and work ethic the illegals have. There was a camp, and I do mean camp, of them in a vacant lot across the street from us in post Katrina New Orleans. I never fealt threatened by them...they were there to make money and worked their butts off. I gave them some old t-shirts I no longer needed one day and you would have thought I was handing out cash. Sadly, these shadow workers are often exploited with bad wages, unsafe working conditions, etc.

The high irony is that if there was a magic wand a tea party guy could wave and 'make them all go away', our cost of living would go up. That is a dirty little secret nobody wants to discuss, but it is true. Mango posted some excellent links a year or so ago, and it turns out that the cost of absorbing the illegals is a bargain when consideration is given to the cheap labor they provide. In dollars and cents, the status quo makes perfect sense. I was swayed by a debate on NPR a month or two ago when the human misery of illegals was taken into consideration. God help us all if we tolerate human exploitation in the name of cheap lettuce and $8.99 meals at Applebee's. The fact is that we need to make some difficult choices in regards to immigration, there are no silver bullets.

ALeonard, I hear ya but the hospital policy isn't to require ID and expect paymnent from only English speaking white people who can afford to pay.

If you went in without the ability to produce ID or form of payment you wouldn't be turned away.

So the same standards apply.

Great post, Skunky

ALeonard, I hear ya but the hospital policy isn't to require ID and expect paymnent from only English speaking white people who can afford to pay.

If you went in without the ability to produce ID or form of payment you wouldn't be turned away.

So the same standards apply.

I said a health clinic and I worked social services Geo. I've been in the middle of this.You can sit there and tell me whatever you think it can or cannot do. I've seen it.

A hospital can triage you and if it is not deemed an emergency can turn you away. They do it every day.

I heard something last week about (and I might be wrong baout the statistic) one in five newborns here being delivered to an illegal immigrant. I don't care where they are from, it just violates common sense that being born here equates to citizenship. Forty weeks and a Social Security number...it isn't right.

Bob has simply determined some time ago that anyone who is concerned about illegal immigrants fears hispanics taking over. It is lazy thinking on Bob el loco's part.

this neer do well determined some time ago those protesting the loudest were lacking mellanin. the gentle epiphany happened to me some time ago, tv remote in hand, fully involved in the afterglow of pacifico and refritos. the channel was stuck on flocks news, and rachel maddow was being burned in effigy by heathens raised on meat loaf. i could feel the anguish of the pasty people, whose perspiring pink foreheads only hinted at the frustration of not ever having experienced ritualistic carbo induced mid afternoon rem.

I said a health clinic and I worked social services Geo. I've been in the middle of this.You can sit there and tell me whatever you think it can or cannot do. I've seen it.

A hospital can triage you and if it is not deemed an emergency can turn you away. They do it every day.

Ok, ok. But before we get too far into a discussion of hospitals' practice of providing/denying care to poor people let's remember we're discussing the idea that folks want to amend the constitution so that when the pregnant woman you mentioned is admitted and has a baby it won't be a citizen. How would this have changed the issue you bring up? I don't think it has much if anything to do with it. Whether or not the pregnant woman who can't speak English's baby ends up being an instant citizen will have no bearing on whether or not she is admitted.

Ok, ok. But before we get too far into a discussion of hospitals' practice of providing/denying care to poor people let's remember we're discussing the idea that folks want to amend the constitution so that when the pregnant woman you mentioned is admitted and has a baby it won't be a citizen. How would this have changed the issue you bring up? I don't think it has much if anything to do with it. Whether or not the pregnant woman who can't speak English's baby ends up being an instant citizen will have no bearing on whether or not she is admitted.

No, my question was why does a non-citizen receive a level of care that a citizen cannot? I asked why are we not all held to the same standard?
It's just one more facet in the issue of illegal immigration and health care. Where, surprisingly enough, illegal immigration does not eat up more revenue than the uninsured. They are about equal if the physicians I interviewed in the past are correct. My original statement said it was something I could not understand, why there was a separate track for illegal immigrant mothers. It seems the only point you heard as you keep repeating it, was they did not speak English. I asked a question. Why not hold us to the same standard? Not that anyone in the scenario was bad for any reason. And I stand by my belief that much of it could be solved if one parent was a citizen, since it does not seem that anyone can get it together to secure the borders. People want to talk about fraud in health care, a lot of it goes on in this type of scenario as well since it is almost all publicly funded. Treat me the same if we both present, that was my point.

No, my question was why does a non-citizen receive a level of care that a citizen cannot? I asked why are we not all held to the same standard?
It's just one more facet in the issue of illegal immigration and health care. Where, surprisingly enough, illegal immigration does not eat up more revenue than the uninsured. They are about equal if the physicians I interviewed in the past are correct. My original statement said it was something I could not understand, why there was a separate track for illegal immigrant mothers. It seems the only point you heard as you keep repeating it, was they did not speak English. I asked a question. Why not hold us to the same standard? Not that anyone in the scenario was bad for any reason. And I stand by my belief that much of it could be solved if one parent was a citizen, since it does not seem that anyone can get it together to secure the borders. People want to talk about fraud in health care, a lot of it goes on in this type of scenario as well since it is almost all publicly funded. Treat me the same if we both present, that was my point.

I thought I was with you but maybe not.

I honestly don't mean to make it sound like I am stuck on/making it about whether or not illegals speak English. I only said that cuz I thought the crux of where you started was:

1) non-English speaking woman
2) no ID
3) receives services

Here's your quote-

A non-english speaking woman without id can receive services and will not be asked for the same info. They can bring a note from a neighbor, or nothing.

I don't know if we view the situation the same. I don't see it as a case of citizen vs. illegal. I see it as Have vs. Have Not. Correct me if I am wrong but my belief is if a pregnant woman goes to the ER that she and her baby will receive care whether she does/does not have insurance, is rich or is poor, is white or brown, speaks english or not, is legal or illegal.



As such, I *am* of the belief that the same standard applies- you will receive care whether you can afford it or not.

I'm not of the perspective that it is unfair when both people receive treatment- the one with insurance who can afford to pay their bills and the poor person without insurance who has no clue how to pay. Both should be able to have their babies wherever they are at the time and any issues with creditors or the INS can be dealt with another time. Maybe if we were talking about nose jobs and calf implants I might agree.

But regardless of if we agree or disagree on whether the standard is really the same in this scenario I am still of the opinion that it has nothing to do with the issue of changing the 14th amendment.

The poor person having the baby can't afford to pay (but won't be turned away) whether that baby is given citizen status or not.

EDIT: I seek to understand you.
What is the heart of your beef? That they are illegal and still receive care? That there doesn't seem to be an expectation that they can pay but there is with you? That there doesn't seem to be an expectation for them to fill out forms and provide ID but there is with you?

I thought I was with you but maybe not.

I honestly don't mean to make it sound like I am stuck on/making it about whether or not illegals speak English. I only said that cuz I thought the crux of where you started was:

1) non-English speaking woman
2) no ID
3) receives services

Here's your quote-


I don't know if we view the situation the same. I don't see it as a case of citizen vs. illegal. I see it as Have vs. Have Not. Correct me if I am wrong but my belief is if a pregnant woman goes to the ER that she and her baby will receive care whether she does/does not have insurance, is rich or is poor, is white or brown, speaks english or not, is legal or illegal.



As such, I *am* of the belief that the same standard applies- you will receive care whether you can afford it or not.

I'm not of the perspective that it is unfair when both people receive treatment- the one with insurance who can afford to pay their bills and the poor person without insurance who has no clue how to pay. Both should be able to have their babies wherever they are at the time and any issues with creditors or the INS can be dealt with another time. Maybe if we were talking about nose jobs and calf implants I might agree.

But regardless of if we agree or disagree on whether the standard is really the same in this scenario I am still of the opinion that it has nothing to do with the issue of changing the 14th amendment.

The poor person having the baby can't afford to pay (but won't be turned away) whether that baby is given citizen status or not.

EDIT: I seek to understand you.
What is the heart of your beef? That they are illegal and still receive care? That there doesn't seem to be an expectation that they can pay but there is with you? That there doesn't seem to be an expectation for them to fill out forms and provide ID but there is with you?

They are both poor, one is a citizen, one is not. They present at a clinic, not a hospital. One has to give information, because they are a citizen, the non-citizen does not. That was the point, Why not come here and have a child if it is easier for a non-citizen than a citizen. Period.

Edit, of course both deserve care, but the one who cannot afford it and is a citizen will be looked at inside and out, have to jump through hoops and stacks of paperwork and if their spouse or so has a job, probably be billed at some point, when they are no better economically than the one who does not have to supply info, because they have none.

They are both poor, one is a citizen, one is not. They present at a clinic, not a hospital. One has to give information, because they are a citizen, the non-citizen does not. That was the point, Why not come here and have a child if it is easier for a non-citizen than a citizen. Period.

So then you're saying that you'd either

A) prefer not to have to provide information at the clinic like the illegal
B) prefer that the illegal be required to provide information at the clinic like everyone else

Am I with you?

I would like to hear commentary about the statistics I posted - how only 8% of babies are born to 1 or 2 illegal parents AND that the mothers in the vast majority of the cases have been in the country for years.

One of the greatest things about our country is that if you are born here you are a citizen. I don't want to change that just because other issues and the standard bad economy racism (this happens in every bad economy and the rhetoric and "concerns" don't change, just the group) make it an easy political target.

It seems like lately most of our political discussions, regardless of topic keep circling back to a lack of enforcement of laws we already have that address the issue and bad policies (written or unwritten) that are costing us all $$$.

I think we need to tackle the real issues of concern, not change the Constitution and deny citizenship.

Why are places providing non-emergency health care to illegals? Why are employers so willing to help them dodge the laws (because they then dodge taxes too and get slave labor in some cases)? How can people live here for years "illegally" yet still get all of these services that "legal" people have to provide a crapload of paperwork to receive? A crackdown on that like we are cracking down on security and deportation is the solution.

We have rules and laws - so make everybody follow them!

So then you're saying that you'd either

A) prefer not to have to provide information at the clinic like the illegal
B) prefer that the illegal be required to provide information at the clinic like everyone else

Am I with you?

I would prefer that both women were treated the same. Period, no matter what that clinic decided that treatment should be, and that is not the way it is done from my experience of working with low income mothers.

We should just ask Bruce Springsteen his take on the matter. I mean, he did write the song.

this neer do well determined some time ago those protesting the loudest were lacking mellanin. the gentle epiphany happened to me some time ago, tv remote in hand, fully involved in the afterglow of pacifico and refritos. the channel was stuck on flocks news, and rachel maddow was being burned in effigy by heathens raised on meat loaf. i could feel the anguish of the pasty people, whose perspiring pink foreheads only hinted at the frustration of not ever having experienced ritualistic carbo induced mid afternoon rem.

Glad that Bob's thinkyurt once again has it all figured out:roll:

The police said Saturday?s attack was at least the 10th instance in the past four months in which assailants, mostly young black men, have assaulted Mexican immigrants walking in Port Richmond, which has seen the number of Mexican residents climb sharply over the past two decades.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/02/nyregion/02staten.html

So are we saying that the attackers weren't racist because they weren't Caucasian?

For years Republicans refused to enforce immigration rules when cheap labor was needed to keep our economic engines overheating. Now that they need to create a red herring issue and gay marriage is losing it's outrage factor they are using this 14th amendment issue -- an amendment born of racism -- to provide cover for whipping up a little racism. It's a wedge issue, meant to divide. No one had a problem with this five years ago, when it was a much more pressing issue.

I ran across this, and it put some things into perspective. The least among us are the easiest to use as a wedge...and they are also found in great numbers serving in our armed forces.

CNN profiled seven Silver Star recipients in Afghanistan -- the third highest military award for battlefield valor. Look at the surnames:

Gonzales
Roland
Pinilla
Gould
Bocanegra
Clouse
Nunez

Nunez died saving the lives of his fellow soldiers.

Daily Kos: Look at the surnames

Is this being considered because folks have an issue with all the Caucasian Canadians who come here illegally? I'm under the impression the issue folks have is with Latinos. I've never personally heard anyone beotch about illegals who were Asian or Dutch.

No Geo, I think it's because conservatives are realizing that Obama really was born in Hawaii and their irrational fear is so great they are trying their best to change the 14th admendment to prevent someone who doesn't look exactly like them from ever being elected President again.

No Geo, I think it's because conservatives are realizing that Obama really was born in Hawaii and their irrational fear is so great they are trying their best to change the 14th admendment to prevent someone who doesn't look exactly like them from ever being elected President again.

Can't wait til the day when we have a president of Mexican descent named Jesus.

Can't wait til the day when we have a president of Mexican descent named Jesus.

Like that would ever happened.

No Geo, I think it's because conservatives are realizing that Obama really was born in Hawaii and their irrational fear is so great they are trying their best to change the 14th admendment to prevent someone who doesn't look exactly like them from ever being elected President again.

Are you sure you can handle 10 million (pick your estimate of the numbers) Catholics unleashed upon your country? Kinda scary, isn't it?

Are you sure you can handle 10 million (pick your estimate of the numbers) Catholics unleashed upon your country? Kinda scary, isn't it?

No less scary than 10 million Baptists or 10 million atheists or 10 million blonde blue eyed europeans.