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The conservative movement is dead, long live the conservative movement

30ashopper avatar
SoWal Insider
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In late October 2008, New Yorker staff writer George Packer reported "the complete collapse of the four-decade project that brought conservatism to power in America." Two weeks later, the day after Mr. Obama's election, Washington Post columnist E.J. Dionne proclaimed "the end of a conservative era" that had begun with the rise of Ronald Reagan.

And in February 2009, New York Times Book Review and Week in Review editor Sam Tanenhaus, writing in The New Republic, declared that "movement conservatism is exhausted and quite possibly dead." Mr. Tanenhaus even purported to discern in the new president "the emergence of a president who seems more thoroughly steeped in the principles of Burkean conservatism than any significant thinker or political figure on the right."

Peter Berkowitz: The Death of Conservatism Was Greatly Exaggerated - WSJ.com

Great WSJ piece today by Berkowitz. People wonder about the origins of the tea party, and commentators like Beck. You have to remember just a few short years ago media far and wide had proclaimed the end of the Reagan era. I think the meteoric rise of figures like Beck and the rise of the TP have a lot to do with how people reacted to the idea of a new progressive era in American politics.

I think the reason why liberals claim this is a reaction to a black president is due to their lack of understanding of conservative principals. Berkowtz hits this nail on the head:

Progressives like to believe that conservatism's task is exclusively negative?resisting the centralizing and expansionist tendency of democratic government. And that is a large part of the conservative mission. Progressives see nothing in this but hard-hearted indifference to inequality and misfortune, but that is a misreading.

What conservatism does is ask the question avoided by progressive promises: at what expense? In the aftermath of the global economic crisis of 2008, Western liberal democracies have been increasingly forced to come to grips with their propensity to live beyond their means.

It is always the task for conservatives to insist that money does not grow on trees, that government programs must be paid for, and that promising unaffordable benefits is reckless, unjust and a long-term threat to maintaining free institutions.

But conservatives also combat government expansion and centralization because it can undermine the virtues upon which a free society depends. Big government tends to crowd out self-government?producing sluggish, selfish and small-minded citizens, depriving individuals of opportunities to manage their private lives and discouraging them from cooperating with fellow citizens to govern their neighborhoods, towns, cities and states.

Replies

72
Lynnie avatar
SoWal Insider
#27
He also inherited fed chairman Paul volker who was able to fix that situation.

See what I'm sayin'? :lol:
LuciferSam avatar
Banned
#28
See what I'm sayin'? :lol:

I do. It's an inconvenient fact that some Reps would like to ignore.
Beach Fanatic
#29
I do. It's an inconvenient fact that some Reps would like to ignore.


When it comes to ignoring inconvienient facts the Republicans do not hold a candle to the Democrats.
30ashopper avatar
SoWal InsiderAuthor
#30
He also inherited fed chairman Paul volker who was able to fix that situation.

He didn't inherit anybody. Volker sat as FED chair for eight years. Carter originally nominated him, and Reagan decided to keep him four years later, in the middle of his first term. :roll:

If you really want to start talking about FED chairs and how pivotal they are. Let's talk about Greenspan, who sat through three presidencies, including Clinton. Did Clinton "inherit" Greenspan? Was Greenspan responsible for the economic expansion of the late 90's? In which case, by your logic, we have Reagan to thank for that. Or is that an "inconvenient fact" you would like to ignore? ;-)
LuciferSam avatar
Banned
#31
He didn't inherit anybody. Volker sat as FED chair for eight years. Carter originally nominated him, and Reagan decided to keep him four years later, in the middle of his first term. :roll:

If you really want to start talking about FED chairs and how pivotal they are. Let's talk about Greenspan, who sat through three presidencies, including Clinton. Did Clinton "inherit" Greenspan? Was Greenspan responsible for the economic expansion of the late 90's? In which case, by your logic, we have Reagan to thank for that. Or is that an "inconvenient fact" you would like to ignore? ;-)

So I address a particular topic and you see that as an opportunity to change the subject and go off on a tangent.
Lynnie avatar
SoWal Insider
#32
For some, it's an inconvenient truthful tangent. :biggrin:
LuciferSam avatar
Banned
#33
The truth of the matter is the president's policies don't have a whole lot of effect on the economy. It's the business cycle combined with fed policy. Carter got burned by it as did big bushie. Little bushie of course was a lame duck, but the weak economy and housing crisis helped Obama get elected, and of course the choice of Palin as VP didn't hurt either. Now the economy has two full years to make some sort of turnaround to help our incumbent President. It's not out of the question. Obama might want to suck up to small business a bit and offer them some breaks to get them hiring. Personal savings is at a higher rate than it has been in years, and eventually people will start spending again. Inflation is low, interest rates are low, unemployment is the problem.
Lynnie avatar
SoWal Insider
#34
The truth of the matter is the president's policies don't have a whole lot of effect on the economy. It's the business cycle combined with fed policy. Carter got burned by it as did big bushie. Little bushie of course was a lame duck, but the weak economy and housing crisis helped Obama get elected, and of course the choice of Palin as VP didn't hurt either. Now the economy has two full years to make some sort of turnaround to help our incumbent President. It's not out of the question. Obama might want to suck up to small business a bit and offer them some breaks to get them hiring. Personal savings is at a higher rate than it has been in years, and eventually people will start spending again. Inflation is low, interest rates are low, unemployment is the problem.

By George! You're a conservative! :wave:
30ashopper avatar
SoWal InsiderAuthor
#35
The truth of the matter is the president's policies don't have a whole lot of effect on the economy. It's the business cycle combined with fed policy. Carter got burned by it as did big bushie. Little bushie of course was a lame duck, but the weak economy and housing crisis helped Obama get elected, and of course the choice of Palin as VP didn't hurt either. Now the economy has two full years to make some sort of turnaround to help our incumbent President. It's not out of the question. Obama might want to suck up to small business a bit and offer them some breaks to get them hiring. Personal savings is at a higher rate than it has been in years, and eventually people will start spending again. Inflation is low, interest rates are low, unemployment is the problem.

That's the kicker right there. They will, but when, and how much? Considering the massive debt load people took on, it could be a very slow return to normal. Repairing the damage done is good for us, the economy, and the country long term. But it's not so good for Obama and the democrats.

Independent of this, the current administration and party in power created a major debt problem at the federal level. They will be held accountable for this.
LuciferSam avatar
Banned
#36
That's the kicker right there. They will, but when, and how much? Considering the massive debt load people took on, it could be a very slow return to normal. Repairing the damage done is good for us, the economy, and the country long term. But it's not so good for Obama and the democrats.

Independent of this, the current administration and party in power created a major debt problem at the federal level. They will be held accountable for this.

Not necessarily. When and if the debt becaomes a problem (it hasn't yet), the party in power will be held accountable.
Beach Fanatic
#37
Not necessarily. When and if the debt becaomes a problem (it hasn't yet), the party in power will be held accountable.


Now we come to the crux of the matter, progressives do not think 13 trillion dollars of debt is a problem and fiscal conservatives are scared to death of it.
Figure out what it will cost the Federal government in interest payments on the current debt if interest rates go up a tick or two and then tell me the debt is not already a huge problem.
Bob avatar
SoWal Insider
#38
Ronald Reagan, George Bush, and Barack Obama. What's your point?
not same scenarios
Bob avatar
SoWal Insider
#39
Reagan inherited double digit inflation, interest rates and a recession.
reagan had little debt, volker killed the inflation w 21 percent short interest, and ronny spent his way out and unleashed a ****storm of criminal s/l lending, and military waste.
Bob avatar
SoWal Insider
#40
Now we come to the crux of the matter, progressives do not think 13 trillion dollars of debt is a problem and fiscal conservatives are scared to death of it.
Figure out what it will cost the Federal government in interest payments on the current debt if interest rates go up a tick or two and then tell me the debt is not already a huge problem.
debt is not the problem if tax revenues are anemic from lack of economic activity/high unemployment.
LuciferSam avatar
Banned
#41
Now we come to the crux of the matter, progressives do not think 13 trillion dollars of debt is a problem and fiscal conservatives are scared to death of it.
Figure out what it will cost the Federal government in interest payments on the current debt if interest rates go up a tick or two and then tell me the debt is not already a huge problem.

At this point in time, any possible negative consequences of the debt have not yet manifested themselves.
Bob avatar
SoWal Insider
#42
Now we come to the crux of the matter, progressives do not think 13 trillion dollars of debt is a problem and fiscal conservatives are scared to death of it.
Figure out what it will cost the Federal government in interest payments on the current debt if interest rates go up a tick or two and then tell me the debt is not already a huge problem.
the crux of the matter is the debt has grown under repubs more than dem presidents, and the paying down of debt is impossible given current conditions. where was the protest under gw??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
LuciferSam avatar
Banned
#43
debt is not the problem if tax revenues are anemic from lack of economic activity/high unemployment.

Absolutely true, if economic activity increases, the deficit wil certainly decline due to increased revenues, something I'm sure our Republican friends do not want to see happen.
Lynnie avatar
SoWal Insider
#44
debt is not the problem if tax revenues are anemic from lack of economic activity/high unemployment.

Absolutely true, if economic activity increases, the deficit wil certainly decline due to increased revenues, something I'm sure our Republican friends do not want to see happen.

How do you cure this, Y'all? :lol:
Beach Fanatic
#45
the crux of the matter is the debt has grown under repubs more than dem presidents, and the paying down of debt is impossible given current conditions. where was the protest under gw??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


1. I love your continuing idea that because one politician or group of politicians in the past were stupid, then all current and future politicians and groups of politicians get a free pass to be stupid also.

2. When you are incapable of paying your debt, isn't that by definition bankruptcy?

3. Because people did not protest during the Bush Administration to your satisfaction, they are forever barred from protesting now that they realize the problem?

:bang::bang::bang:
Beach Fanatic
#46
Absolutely true, if economic activity increases, the deficit wil certainly decline due to increased revenues, something I'm sure our Republican friends do not want to see happen.


Like our democrat friends did not want the surge to work because that would mess up their story?:shock:
Beach Fanatic
#47
Absolutely true, if economic activity increases, the deficit wil certainly decline due to increased revenues,


Eureka!!!! Supply-side economics is alive and well here in sowal!:clap:You did leave out the tax decrease but I will take one step at a time.;-)
30ashopper avatar
SoWal InsiderAuthor
#48
At this point in time, any possible negative consequences of the debt have not yet manifested themselves.

It's manifesting right now. We're paying interest on the debt. Every day we borrow more our interest costs rise. What is the federal government consuming in debt payments right now as a percentage of revenue? I think total debt payments this year are supposed to reach a half trillion.
LuciferSam avatar
Banned
#49
1.

2. When you are incapable of paying your debt, isn't that by definition bankruptcy?

No it's not. Bankruptcy is a legal declaration of refusal to pay your debt at any time in the future.
Beach Fanatic
#50
No it's not. Bankruptcy is a legal declaration of refusal to pay your debt at any time in the future.


I think the realization you cannot pay is the first step in the process.
30ashopper avatar
SoWal InsiderAuthor
#51
Absolutely true, if economic activity increases, the deficit wil certainly decline due to increased revenues, something I'm sure our Republican friends do not want to see happen.

The deficit? What about the debt accumulated? The only period in my lifetime this actually decreased was a brief period at the hieght of the stock bubble, and that only counts if you include excess social security income. If you take ss surplus out, debt has increased under every presidency over the last god knows how many years.

I guess my question is, when do we demand a change in this behavior from washington? Obama has projected out ten years and the annual deficit under his economic plans never drops below 600 billion! That's with a robust economic recovery and tax increases on "the rich" factored in.

Are you ok with that kind of long term plan?

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