Why do we need high speed rail between Tampa and Orlando?

High-speed rail, SunRail: Election results could derail high-speed rail, SunRail - OrlandoSentinel.com

..and between Orlando and Miami? When I was living on California, Las Vegas spent a lot of money trying to get a high speed rail line between Vegas and L.A.. Everyone said it was primarily designed funnel L.A. money over to Vegas casinos, which long term, would be bad for Californians.

Here in Florida it seems some folks are trying to do the same thing for Orlando.



I get the short term jobs argument, but what are the long term benefits? Can anyone voice long term economic reasons for these projects? What about long term costs?

We don't and Orlando and Tampa don't either.

We need it to keep some of the older drivers off the road, especially during evacuations.

I think rail/mass transit is a long neglected part of our country's infrastructure.

Aside from short term construction jobs, it means fewer cars on the road (from a fuel, pollution, and traffic standpoint), an alternate to airplane flight, and more mobility options for an aging population that can't/shouldn't drive.

I love high speeed rail and wish we had more lines in America. I am a lone duck among some friends in Atlanta that uses the train and bus. I can assure you, you will encounter interesting characters and a laugh or two, much less no parking issues, tickets (just got one at 18 miles over), DUI's, etc. As far as safety, I've never had an issue in any country or city using their mass transit.

To pay for it, I am all for GO bonds or Revenue bonds.

Those kinds of construction jobs have long propped up the private construction sector during economic downturns while providing a useful product in the end. There are a lot of Depression era WPA structures and projects still serving the public good to this day.

But I don't like the assorted Florida high speed rail proposals because I think the numbers just don't work out. The places where high speed rail is successful (France, Japan, etc.)tend to have very high density population clusters as terminal/transfer points.

And we just don't have that kind of proper density for success in this country outside of the Northeast/Atlantic corridor. Long distance mass transit in this country relies far more on the airline hub and spoke model for good reason- we've got a buttload of mid-sized metro areas clustered in just such a way that the geography makes it the optimal system.

The price for including those small to mid-sized metros into the high speed rail grid is extremely huge if you're talking additional track, and even significant if you're talking about midpoints along straight line tracks. Adding Lakeland as a stop in a Tampa-Orlando route significantly increases both travel time and energy costs for HSR, and those increased costs get passed on so that you don't add riders in Lakeland without losing a few in Tampa/Orlando.

And when these kinds of projects go forward and cause huge financial discomfort for a lot of someones, it then becomes harder to properly fund mass transit projects that honestly do make sense for an area/ region.

I hate the airline "hub and spoke" - because that is never where I want to go and I end up traveling much further. Only in airplane logic is the best way to get from East Texas to the Western Florida Panhandle to go through North Carolina.

Would much rather take a train or fly somewhere, then take a regional train than deal with the zig-zags and frustration of air travel.

Not sure high speed is the best way to go, but I really want more train travel options.

My inlaws just took the train from Cleveland to Seattle. We dropped them at the station last Thursday at 0300 in the morning. They went coach to Chicago and a sleeper berth to Seattle. They hade a great time. The scenery was beautiful, the food was execptional and the company was interseting. They arrived on Saturday morning in Seattle and can't stop talking about the ride.

Those kinds of construction jobs have long propped up the private construction sector during economic downturns while providing a useful product in the end. There are a lot of Depression era WPA structures and projects still serving the public good to this day.

But I don't like the assorted Florida high speed rail proposals because I think the numbers just don't work out. The places where high speed rail is successful (France, Japan, etc.)tend to have very high density population clusters as terminal/transfer points.

And we just don't have that kind of proper density for success in this country outside of the Northeast/Atlantic corridor. Long distance mass transit in this country relies far more on the airline hub and spoke model for good reason- we've got a buttload of mid-sized metro areas clustered in just such a way that the geography makes it the optimal system.

The price for including those small to mid-sized metros into the high speed rail grid is extremely huge if you're talking additional track, and even significant if you're talking about midpoints along straight line tracks. Adding Lakeland as a stop in a Tampa-Orlando route significantly increases both travel time and energy costs for HSR, and those increased costs get passed on so that you don't add riders in Lakeland without losing a few in Tampa/Orlando.

And when these kinds of projects go forward and cause huge financial discomfort for a lot of someones, it then becomes harder to properly fund mass transit projects that honestly do make sense for an area/ region.

Starting on the East Coast / NE is a great start, I think.

Atlanta plans on wasting $47.6 MILLION dollars of stimulous money to build a railed streetcar route between Centennial Park and the MLK Center / Home.

Apparently, no one who is on the planning end of this fiasco cares to admit or remember the fact that there used to be a fake streetcar (dressed up busses) that ran the same route and a MARTA route that covered the same area. Neither of those survived because nobody rides between those points of interest. The fake streetcar packed up and redeployed somewhere else where it could make money, and MARTA got rid of the route, outright.

This is the kind of stuff that people need to be paying attention to and getting mad about...

Just my two cents...

Carry on...

Let me be clear. I am not against mass transit, far from it. It works very well where it has been well planned and there was, originally, not an abundance of cars. (Read Europe). If some enterprising private capitalists want to build a high speed railway between Tampa and Orlando, be my guest. Just don't use tax dollars to do it and then wonder why it turns out like AMTRAC.

I think mass transit is an important part of reducing our oil consumption - but ideally that starts with using buses (electric, natural gas, bio-deisel) because you can easily adjust the number/routes.

Connecting major cities and destinations w/ trains when you know there is a demand is logical, but dedicated high speed when there isn't a well used passenger rail line seems premature.

Why high speed instead of express and locals?

Most people who take mass transit do so because it is less expensive and more convenient than driving - so that is what planners should focus on IMO.

Atlanta plans on wasting $47.6 MILLION dollars of stimulous money to build a railed streetcar route between Centennial Park and the MLK Center / Home.

Apparently, no one who is on the planning end of this fiasco cares to admit or remember the fact that there used to be a fake streetcar (dressed up busses) that ran the same route and a MARTA route that covered the same area. Neither of those survived because nobody rides between those points of interest. The fake streetcar packed up and redeployed somewhere else where it could make money, and MARTA got rid of the route, outright.

This is the kind of stuff that people need to be paying attention to and getting mad about...

Just my two cents...

Carry on...

Memphis put in a streetcar line in the early 90's. It was so well received they have added two more lines since then. It has helped revitalize the downtown area by being able to park your car and jump on one of the trolleys and ride from north to south and west to east. During the lunch hour the fare is 50 cents. I loved riding the restored antique trolley cars when I lived there.

To answer the original question; how else are we, as tax payers, going to subsidize the fastest tram to and from Disney World and their cruise ships?

Over the years I've seen the HSR flounder for years and then when passed promptly get repealed do to the perceived high cost of land. I've always wondered why, like the northeast, we don't simple use the median on the interstates for these trains?

Florida can't squander high-speed rail chance - Orlando Sentinel Florida can't squander high-speed rail chance
October 30, 2010|By David Gardiner | Guest columnist

Sen. Bill Nelson recently announced that Florida would be receiving an additional $800 million for the high-speed rail project. This is one of the smartest economic investments that Florida could make.

Perhaps more important, it is a significant step in reducing our reliance on unstable and expensive supplies of foreign oil.

The plan to link Tampa Bay, Orlando, and Miami by rail is already financed by the federal government and would therefore not be a burden on the state. Florida has been given $1.25 billion from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act in addition to the recently announced $800 million, all of which will be forfeited to another state if Florida's leaders choose not to proceed with this opportunity, instead of investing in the economic development of FloridaMore rail transportation is desperately needed in Florida. This region has grown at the high rate of 300,000 residents per year consistently for the last four decades. There also have been increases in the volume of tourism, leading to the congestion that turns Interstate 4 into a parking lot. Currently, the region is almost entirely reliant on automobiles for transportation between these metro areas, which together have a population of more than 10 million people. Almost 30 colleges and universities are in close proximity to the route, as well as the headquarters of 10 Fortune 500 companies.

According to the Department of Commerce, the $1.25 billion investment will create approximately 11,000 jobs in Florida. A recent study by Duke University indicates that there are 249 manufacturing and assembly locations for passenger and transit rail vehicle systems and components in the United States that could expand and hire with these funds. With the development of rail infrastructure, local companies stand to benefit.

Rail infrastructure will also bring livability benefits to the region. High-speed rail is not a standalone luxury project, but an integral part of a greater transportation system, which serves the millions of Floridians who live along the Tampa-Orlando-Miami corridor. This investment will fund a number of projects across the state, including track upgrades, grade crossings, new stations, and maintenance facilities.

Sorry Bob, the new regime in Tallahassee will gladly thumb it's nose at the money and send it on it's way.

Sen. Bill Nelson recently announced that Florida would be receiving an additional $800 million for the high-speed rail project. This is one of the smartest economic investments that Florida could make.

Not necessarily true. Long term costs *may* over shadow any short term economic boost.

Perhaps more important, it is a significant step in reducing our reliance on unstable and expensive supplies of foreign oil.

Not necessarily true. Low ridership numbers in some systems (Denver for example) actually end up consuming more energy per user than conventional transportation methods.

Which is why we need to study propsed systems extensively before embarking on such projects.

Which is why we need to study propsed systems extensively before embarking on such projects.

Florida High Speed Rail - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Planning
[edit] Original referendum

In November 2000, Florida voters approved an amendment to Florida's constitution mandating the state establish a system of high speed trains exceeding 120 mph to link its five largest urban areas, with construction to commence by November 1, 2003. The Florida Legislature enacted the Florida High Speed Rail Authority Act in March 2001, creating the Florida High Speed Rail Authority (HSRA).[5] The HSRA established a Vision Plan for the system which proposed construction in several phases.[6] Preliminary assessments and environmental studies were begun to develop an initial phase of the system between Orlando and Tampa.[5]

The first phase, planned for completion in 2009 under the original referendum, would have connected Orlando to Tampa (Phase 1, Part 1), with a later extension to St. Petersburg (Phase 1, Part 2).[7] Later phases might have extended the network to Miami, Fort Myers, Jacksonville, Tallahassee and Pensacola.

The Florida HSRA issued a Request for Proposal to Design, Build, Operate, Maintain and Finance (DBOM&F) the Orlando to Tampa Phase In October 2002. Two of the four received in February 2003 were reviewed further, one from a consortium of Fluor Corp. and Bombardier Transportation and one from Global Rail Consortium. The proposals showed cost of the Orlando-Tampa route to be approximately $2.4 billion. Both proposals offered private equity contributions to support operations of the system and show willingness of the private sector to share risk associated with projected ridership revenues.[5] In June 2003 Florida Governor Jeb Bush vetoed funding for the project that the Florida Legislature had approved.[8] The HSRA continued moving forward with the project, using funds already authorized by the federal government, and in October 2003 ranked the Fluor Bombardier proposal first.[5]

In early 2004, Governor Jeb Bush endorsed an effort to repeal the 2000 amendment that mandated the construction of the High Speed Rail System. On October 27, 2004, the authority voted to prefer the consortium of Fluor Corp. and Bombardier Transportation to build and operate the system, using Bombardier's JetTrain technology. However a month later in November, Florida voters repealed the 2000 amendment, removing the constitutional mandate for the system. Although the amendment was repealed, no action was taken by the state legislature in regard to the Florida High Speed Rail Authority Act. With the law still in effect, Florida's HSRA continued to meet, and completed the environmental impact statement for the Tampa-Orlando segment in 2005. With the constitutional mandate gone, however, funding for the project came to a halt and very little action was taken over the next several years.[5]
[edit] Plans revived in 2009

Passage of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 designated $8 billion for the development of a high-speed intercity passenger rail system. The Federal Railroad Administration named Florida one of ten high speed rail corridors potentially eligible for the federal funding.[9] The HSRA met on February 26, 2009 to being planning their application for these funds.[10] Due to the passage of time, potential legal issues, and new federal funding criteria rendering the earlier bids from 2003 inapplicable, the decision was made in May 2009 that a new bidding process would be necessary.[11][12] A first round application was summited in August 2009 for $30 Million to conduct a two year environmental study on the Orlando-Miami route. In October 2009, the authority summited an application during the second round for the entire Tampa - Orlando - Miami corridor, broken into two components: Orlando-Tampa and Orlando-Miami.[13] Connect Us, a political action committee, was launched on August 18, 2009 to rally public support for these applications.[14]
A typical High Speed Rail cross section in I-4. Note the safety barriers between the tracks and road traffic.

On December 16, the Florida Legislature passed a bill authorizing FDOT move forward with the purchase from CSX of the Central Florida Rail Corridor for the SunRail commuter rail project, and providing much needed additional funding for South Florida's Tri-Rail commuter rail system.[15] Funding of these initiatives was vital to the state's hopes to win federal HSR funding, as it showed the state of Florida was committed to creating a comprehensive rail network allowing connectivity between high speed rail and local mass transit systems.[16] The legislation also replaced the Florida High Speed Rail Authority with the Florida Rail Enterprise, a new agency created under the FDOT, responsible for construction, maintenance, and promotion of the state's high-speed rail system, as well as development and operation of publicly funded passenger rail systems in general.[17]

On January 28, 2010, the White House announced that Florida would receive $1.25 Billion of its request, about half of the cost of the Tampa-Orlando segment.[3] The state's efforts towards high speed rail between 2000 and 2005 put Florida ahead of the field in terms of the level of planning already completed, and this proved to be a major factor in winning the funds.[2] The preservation of the I-4 corridor by the FDOT, and completion of the environmental impact studies in 2005 meant that the project could proceed to construction in a very short time frame for a relatively affordable cost. As of March 2010 the Florida Rail Enterprise was seeking to refine cost estimates based on advanced engineering, finish development of possible Early Works (Install permanent barrier systems along most of I-4 and remove/relocate elements in median) and contract for bid this year and finally initiate a new bid procurement process specific to the Tampa to Orlando phase.[1] Construction of the line is slated to begin in 2011, with the initial phase completed by 2014.[2] In June, 2010, the Federal Railroad Administration issued its record of final decision, the final stage of approval for the design, purchase of land and construction of phase one. Tendering is thus able to begin.[18] In October 2010, Florida received $800 Million more towards construction from the FY 2010 High Speed Rail allocations.[19]
[edit] Construction

In 20 years Orlando will be the largest city in Florida by population and land mass. Unlike every major city in Florida, Orlando is not bordered by the ocean. It will be the hub of a wheel connecting 15 million plus people between Jax, Tampa/St Pete. Miami. This is the future, and the implementation of this project is visionary.

we have studied the idea of high speed rail in Florida to death...literally.

It is time we started looking toward the future (see info above) and planning for that...and adding some creataive marketing so that the idea of using some means of transportation other than a car with one person in it...will be accepted by people.

What we need is some leadership--and vision.

So basically this thing was completely dead until Obama passed the stimulus boondogle. And now everybody is thinking we'll build it? We killed it once because it wasn't economically feasable. What's changed?

I was referring to a much earlier study in the 80s and 90s. Not sure if this one was "dead" or not before the stimulus. Before, no one could agree long enough to get the money appropriated...then, some private sector folks stepped up and it is my understanding that what exists today (long before stimulus) is an evolution of that group from the mid-90s.

It has been studied ad nauseum though. Somewhere in my garage I probably have some of the studies I worked on😱

I love trains and would gladly park my car and use them if they were feasible in this state. Oh, to step on a commuter train, enjoy a cup of coffee and a newspaper, or book on the way to the office

Maybe the oil spill and the recession made people rethink? :idontno:

So basically this thing was completely dead until Obama passed the stimulus boondogle. And now everybody is thinking we'll build it? We killed it once because it wasn't economically feasable. What's changed?

where would you get funding in a state full of blue hairs, no income tax, and a growth policy resembling Mexico City? We could pave the interstates with gold with the money we spend bringing democracy to the unwilling.

I'm fine with it personally is it's not a major drain on resources. So many of these things turn out to be exactly that. When living in S.F. I road around on Bart, never needed a car. It was quite convenient. But I wonder if Tampa -> Orlando is worth it. From north of Orlando to the south might be more feasible, but really, Orlando residents should be the ones footing the bill. (and if Obama want's to chip in some Chinese Yuan, oh well, my generation won't have to pay that back.)