Does anyone actually believe the TSA?

Shoot, there's already pictures on the interwebs:

One Hundred Naked Citizens: One Hundred Leaked Body Scans

These are not from an airport screening - the images were "accidentally" saved by US Marshals at the Federal Courthouse in Orlando.

I am less concerned about the reproduction/sharing of the image (it's a body scan, so simply classify it as medical info and let the lawyers have a field day with anyone who posts or reproduces the info) than I am about the rapidly escalating cost and questionable effectiveness of machines like this.

They continue to build increasingly elaborate mousetraps for a specific breed of mouse w/ a sensitive palate, when IMO they should be focusing on the cheese and peanut butter that has been historically proven to snare many rodents.

No matter what machine they build or how much they grope people, it will still ALWAYS boil down to terrorists trying to get explosives or weapons onto a plane.

Patting down pilots is stupid - if they're involved we've got bigger issues than what's in their pants.

Patting down small children or pets is sadly not.

And IMO this whole patdown thing is a HUGE step in the wrong direction - as a frequent flier I will be adding more bulk to my clothing and acting more nervous - and as a result making their job more difficult and less effective.

I wouldn't ever believe that they aren't saved. I'd wager they are archived somewhere for use in legal cases.

They aren't saved just as any emails you delete aren't saved. Sorry..they are archived and can be recalled with a simple subpoena.

I don't believe they aren't saved no matter what they tell us...

I wouldn't ever believe that they aren't saved. I'd wager they are archived somewhere for use in legal cases.

They aren't saved just as any emails you delete aren't saved. Sorry..they are archived and can be recalled with a simple subpoena.

I don't believe they aren't saved no matter what they tell us...

As to emails don't be so sure. The easiest way to avoid archiving of emails is to have your own server.

I can have our system administrator pull the server I use for email tomorrow and throw it in an incinerator. Other than what I have on my computer those emails are gone. Once they are deleted from the server they can be retrieved, but only for a period of time that shortens with the increased frequency that I receive new emails. The server writes over them and after so many rewrites the information is truly gone.

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:funn:

[ame=http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/365686/november-15-2010/tsa-full-body-scanners---jeffrey-goldberg]TSA Full-Body Scanners - Jeffrey Goldberg - The Colbert Report - 11/15/10 - Video Clip | Comedy Central[/ame]


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As to emails don't be so sure. The easiest way to avoid archiving of emails is to have your own server.

I can have our system administrator pull the server I use for email tomorrow and throw it in an incinerator. Other than what I have on my computer those emails are gone. Once they are deleted from the server they can be retrieved, but only for a period of time that shortens with the increased frequency that I receive new emails. The server writes over them and after so many rewrites the information is truly gone.

No disagreement there, but 99% of the free world does not use their own server for their email client.

No disagreement there, but 99% of the free world does not use their own server for their email client.

Even if you host your own server, your email often relays through intermediate servers where it can be scraped and saved.

I wonder how the TSA is going to protect passengers in the terminal when terrorists decide to target them instead of planes?

Ever been in the security line in ATL on a Monday morning or just before a holiday? the queue is easily > 500 people.

A terrorist with 20-30 pounds of C4 stuffed with 10-20 lbs of nails and screws could do a lot of damage in the middle of that crowd and none of the TSA's Security Theatre can do a darn thing about it.

They'd get just as much publicity/reaction from that as from an airliner. Maybe more since it would be so hard to prevent.

Even if you host your own server, your email often relays through intermediate servers where it can be scraped and saved.

I wonder how the TSA is going to protect passengers in the terminal when terrorists decide to target them instead of planes?

Ever been in the security line in ATL on a Monday morning or just before a holiday? the queue is easily > 500 people.

A terrorist with 20-30 pounds of C4 stuffed with 10-20 lbs of nails and screws could do a lot of damage in the middle of that crowd and none of the TSA's Security Theatre can do a darn thing about it.

They'd get just as much publicity/reaction from that as from an airliner. Maybe more since it would be so hard to prevent.

I've thought of this possibility as well...and, while I like the convenience of traveling from Hartsfield for more direct, non-stop flights, clearing security in smaller airports is so much less hassle. I also try to book flights around non-business busy travel times, but can't always do that.

Should we implement security upon entry to the airport......i.e. screening cars.....MARTA trains, Park 'n Rides, etc. If you've thought about this, the terrorists have already considered their next plan of attack.

I just turned down the full body scan. And had my Junk checked. I will refuse any futher touching of my groin till they prove a right to look there and give me a $20 feel up fee. And one screener stated that the machines use radio frequencies similiar to cell phones. Pretty good BS since it's a giant XRay machine. Our Gov't believes we are all a bunch of non thinking imbeciles. But sorry to say too many of us are just that!

I've spent the past two years as a Field Engineer, which puts me in the air a minimum of four times a week, every week. My primary hub has been Hartsfield (ATL), the busiest airport in the world. I'm a "professional" flyer who's main goal is to get through security as quickly as possible. In roughly 500 flights, I have never encountered a rude TSA employee. Not one. I have, however, encountered many rude travelers. Too many to count.

I have absolutely no problem with the full body scans, and have on many occasions opted for them, rather than removing extra layers of clothing. It's fast and painless. I couldn't care less if some TSA employee see's my junk. In fact, I feel bad for them for having to look at it. ;-) I also don't care if it's stored on a hard disk for all eternity, leaked to Entertainment Tonite, or used on someone's Christmas Cards. It's a human body, nothing more. There's a few billion of them just like mine out there. Big deal.

What I do care about is whether or not someone has half a pound of Semtex taped to their junk, with the goal of blowing themselves, and me along with them, to paradise and martyrdom. I want to get where I'm going safely, and I won't jeopardize my life for the sake of someone else's modesty. If you don't want scanned, that's fine. You have options that don't include flying.

Countering with "someone could blow the terminal outside of security" is faulty logic and doesn't negate the airborne threat. Someone could do any number of things. Blow up an oil refinery, blow up a shopping mall, blow up an NFL game. The opportunities for high body counts are endless. But, there is absolutely nothing as spectacular as bringing down an airliner. It strikes at our deep seated fear of flying, and it can grind our economy to a halt.

We should use El Al as our model. The Israelis have the best track record in the world.

Just my .02 Hope that all of you flyers out there get where you're going quickly and safely, and don't get the middle seat. 🙂

Probable Cause for Search

They show probable cause the same way a cop on the street would. If a cop detects the odor of marijuana coming from your car, he has probable cause to search it. He doesn't need the odor to be electronically documented. It's his word, backed by experience and his sworn status. You can argue it in court until the cows come home, but a grand jury is going to err on the side of the cop, unless they have good reason to believe otherwise.

The TSA screener sees something suspicious on your scan, brings you into a screening room, and physically confirms or clears the suspicious item. If, for instance, they find that you have a brick of C4 in your pants, storage of the scanned image becomes a moot point, as it would not be needed for your arrest and subsequent trial. The body scanners are screening tools designed to identify suspicious travelers for closer physical inspection. You don't get scanned, then placed under arrest based solely on the image on the monitor. Scanning is simply the first step in the detection process.

From the TSA's website on the privacy of scanners:



With no record and no permanent storage how do they prove probable cause? How do they get a conviction?

Is it all based on the 'word' of a TSA screener? That;'s reassuring.

Am I the only one skeptical of what the TSA tells us?

We should use El Al as our model. The Israelis have the best track record in the world.

Just my .02 Hope that all of you flyers out there get where you're going quickly and safely, and don't get the middle seat. 🙂

I have encountered rude TSA personnel, but that was the early days. You're right about rude travelers - the worst encounter.

And, I second your suggestion to follow El Al. Why we haven't is beyond me, but probably because of our size more than anything. Undercover Marshalls (ok) - not on every flight (not ok).

We should use El Al as our model. The Israelis have the best track record in the world.

Exactly.

Of course they don't use the full body scanners. They have agents trained to spot suspicious behavior and they profile their passengers.

I'm doubtful that either would work here, given the caliber of TSA employees and our mindlessly negative reaction to profiling.

why don't we just suspend the bill of rights and live in a police state devoid of any human dignity or privacy. it would be totally safe.

We should use El Al as our model. The Israelis have the best track record in the world.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't El Al profile? And not use scanners?

If that's the case, then I'm in.

Target the terrorists, don't waste time on the 90% of flyers who are no threat.

And, I second your suggestion to follow El Al. Why we haven't is beyond me, but probably because of our size more than anything. Undercover Marshalls (ok) - not on every flight (not ok).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't El Al profile? And not use scanners?

Yes...El Al profiles. They profile the snot out of all their passengers. It is big time racial and ethnic profiling with a lot of psychology involved. Unfortunately, the US is uber politically correct to a fault in some cases so we will probably never see the practices that El Al uses on an American flag carrier which is too bad. I think I'd rather have uncomfortable questions asked of me rather than some minimum wage security guard touchin' my "junk".

Here's an interesting article that gives a little insight into what they do.

Airline security: Gordon Brown must learn from Israel and El Al | News & Politics | News & Comment | The First Post

A friend on another board has artificial joints that are guaranteed to set off a metal detector 100% of the time. And consequently get sent for secondary screening 100% of the time she flies. In her latest trip, she was subjected to the new 'enhanced patdown', which she described as meeting any textbook definition of sexual assult any state has on the books. And she's a nice middle-aged lady not prone to exaggeration.

And despite her explanation that it was her knee replacements that were setting off the scanners, at no time was there an attempt to use a hand-held metal detector to verify the location of the metal on her, just the groping of her crotch.

Hand held metal detectors are not accepted as wrote, anymore. They can be used to ensure that you have no metal on your person (forgotten change, watches, etc...), but if you continue to set it off, you will have to go through the full body scan or get groped regardless. Those will be your only two choices until things change.

A friend on another board has artificial joints that are guaranteed to set off a metal detector 100% of the time. And consequently get sent for secondary screening 100% of the time she flies. In her latest trip, she was subjected to the new 'enhanced patdown', which she described as meeting any textbook definition of sexual assult any state has on the books. And she's a nice middle-aged lady not prone to exaggeration.

And despite her explanation that it was her knee replacements that were setting off the scanners, at no time was there an attempt to use a hand-held metal detector to verify the location of the metal on her, just the groping of her crotch.

Per Papa Scooterbug, she is supposed to have a special card to show the TSA that she has had surgery/artificial joints.

Of course, TSA does not really care - Papa Scooterbug wears shorts or loose pants so he can preemptively show them his giant scar, has the special card, and still gets hassled...........which is why he likes the full body scanners.

I can see the "enhanced patdowns" being used IF there is a valid suspicion that someone is hiding something THERE, but I frankly think they are stupid, cause problems, and violate people's rights.

Any female can smuggle an item in 2 places you can't reach during this groping, and any man can smuggle it in 1. Not to mention the fact that almost every padded bra sold already has "pockets" for a removable pad on the inside.

Heck, I used to sometimes use my non-padded (and rather small) bra instead of a purse in college and you couldn't see it - dorm key, cash, ID, gum, drink tickets, condoms.

The conservative camp says TSA shouldn't body scan / pat down. The liberal camp says TSA shouldn't profile. Many of us in the middle would like to see them do both.

Please remember that no explosives or firearms were used by the 9/11 hijackers. There are plenty of deadly weapons that can pass thru metal detectors and explosive sniffers unnoticed, which could then be used in an identical 9/11 scenario. Go to Bed Bath and Beyond and check out the ceramic chef's knives. They're wicked sharp, and come in all sizes. Better than any box cutter. The only way TSA can detect them is body scanner / pat down.

How bout this solution. Each airline is responsible for their own security. Now we all have a choice. If I want an increased level of safety, I'll fly the airline that does body scans, pat downs, and doesn't allow carry on bags. You want privacy, you fly the airline that does nothing more than eyeball you as you board your flight. Everyone's happy.

How bout this solution. Each airline is responsible for their own security...

There is no requirement for an airport to use the TSA. Typically, the largest or controlling airline at an airport could assume responsibility and hire security other than TSA. They were only a post 9/11 stop gap measure that was never intended to be permanent.

Here's the rub. If something nasty gets through, now, it's the TSA and Uncle Sam on the hook. If the checkpoints are being manned by security details other than TSA that are contracted by an airline, that airline would be on the hook if something went down.

As a result, you are not going to see the TSA go away any time soon.

And this report from yesterday makes things SOOOOO much better.

Perfect Storm: TSA Workers Allowed to Unionize - TSA - Fox Nation

The TSA has, now, been given approval by the Federal Labor Relations Authority to vote for union representation. You think it's bad, now? Just wait...

The conservative camp says TSA shouldn't body scan / pat down. The liberal camp says TSA shouldn't profile. Many of us in the middle would like to see them do both.

Please remember that no explosives or firearms were used by the 9/11 hijackers. There are plenty of deadly weapons that can pass thru metal detectors and explosive sniffers unnoticed, which could then be used in an identical 9/11 scenario. Go to Bed Bath and Beyond and check out the ceramic chef's knives. They're wicked sharp, and come in all sizes. Better than any box cutter. The only way TSA can detect them is body scanner / pat down.

How bout this solution. Each airline is responsible for their own security. Now we all have a choice. If I want an increased level of safety, I'll fly the airline that does body scans, pat downs, and doesn't allow carry on bags. You want privacy, you fly the airline that does nothing more than eyeball you as you board your flight. Everyone's happy.

No, what I am saying is that the TSA should do a wide variety of things THAT ACTUALLY WORK TO COMBAT THE 2 BASIC GOALS OF TERRORISTS - which is to get weapons and explosives on a plane.

I don't need to hide a ceramic knife on my body - as a law abiding non-terrorist I can think of 42 ways to hide things in my "x-rayed" carry on.

The majority of the staff at any security checkpoint is herding cats - the minority is actually looking at identification and checking what is going on the plane.

And me getting felt up by TSA staff does not address that issue.

On the radio this morning people were calling in describing all the contraband they accidentally brought through security. Knives, scissors, mace, fireworks all kinds of crazy stuff. TSA prob doesn't catch 90% of the stuff they're supposed to.

It's a perception game that something is being done to discourage the bad folks at the expense of everyone else.

And, they insisted on keeping my nail clippers!

And, they insisted on keeping my nail clippers!

I really don't understand the whole nail clipper thing - is it because there is a metal file on some?

Cousin's husband is Scottish - and wore the traditional kilt for the wedding - complete with the full size knife that TSA didn't notice.........they also didn't notice when his wife flew home the large ceramic knives they got as a wedding gift.

Basically what I am saying is double the number of actual screeners and reduce the numbers who are groping folks. I look at their screens while I wait on others and it's a mess - no wonder they miss stuff.