AZ sheriff blames political rhetoric

I agree - they also might have guessed (correctly) that the left would use it against her no matter what the facts were.

No guesswork necessary. The left had already been using it against her, and rightfully so.

A person with a mental illness shouldn't be "put in a mental ward" unless that's a last resort.

S/he should get therapy and meds to help him/her live a normal life. Unfortunately there are many people with mental illnesses who do not qualify for medicaid yet cannot afford any type of medical care, including psychiatric care, because they can't get private insurance.

Well, in two years, our tax dollars will be subsidizing this type of care for anyone who makes less than about 80K a year. So, assuming we are willing to raise taxes on ourselves to pay for it, problem solved I guess.

Pure bull****. Nobody was advocating violence with cross hatches on states. You know that, your lefty friends know that, and now you all are just trying to score political points over this sad occurrence. Shame on you.

Pure bullsheet right back at you. In what world does drawing a gunsight on someone not denote violence in any way?

It isn't a right/left issue, no matter how you try to dismiss it as one.

It's about condemning those who use incendiary language and trying to change the acceptability of that. I frequently criticize members of both parties (often at the same time because one is usually only slightly worse than the other) for the level of political discourse in this country.

Palin's actions and involvement in this case made her an obvious example of what is wrong and what needs to change.

Nowhere did I say she is the only person who has ever made inappropriate comments or that the Democrats have done a fabulous job of taking the high road and elevating political discourse in this country (because we know that's a crock.)

This thread is about what role increasingly nasty political rhetoric has in escalating violent incidents.

If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, walks like a duck, swims like a duck, sheds duck feathers, has webbed feet, and appears on the cover of "Duck Digest," I am going to call it a duck.

And that's also who I'm going to blame for the giant pile of duck sheet.

Don't like it, stop being a duck.

I am not a Palin supporter, but not a hater either. I have watched her Alaska series not because I support her, but because it allowed me to somewhat better understand her and the beautiful state she lives in.

We are all a product of our upbringing, the influence of where we live. I don't think she would make a good President or even VP, for many reasons but the special did let me see that physicially and mentally she is a very tough woman.

As to the cross hairs, I did not find it appropriate but I did not find the other chart with the bulls eye either. Both have to do with targets.

While I felt neither are appropriate I don't feel either would be enough to push someone over the edge. People that do this type of violence have been over the edge long before the event.

If more people could be as gracious and forgiving as the parents of the young girl that died we would be a much better nation.

They blamed no one and even felt remorse for the young man that he was in such a horrible place that he felt this was his only option.

They probably more than anyone had a very good reason to hate, and yet they didn't.

When asked what would they like her legacy to be, and they replied, Peace, simply peace.

Pure bullsheet right back at you. In what world does drawing a gunsight on someone not denote violence in any way?

It isn't a right/left issue, no matter how you try to dismiss it as one.

It's about condemning those who use incendiary language and trying to change the acceptability of that. I frequently criticize members of both parties (often at the same time because one is usually only slightly worse than the other) for the level of political discourse in this country.

Palin's actions and involvement in this case made her an obvious example of what is wrong and what needs to change.

Nowhere did I say she is the only person who has ever made inappropriate comments or that the Democrats have done a fabulous job of taking the high road and elevating political discourse in this country (because we know that's a crock.)

This thread is about what role increasingly nasty political rhetoric has in escalating violent incidents.

If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, walks like a duck, swims like a duck, sheds duck feathers, has webbed feet, and appears on the cover of "Duck Digest," I am going to call it a duck.

And that's also who I'm going to blame for the giant pile of duck sheet.

Don't like it, stop being a duck.

You can't expand this out when it's convenient. You tried to make a direct connection between Palin and the Loughnger incident, then you went further and implied Palin advocated violence. I call shenanigans on that. If you want to complain about the vitriol of our political discourse and argue it?s the cause of heightened threats or hate mail or whatever, fine. There's plenty of that going on on all sides of the political isle. But tying Loughnger to Palin is complete bs.

There's a rumor floating around that the Sheriff was notified of multiple threats Loughner had made on people lives(not the Congresswoman). They are saying the sheriff personally reassured them that a restraining order wasn't necessary and that Loughner was getting the help/therapy he needed.

Not sure if this is all speculation or there are facts to support this. Guess we'll find out soon... I really hope this turns out to be false.

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Mother Jones' number crunchers try to answer the question ?What if 31 shots had been only 10??

When there was the Federal Assault Weapons Ban, before 2004, Loughner would have been restricted to 10 bullets. They calculated that with the same hit ratio, 6 people would have been shot and maybe 1 or two killed. (vs 20 injured and 6 killed)

?The Brady Campaign is supporting a new bill by Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY) that would?renew the Assault Weapons Ban, a Democratic priority that the Obama administration had essentially abandoned.

Of course, a renewed ban will do little to get rid of the thousands of high-capacity clips already in circulation. While seven states and the District of Columbia ban clips of the sort Jared Loughner allegedly used, they're widely available in Arizona gun stores and enthusiastically marketed by gun makers....?

What if 31 Shots Had Been Only 10? | Mother Jones



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I think we already do. I'd guess most mental wards are state run and state funded, so the state would be paying for treatment. If these folks were out on the streets, medicaid would cover them assuming they were within the income levels and knew how to get signed up.

I don't know how well we fund such things here in florida, it's an interesting question.

if you are really interested, you would do well to do a little research to see just how poorly mental health issues are handled in this state...and if the health care reform bill is repealed, then the parity issue will go away...NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness - Mental Health Support, Education and Advocacy is a good place to start.

http://www.nami.org/gtsTemplate09.c...management/contentdisplay.cfm&contentID=74682

[quoteIn 2006, Florida?s mental health care system received a grade of C. Three years later, as the need for public mental health services is growing, the state?s grade has slipped to a D. Full narrative (PDF).][/quote]

And maybe, just maybe, this last incident (one of many violent attacks against those on her "hit list" BTW) was the one they thought was going to be the final straw.

Vandalism (including of Gifford's office 24 hours after that was posted), some idiot cutting a gas line at what he thought was another targeted Congressman's house (the posted address was wrong), and death threats and violence against other Congresspeople didn't make them take it down.

Whose opinion will you listen to? How about Congresswoman Giffords? She summed it up pretty effectively back in March:

?We?re on Sarah Palin?s targeted list, but the thing is, that the way she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district and when people do that, they?ve gotta realize there?s consequences to that action.?

Palin, meet consequences.

Anyone who knows anything about guns knows you always treat one like it's loaded and you never aim one at anything you don't want to shoot. They also know bullets can travel far beyond their intended targets.

The Congresswoman that Palin drew crosshairs on just got shot, 6 innocent people are dead, and 13 others are injured.

No amount of spin is going to change those facts.



I could give a rat's arse about the politics. The facts are that when you advocate violence, you run the risk of being responsible for the violent incidents that result.

Maybe its not about left/right, but THAT YOU SHOULDN'T ADVOCATE VIOLENCE.

I agree with this statement but I don't agree that Sarah Palin has ever advocated violence. To advocate means to speak or write in favor of; support or urge by argument; recommend publicly.

Pure bull****. Nobody was advocating violence with cross hatches on states. You know that, your lefty friends know that, and now you all are just trying to score political points over this sad occurrence. Shame on you.

I find it hard to believe that as smart as Sarah Palin seems to be, or that her supporters and promoters, feel she is, that she did not know exactly what she was doing when she approved that chart.

Whatever her intention, if she did not intend to use a violent symbol in a political context, then
she needs to come out of where ever she is right now and say exactly what she intended so that there can be no question about her motive.

I find it hard to believe that as smart as Sarah Palin seems to be, or that her supporters and promoters, feel she is, that she did not know exactly what she was doing when she approved that chart.

Whatever her intention, if she did not intend to use a violent symbol in a political context, then she needs to come out of where ever she is right now and say exactly what she intended so that there can be no question about her motive.

The DNC used a similar chart during the election. Have they come out and stated what they intended? Or have they assumed we're all pretty smart people generally, and assumed we understand the difference between a little silly propaganda and a direct threat on someone's life?

Interesting that he puts all the blame on 1970s civil libertarians but doesn't mention except in passing the near-total gutting of public mental health services by both sides of the aisle during that time frame. Additionally, private health insurers providing adequate in-patient care have pretty much vanished in recent years- far cheaper to give a handful of out-patient therapy sessions every year and expect medication to keep the patient semi-functional even if their condition really calls for in-patient treatment.

I know that the people who run in-patient mental health services for the uninsured in Okaloosa could easily fill beds for 4-5 times where they are now- the need is there, the money isn't, and they're stuck trying to triage the worst of the worst when they do have a rare open bed.

Amen Beachmouse!! My historian of medicine friends who write on the history of mental health have argued this for years. Even in the laissez-faire period of the 19th century, we took better care of the mentally ill than we do now. To be sure, institutionalizing people could be very dire, but they got help, a roof over their heads, and some care. But clearly, "One flew over the cuckoo's nest" showed the downside of that kind of care. With the advent of the psychotropic drugs in the 1950s, we thought we had solved the mental health problems--we would de-institutionalize them, but provide them with anti-psychotic drugs. The idea was to provide "community mental health" facilities. De-institutionalization worked--but we never provided community-based care, and people who are mentally ill usually stop taking their medicine unless we provide other help. The Tuscon shooter was not diagnosed--but lord knows, all the signs were there. (and that he was kicked out of a community college tells me there was *really* a problem no one paid attention to.) Simple human decency would point to our need to care for the mentally ill; civic planning would show that our homeless problem could be addressed if we did, and perhaps most important, our collective public safety would vastly improve!

Nutballs like this mass murderer don't base their motive on sound logic or measure with a moral compass.
Their minds like their actions don't make sense- nutball.
Drugs are always a gateway into the dark side and supposedly that's the route he took- nutball.
Very sad to see someone destroy themselves and take others with them, very sad.
It would be great if we could always prevent incidents like this from happening, but as long as there is an earth, we are going to see these things happen unfortunately.
I pray, but I don't determine the answer.

One prayer I do pray is for people to be safe and to enjoy their lives.

Like I said, I don't determine the answer, nor do I blame God for evil things that happen.
Everyone has to take responsibility for the choices they make.
Again, unfortunately, some ruin their lives and the lives of others.
I think most of us look to enjoy our lives, our families, and to contribute to society as a whole.
I pray for healing for all closely involved in this incident and for those of us disturbed by this horrible tragedy.

The DNC used a similar chart during the election. Have they come out and stated what they intended? Or have they assumed we're all pretty smart people generally, and assumed we understand the difference between a little silly propaganda and a direct threat on someone's life?

You may trivialize it all you want -- the fact remains that the entire package in which she presents herself leaves a definite violent image. and the comparison between the two charts is not a balanced one.

I do not believe she is in any way responsible for what happened Saturday...I do believe she is being irresponsible as a public figure to not consider how her behavior, her words, and her implications influence others...and I believe that she misses an opportunity to show some leadership by taking the high road. She has refused to do this ever since McCain's operatives plucked her from obscurity to be part of the campaign... Her inability to do so is why I think she is not qualified to be an elected official. I am pretty sure that most voters -- in all parties -- have decided the same.

I think possibly Jon Stewart said it best:

Arizona Shootings Reaction - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 01/10/11 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

No, Palin's cross hairs has nothing to do with violence. :sarc:
This is from March 26th:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Republicans took to the House floor Thursday to plead with those who oppose the Democratic health care overhaul to refrain from violence and threats.
Opposition to the health care bill that President Barack Obama signed into law Wednesday is "no excuse for bigotry, threats or acts of vandalism and I condemn such things in the strongest possible terms," said Rep. Mike Pence of Indiana, the House's third-ranked Republican.
"Some of our colleagues have received threatening phone calls. A brick has been thrown, a window has been smashed. This is not the right way to respond," added Rep. Joseph Pitts, R-Pa., a leading anti-abortion lawmaker.
The remarks came a day after House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer said Democratic lawmakers were worried about their own safety and their families because of a rash of threats that followed the House vote Sunday sending the landmark health care legislation to the president.
While not directly criticizing Republicans, Hoyer warned against lawmakers against encouraging protesters into acts that might cross the line into threatening behavior.
"The bottom line is, we need to be very careful in public life that our rhetoric doesn't incite to violent acts," the Maryland Democrat said Thursday on a network morning news show. He said dealing with difficult issues in a civil and peaceful manner is "at the core of our democracy."
The FBI is working with lawmakers subjected to menacing obscenity-laced phone messages. In some instances, bricks were hurled through congressional offices, including Rep. Louise Slaughter's district headquarters in Niagara Falls, N.Y.
At least four Democratic offices in New York, Arizona and Kansas were struck and at least 10 members of Congress have reported some sort of threats, congressional leaders have said. No arrests had been made as of late Wednesday, but the FBI is still investigating.
Hoyer had said Wednesday that lawmakers who felt at risk were to get attention "from the proper authorities." He declined to say whether any were receiving extra security. Normally only those in leadership positions have personal security guards.

Slaughter, a Democrat, is chairwoman of an influential House committee. She said someone had left her a voice mail that used the word "snipers." Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., said "it's an effort to kind of hijack the debate by coercive elements. I'm glad the Republican leadership colleagues denounce it. But they were very late to do that."
Hoyer on Thursday did not single out any member of Congress or political party as having made statements that could encourage such acts. But he did say he thought some of the rhetoric "has been far beyond legitimate debate."
"In our democracy," he said, "we resolve things, not through violence, not at the point of a gun. If we don't do that, we will devolve into a society that we're not going to like."
"It is unacceptable in America," said Sen. John McCain. The Arizona Republican said angry citizens should channel their rage into voter registration for the next election and efforts to repeal the health care law.
House Republican leader John Boehner of Ohio said in a statement that while many Americans are angry over the bill's passage, "violence and threats are unacceptable."

Some of the anger spilled over in a flood of threat-filled phone and fax messages to the office of Rep. Bart Stupak, D-Mich. Stupak vowed to oppose the health care package unless given greater assurance that it would not allow federal funding of elective abortions. He voted in favor after the administration agreed.
Stupak's office released some of the messages, declining further comment.
"I hope you bleed ... (get) cancer and die," one male caller told the congressman between curses.
A fax with the title "Defecating on Stupak" carried a picture of a gallows with "Bart (SS) Stupak" on it and a noose attached. It was captioned, "All Baby Killers come to unseemly ends Either by the hand of man or by the hand of God."
The vandalism and threats surprised a researcher at a think tank that monitors extremist groups.
"I think it is astounding that we are seeing this wave of vigilantism," said Mark Potok of the Alabama-based Southern Poverty Law Center.
Hoyer said earlier that people have yelled that Democratic lawmakers should be put on firing lines and posters have appeared with the faces of lawmakers in the cross hairs of a target.
While not directly criticizing Republicans directly, he said "any show of appreciation for such actions encourages such action."
Gun imagery was used in a posting on the Facebook page of Sarah Palin urging people to organize against 20 House Democrats who voted for the health care bill and whose districts went for the John McCain-Palin ticket two years ago. Palin's post featured a U.S. map with circles and cross hairs over the 20 districts.
McCain defended Palin Thursday, saying it was commonplace practice and "part of the lexicon" to refer to "targeted" congressional districts.
In Virginia, someone cut a propane line leading to a grill at the Charlottesville home of U.S. Rep. Tom Perriello's brother after the address was posted online by activists angry about the health care overhaul. Perriello also said a threatening letter was sent to his brother's house. The FBI and local authorities were investigating.
Tea party activists had posted the brother's address online thinking it was the congressman's home. The post urged opponents to drop by and "express their thanks" for the Democrat's vote in favor of the sweeping health care reform.
Nigel Coleman, chairman of the Danville Tea Party, said he re-posted the comment that originated on another conservative blog, including the address, Monday on his Facebook page. The posts were taken down after the mistake was discovered.
"We've never been associated with any violence or any vandalism," he said. "We're definitely sorry that we posted the incorrect address."

and this is very prophetic: Aired March 25th

YouTube - Elizabeth Hasselbeck: Sarah Palin's Crosshairs Ad 'Despicable' 03/2010 View Clip - Eerie

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There's a reason Jon Stewart is respected by many ...............

"I urge everyone: Read up about those who were hurt and or killed in this shooting," Stewart said. "You will be comforted by just how much anonymous goodness there really is in the world. You read about these people and you realize that people that you don't even know, that you have never met, are leading lives of real dignity and goodness. And you hear about crazy, but it's rarer than you think."
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Arizona Shootings Reaction - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 01/10/11 - Video Clip | Comedy Central


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You may trivialize it all you want -- the fact remains that the entire package in which she presents herself leaves a definite violent image. and the comparison between the two charts is not a balanced one.

I do not believe she is in any way responsible for what happened Saturday...I do believe she is being irresponsible as a public figure to not consider how her behavior, her words, and her implications influence others...and I believe that she misses an opportunity to show some leadership by taking the high road. She has refused to do this ever since McCain's operatives plucked her from obscurity to be part of the campaign... Her inability to do so is why I think she is not qualified to be an elected official. I am pretty sure that most voters -- in all parties -- have decided the same.

On Palin's ability to handle the public spotlight or her capability in handling the responsibilities of elected office, I agree. She's not prone to making the best decisions. That's not what this thread has centered on so I appreciate you making that distinction.

I think possibly Jon Stewart said it best:

Arizona Shootings Reaction - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 01/10/11 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

I agree. As usual, he gets right to the heart of the issue.