13,000 protest Governor's plan to change collective bargaining for public employees

Ah ok.. I was having a hard time following you here -



Does that pension payment get a COLA while they are retired?

Lets assume they work for thirty three years (22 -> 55) and live to 82. Their top base salary when they leave (in 2010 dollars) would be 61K. So...

1.6% * 33 = 53% * 61K = 33K + (($5 * 33 = $165) * 12) = 35K

Retirement years would be about 28, so 28 * 35K = $980,000.00.

Take that and devide it by the number of years worked: $980,000.00 / 33 = 30K.

So their actul salary is whatever they make annually plus $30,000.00 in future benefits.

So a Walton County teacher with a BA really makes 65K to start, and at retirement, they'll be making about 100K.

I wonder if pension contributions are taxed?

They don't contribute so no they are not taxed, but their retirement income will be taxed. As for your assumption I venture a guess they are not seeing 100,000 a year after retirment. The former President of NWF State College, retirement was over 100k and I can assure you he was making more than a school teacher.

The former prez is also looking at losing his pension if the trial in March doesn't go in his favor.

They don't contribute so no they are not taxed, but their retirement income will be taxed. As for your assumption I venture a guess they are not seeing 100,000 a year after retirment. The former President of NWF State College, retirement was over 100k and I can assure you he was making more than a school teacher.

That was the calculation of real salary after they reach their top pay rate and assuming they start work at 22 and retire at 55, based on this:

http://www.walton.k12.fl.us/Employees/contracts/i/insss.pdf

What do you mean they don't contribute? I thought you said they contribute 11% per year to their pension?

No the employer puts in approx 11% towards the retirement. Under FRS there is no employee contribution which is what has the FRS participants POed. If you pay someone 25000 a year and then expect to make them pay 5% of base, and they have not recieved a raise in 3-5 years it just seems they are getting screwed. They provide a service, they should be compensated. All these folks who feel state workers make so much, go talk to a Division of Forestry Worker and ask what they make, then go talk to a college professor and you will see a large diffence. Both jobs are important. Go to some of your county employees and find out what they are making and ask them when their last pay raise was and then follow them around for the day and see if they are worth it. I have searched but have been unable to find the article that gave the cost of Government by State and Florida was among the lowest and it seems we did it without a State income tax. Sure wish I could find that darn thing.

interesting article about the campaign to get rid of collective bargaining...it seems that "union" has moved ahead of "government", in the demonization list the right has devised.

The Betrayal of Public Workers | The Nation

As John Schmitt of the Center for Economic Policy Research recently showed, when state and local government employees are matched against private sector workers of the same age and educational levels, the public workers earn, on average, about 4 percent less than their private counterparts. Moreover, the results of Schmitt?s apples-to-apples comparison are fully consistent with numerous studies examining this same question over the past twenty years. One has to suspect that the pundits who have overlooked these basic findings have chosen not to look

interesting study on public and private compensation and benefits:http://www.slge.org/vertical/Sites/...ds/{03E820E8-F0F9-472F-98E2-F0AE1166D116}.PDF

There are several implications of our exercise. First, the compensation of state and local workers is not excessive. Second, this remains true when including benefits. Third, the pattern of results over the last 20 years has generally been one of declining relative earnings of state and local workers compared to similar private sector workers. Fourth, this remains true in most of the states that we examined, although some heterogeneity exists. These implications lead to the policy prescription that now is not the time to advocate for large-scale rollbacks in the compensation of state and local workers. Although the current recession calls for equal sacrifice, the long-term pattern indicates that state and local workers are not, on average, overcompensated. If the goal is to compensate state and local sector employees in a manner comparable to those in the private sector, the data do not call for reductions in state and local wages. If anything, they call for increases

According to the governor on CNN, they basically agreed to this knowing that they could use collective bargaining to force the rates and benefits back up after the storm blew over. Hence the need for ending that. If you can catch a replay of his press conference I'd suggest it, it's pretty enlightening.

Yes it was. I wonder how many on SoWal except you and I saw it. It was also carried on FOX.

No the employer puts in approx 11% towards the retirement. Under FRS there is no employee contribution which is what has the FRS participants POed. If you pay someone 25000 a year and then expect to make them pay 5% of base, and they have not recieved a raise in 3-5 years it just seems they are getting screwed. They provide a service, they should be compensated. All these folks who feel state workers make so much, go talk to a Division of Forestry Worker and ask what they make, then go talk to a college professor and you will see a large diffence. Both jobs are important. Go to some of your county employees and find out what they are making and ask them when their last pay raise was and then follow them around for the day and see if they are worth it. I have searched but have been unable to find the article that gave the cost of Government by State and Florida was among the lowest and it seems we did it without a State income tax. Sure wish I could find that darn thing.

It is a pay cut, there's no doubt about that.

Overall though, I don't understand why you think a pension system is so great. You are basically agreeing to receiving a very large chunk of your salary as a deferred payment, and placing complete trust in government to keep that commitment to boot. That's crazy! 😀 If I were working for the state, I would be pushing for full payment up front, so that workers receive full salary and have complete control over money that is rightfully theirs.

interesting study on public and private compensation and benefits:http://www.slge.org/vertical/Sites/%7BA260E1DF-5AEE-459D-84C4-876EFE1E4032%7D/uploads/%7B03E820E8-F0F9-472F-98E2-F0AE1166D116%7D.PDF

That survey primarily involved wage comparison. For benefit compensation they barley scratched the surface. (It's the addendum section at the end.)

Plus their numbers don't seem to match what we are seeing in our local example here. quote:

Table 4 (p. 15) presents the relevant shares for two private sector samples and for the combination of state and local government. The total private firm sample has earnings that are approximately 71 percent of total compensation, while the large-firm private sector sample has an earnings share of 69 percent and the state and local sample has an earnings share of about 67 percent. These shares make clear that benefits are a slightly larger share of compensation in state and local government, although not dramatically different, particularly when compared to larger private sector firms.

For the example we have been discussing here, benefits make up anywhere between 50% at starting to 32% at retirement. With the average being somewhere in the middle depending on how fast earning rise. (Somewhere around 58%.)

Ah, we already have a state based 401K:

Investment Plan

So this is what SB 1130 and SB 1128 are trying to do, end the defined benefit program and place all new employees in the investment plan.

Pension reform: Dozens protest overhaul of city and state retirement plans. - OrlandoSentinel.com

This makes total sense.

Ah, we already have a state based 401K:

Investment Plan

So this is what SB 1130 and SB 1128 are trying to do, end the defined benefit program and place all new employees in the investment plan.

Pension reform: Dozens protest overhaul of city and state retirement plans. - OrlandoSentinel.com

This makes total sense.

It may and it may not make total sense. When I worked for a state government, I definitely made less than my private enterprise counterparts at the time. I considered my state retirement of benefit somewhere down the road. On that, and at that time, I was correct. There is a modicum of risk involve here as with any fixed income that will be received on a deferred basis. I see no reason why federal, state and local government employees should not be required to contribute in some manner to their retirement. I do not agree, however, that pensions are a poor idea. I have stated "why" previously.

It is a pay cut, there's no doubt about that.

Overall though, I don't understand why you think a pension system is so great. You are basically agreeing to receiving a very large chunk of your salary as a deferred payment, and placing complete trust in government to keep that commitment to boot. That's crazy! 😀 If I were working for the state, I would be pushing for full payment up front, so that workers receive full salary and have complete control over money that is rightfully theirs.

Much like you do what you do, we do what we do. Listen to the hue and cry from the politicians how we are making too much money as it is and they want it back, no matter the cost to those who chose to work for government. You may have chosen to not belong to a Union or were forbidden due to your position in the company. I chose my career and have educated myself to perfom 2 jobs within it. I feel I have earned the money I have recieved and resent those that feel I am overpaid or have more benefits than I deserve. I notice that when people advise we must all sacrifice they are talking about the government employee must make that sacrifice. I notice not very many companies are interested in not increasing the cost of their products at this time, to ensure their stockholders get their dividend, I notice the banks gave raises and auto companies gave raises, but because we are government employees we can do without. No matter we have bills to pay, just like you. We have hopes and dreams for the future, just like you, we have kids who we want to go to college and be and do better than ourselves. Not everyone is cut out for the corporate world or management, there have to be ditch diggers, secretaries, cops, soldiers and the like. We pay taxes too.

Much like you do what you do, we do what we do. Listen to the hue and cry from the politicians how we are making too much money as it is and they want it back, no matter the cost to those who chose to work for government. You may have chosen to not belong to a Union or were forbidden due to your position in the company. I chose my career and have educated myself to perfom 2 jobs within it. I feel I have earned the money I have recieved and resent those that feel I am overpaid or have more benefits than I deserve. I notice that when people advise we must all sacrifice they are talking about the government employee must make that sacrifice. I notice not very many companies are interested in not increasing the cost of their products at this time, to ensure their stockholders get their dividend, I notice the banks gave raises and auto companies gave raises, but because we are government employees we can do without. No matter we have bills to pay, just like you. We have hopes and dreams for the future, just like you, we have kids who we want to go to college and be and do better than ourselves. Not everyone is cut out for the corporate world or management, there have to be ditch diggers, secretaries, cops, soldiers and the like. We pay taxes too.

You should be paid appropriately. I'm just saying I think civil service employees take a huge risk by putting their faith in government when they could very easily have their money in hand today. Especially in light of everything that's going on. I would think a lot of state employees would be rethinking this decision.

They would be coming after that also, although I understand your point.

They would be coming after that also, although I understand your point.

I see 30ashopper's point as well. My take on it is this. I have no monthly income that is not government related. That said, I also believe that if that income is negated or severely cut,and I mean severely, we are all in deep, deep trouble. In such a case I will not be alone.

Much like you do what you do, we do what we do. Listen to the hue and cry from the politicians how we are making too much money as it is and they want it back, no matter the cost to those who chose to work for government. You may have chosen to not belong to a Union or were forbidden due to your position in the company. I chose my career and have educated myself to perfom 2 jobs within it. I feel I have earned the money I have recieved and resent those that feel I am overpaid or have more benefits than I deserve. I notice that when people advise we must all sacrifice they are talking about the government employee must make that sacrifice. I notice not very many companies are interested in not increasing the cost of their products at this time, to ensure their stockholders get their dividend, I notice the banks gave raises and auto companies gave raises, but because we are government employees we can do without. No matter we have bills to pay, just like you. We have hopes and dreams for the future, just like you, we have kids who we want to go to college and be and do better than ourselves. Not everyone is cut out for the corporate world or management, there have to be ditch diggers, secretaries, cops, soldiers and the like. We pay taxes too.

I think this is what bothers me the most about the whole situation. That the ultra-conservative wing of our political world seems to have contempt for the public employee.

There is no respect for the people who chose to serve in government as the staff members and workers who hold up the safety net of our society.

What has happened to the idea that to be a public servant is a positive thing? What has happened to the respect given to school teachers, to firefighters, to policemen/women and those who work in the offices or who maintain our roads and bridges or wear the uniform of the military..?

it seems lately that all the statesmen/women have fled to some other world, and the Congress and Legislatures around the country are occupied by irrational ones who have no idea of sacrifice... and hold the idea that the ones who work for our state or country are to be looked down upon.. with distain...

that now the only goal to achieve is the one of $$profit making.

No teacher has ever gone into the profession to become a millionaire...yet, all of our children have benefited from their passion to teach.

If our house is on fire we want a qualified fire fighter to come and save it...

if we are being attacked or robbed we want a qualified law enforcement officer to come to our aid and quickly...

when we have a hurricane or an earthquake we expect the government to come and save people from the disaster...when the snow storms come we expect the men and women to be out at all hours of day and night to clear the roads and runways.

..and when our country needs defending (or sometimes even when it doesn't) we expect the men and women who wear the uniform to step up to the plate and take care of us....

people who vote for "tea party" candidates expect their social security checks to continue; their medicare to cover their medical needs;
their retirement checks to continue; they expect to be able to visit a national park when they want to; to drive on roads that are open; to be protected.... yet, in their world,

we can only find one way to reduce the deficit caused by the ones on Wall Street:

cut the pensions of those who chose to serve our country in jobs that pay less and ask for more and more and more...while both the compensation and respect is less and less and less.

It is a sad state of affairs IMO.

Conservatives constantly rail against too much government and loss of our freedoms such as (falsely) claiming a government takeover of our healthcare system. Why is this same hysterical outrage not being directed at the obvious efforts to dismantle workers rights?

It is hereby declared to be the policy of the United States to...encourag[e] the practice and procedure of collective bargaining and [to] protect...the exercise by workers of full freedom of association, self-organization and designation of representatives of their own choosing, for the purpose of negotiating the terms and conditions of their employment or other mutual aid or protection.
?National Labor Relations Act

I can not understand the persistant and unrelenting attacks on the working men and women in our country by the right, they/we are not the enemy. The above act was needed because corporations did not include safety and working conditions of its workers in their business models. Unions have from their origin negotiated wages and benefits with employers, hence the term "collective bargaining". No one gains if a company goes into bankruptcy but workers are always an easy scapegoat for poor decisions made by management. Sadly a large segment of our citizens now want to use them as a scapegoat for the poor decisions of our politicians.

Conservatives constantly rail against too much government and loss of our freedoms such as (falsely) claiming a government takeover of our healthcare system. Why is this same hysterical outrage not being directed at the obvious efforts to dismantle workers rights?



I can not understand the persistant and unrelenting attacks on the working men and women in our country by the right, they/we are not the enemy. The above act was needed because corporations did not include safety and working conditions of its workers in their business models. Unions have from their origin negotiated wages and benefits with employers, hence the term "collective bargaining". No one gains if a company goes into bankruptcy but workers are always an easy scapegoat for poor decisions made by management. Sadly a large segment of our citizens now want to use them as a scapegoat for the poor decisions of our politicians.

I can't understand it either--because it seems many who identify themselves as "part of the right" are also members of the working/middle class and will be hurt financially and otherwise if the right's efforts are realized.

I have wondered for years how people who will be adversely affected, justify voting for the very candidates who espouse the policies that will hurt their lifestyle.

But, then, I wonder too how the people of Florida chose to vote for a governor who looks upon our state with such disrespect...who knows what makes people do what they do?

I think this is what bothers me the most about the whole situation. That the ultra-conservative wing of our political world seems to have contempt for the public employee.

There is no respect for the people who chose to serve in government as the staff members and workers who hold up the safety net of our society.

I can only speak for myself.. I do not have contempt for civil serivce employees, what I do feel is contempt for their unions. 😀 Please don't try and spin this into some sort of "conservatives hate the middle class" issue.

FDR, the father of the organized labor movement, felt government workers should not be afforded the right to unionize or to have collective bargaining. His signature organized labor bill, The Wagner Act specifically excluded these groups of workers. He knew what he was doing.