I think we're about to declare war on Libya

I wonder why this sudden international resolve is aimed at Lybia, but not Iran, etc., where pro-democracy movements have been brutally put down?

I guess they ascertain who doesn't have the ability to fight back and go after that target.

Of course, it does seem strange that action has been taken where financial matters are most at risk.

Very interesting.

It's Libya's turn - we overthrew Iran's government in '53 for oil and then propped up a dictator for a quarter century.

They just need to be patient - it will be their turn again soon. :roll:

When I was right smack dab in the middle of the first Gulf War (Desert Storm), I was on the U.S.S. Tarawa as an Air Traffic Controller - in other words, I didn't do squat but play guitar and eat myself into a stupor because there was no bad weather and the pilots didn't need us.

I remember going over there totally gung-ho, rarin' to do my part to help lay the smack down. A patriot and whatnot. Felt the same way when we were bombing Iranian oil wells and boats, when off the coast of Russia playing games with those suckers, when irritating the Chinese by hanging off their coast - it was all a real hoot.

Unfortunately, I have this problem wherein my mind won't settle for a surface answer or appearance, and I habitually question everything - a habit that got me into plenty of hot water while I was in the military, but also one which enabled me to weasel out of that trouble repeatedly and make rank faster than the average bear.

But there came a moment, right in the middle of it all, when I was sitting in the dark at a radar console at two or three in the morning - sweating my giblets off in a biological warfare suit because a scud missile had just splashed down about a thousand yards off our stern - and the thought occurred to me that I was a complete idiot for being there risking my life for what I intuitively realized was an entirely oil-based deception.

That moment is always crystal clear in my mind, despite all the drunken ports of call that have erased most other fond memories from that time period.

When I got back to the states, I was a changed man. I distrust all claims to authority, I challenge all convention, and I have so deeply studied the realities of human nature and the mind that I absolutely don't place my hope in so-called 'leaders' or elected officials, because they are all helpless in the face of significant events.

The main thing I got out of it is to always seek the motivation behind the spin, and to realize that people are being killed by the tens of thousands over the past couple decades not because of any ideal, but because there are profits to be made, and that the more that continues to happen, the more enemies will be generated to ensure the cycle continues.

We are not fighting over what's right. We are fighting because, for a very long time now, we have not done what's truly right.

I have spoken to various fellows who bring up a "What Would You Do?" scenario regarding seeing a neighbor physically beat his wife.

"What Would You Do?"

Would you interfere to stop him, possibly getting into a fight yourself, risking your own skin - POSSIBLY running the risk that SHE WOULD TURN ON YOU, too?

Or would you leave it alone and let her deal with the fact that she hitched up with such a monster?

There was a time when there was no 'question' - I'd jump in there to save the day, but then I actually witnessed another guy do the same only to have the battered and bloody woman attack him to defend her abusive man. That turned out badly because he wound up having to kick both their butts. Lo and behold, a short time later, she was eating fist sandwiches again, and nobody stepped in to help her.

Not long after that, me and some of the fellas were hanging at my crib and a young lady who lived a few doors down from me was being beaten out front of my door (as per a regular schedule of weekly abuse) by her military boyfriend. People had called the cops in the past but she kept bringing the guy back into her life, so people stopped calling the cops.

I'd had a few and I was fed up with it, so I went 'half way' and yelled to the guy to stop messing up my good time (of course, what I was really telling him to do was stop beating the woman, but used my party as the 'cover' excuse). He glared at me and ordered her down to her place where we could hear her screaming and crying in the distance as he continued his attack.

Next thing ya know me, my roomie, and the rest of the fellows were doing a full-force entry into her crib through the door and front window to beat that coward down like a dog. It's like we were possessed. He ran out the door yelling like a little girl with no shirt or shoes in the cold - hauling it down the street screaming for his life. I told her that if he comes back, then she would be on her own.

Strangely, he never came back.

Despite what I told her, we were hoping he would give it one more shot, because we were on the lookout for a couple weeks, just itching to beat the crap out of him.

Now, what does this have to do with Libya.

Hmmmmm....

It's the QUESTION, really.

What would you do if your neighbor was beating his wife who is desperate to be free from his monstrous oppression?

Maybe you wouldn't go in unilaterally - even though you might have the firepower. You might have condemnation raining down on you, that it is "none of your business." That's cuz the COMMUNITY is allowing the injustice to happen.

Maybe you take a stand and remind your community of what's right, and then you and the other neighbors just get together and decide that kind of behavior is not acceptable, and you all go in and straighten things out, making things better for the whole community.

Or maybe you just sit there and listen to the screaming and watch the blood run until they finally cart her off in an ambulance to have the funeral a few days later.

What Would You Do?

I'd tell her to leave or to fight her own battles.

A better version of your story would be:

There are many countries where some portion of the population is in revolt against the current government and being treated most unpleasantly. Were this analogy correct and driving the Libya decision, we'd be just as obligated to implement no-fly zones over Russia to protect the Chechens, over China to protect the Uighurs, Syria and Turkey to protect the Kurds, etc...

If this is how we deal with moral obligations, then what about our obligation to fix things in countries where the despots are starving the populace (Kim in N. Korea, Mugabe in Zimbabwe, etc..?) Why haven't we rounded up a few outraged countries and gone in and fixed those countries too?

Based on that, we also definitely should have had an obligation to come to the defense of Georgia when the Russians attacked it several years ago. That was international aggression where one country launched a sneak attack on another. That seems far more egregious to me than internal strife within one country.

Where do you draw the line? And how do you justify whatever the basis for drawing that line is?

Morality as an excuse for intervention in Libya is more of a convenient rationalization than an actual reason. If Libya were somewhere other than sitting on top of 4.5B barrels of oil, this would all be a non-event.

The Metallica reference was a joke. I can't stand them either. (I don't hate kittens either.) I think I want to be Stephen Colbert. Will anybody give me a talk show?

Do it- follow your dreams:wub:

Arab League condemns broad bombing campaign in Libya

And so it begins... From the Washington Post article "Arab League condemns broad bombing campaign in Libya"(emphasis is mine):

Moussa said the Arab League?s approval of a no-fly zone on March 12 was based on a desire to prevent Moammar Gaddafi?s air force from attacking civilians and was not designed to endorse the intense bombing and missile attacks ? including on Tripoli, the capital, and on Libyan ground forces ? whose images have filled Arab television screens for two days.

Can anyone reasonably claim to be surprised? I'm sure the coverage on Arab television will go a long ways towards improving relations between the West and the Middle East.

Hmmm....all these Countries falling into mass rebellion. Rather hard not to consider that these events are being manipulated. By who, and who stands to gain?

Tunisia, Egypt, Algeria, Jordan,Yemen, Libya, Bahrain, Syria, Saudi Arabia

Hmmm....all these Countries falling into mass rebellion. Rather hard not to consider that these events are being manipulated. By who, and who stands to gain?

Tunisia, Egypt, Algeria, Jordan,Yemen, Libya, Bahrain, Syria, Saudi Arabia

Major global economic crises have a funny habit of causing this.

Yes, we must liberate that oil. As Stephen Colbert pointed out, God made a big boo-boo when he put our oil underneath their land. :cool:

You'd think that, with all the "liberated" oil, that we'd not be paying $3.59 per gallon for mid-grade gas......:idontno:

I'd tell her to leave or to fight her own battles.

A better version of your story would be:

Your neighbor, who has a lot of old car parts in his backyard is beating his wife. She is also hitting him as well. Its getting worse and you're afraid that she'll want to move in with some of you (which you definitely DON"T want to happen.) Further, you and your neighbors all have old cars that barely run and all need some of those parts that he keeps in his backyard. If you help her, you're thinking that she'll be grateful and give you a deal on those parts which you desperately need. You could buy them other places, but you think it will probably be cheaper to get them from her. Even if she won't give you a deal, it at least gives you another place to get them as they become more scarce.
​

There are many countries where some portion of the population is in revolt against the current government and being treated most unpleasantly. Were this analogy correct and driving the Libya decision, we'd be just as obligated to implement no-fly zones over Russia to protect the Chechens, over China to protect the Uighurs, Syria and Turkey to protect the Kurds, etc...

If this is how we deal with moral obligations, then what about our obligation to fix things in countries where the despots are starving the populace (Kim in N. Korea, Mugabe in Zimbabwe, etc..?) Why haven't we rounded up a few outraged countries and gone in and fixed those countries too?

Based on that, we also definitely should have had an obligation to come to the defense of Georgia when the Russians attacked it several years ago. That was international aggression where one country launched a sneak attack on another. That seems far more egregious to me than internal strife within one country.

Where do you draw the line? And how do you justify whatever the basis for drawing that line is?

Morality as an excuse for intervention in Libya is more of a convenient rationalization than an actual reason. If Libya were somewhere other than sitting on top of 4.5B barrels of oil, this would all be a non-event.

We're currently using the reasoning: "tick me off, and I'll kick your butt...". Keel jur own peeples, and we keel ju.

And so it begins... From the Washington Post article "Arab League condemns broad bombing campaign in Libya"(emphasis is mine):

Can anyone reasonably claim to be surprised? I'm sure the coverage on Arab television will go a long ways towards improving relations between the West and the Middle East.

Darned tootin' there's no surprise.

I'd tell her to leave or to fight her own battles.

A better version of your story would be:

Your neighbor, who has a lot of old car parts in his backyard is beating his wife. She is also hitting him as well. Its getting worse and you're afraid that she'll want to move in with some of you (which you definitely DON"T want to happen.) Further, you and your neighbors all have old cars that barely run and all need some of those parts that he keeps in his backyard. If you help her, you're thinking that she'll be grateful and give you a deal on those parts which you desperately need. You could buy them other places, but you think it will probably be cheaper to get them from her. Even if she won't give you a deal, it at least gives you another place to get them as they become more scarce.​

That was BRILLIANT!

It's the biggest scam in the world - we have plenty of parts in our own back yard, but to get to them we risk making a mess. A few in our community make a killing on importing those parts and marking the prices up - plus the local government gets a share in taxing the parts. So when pitchforks are raised and the torches lit to go over and begin pushing and shoving, it's not because we're looking to rescue her, but because of what we can GET from her. Now, if the abusive husband puts on enough of a good show and makes nicey nice and hugs his baby and tosses a few diamonds her way and promises not to slap her around anymore, we go and pretend nothing happened as we give him civic awards for most improved hubby. We then start tradin' with him while she fades from memory.

Months later, the crap starts all over again.

Maybe we should just stop tradin' with 'em?

Maybe she picks up a cast iron skillet and beats him mercilessly upside the head and takes over the house and we don't need to do anything.

Major global economic crises have a funny habit of causing this.

That's the best surface excuse, but, I am not buying.

These Countries had these problems long before a global economic meltdown. Besides, take Syria for example, they started permitting private banks and insurers to open shop and by letting Syrians hold foreign currency without risk of being tossed in jail. In March of 2009 they opened Syria's first stock exchange. Nearby are a Ford showroom and a KFC restaurant.

When we start looking harder than what the mass media feeds us, patterns start to arise, like Banking.

I have spoken to various fellows who bring up a "What Would You Do?" scenario regarding seeing a neighbor physically beat his wife.

"What Would You Do?"

Would you interfere to stop him, possibly getting into a fight yourself, risking your own skin - POSSIBLY running the risk that SHE WOULD TURN ON YOU, too?

Or would you leave it alone and let her deal with the fact that she hitched up with such a monster?

There was a time when there was no 'question' - I'd jump in there to save the day, but then I actually witnessed another guy do the same only to have the battered and bloody woman attack him to defend her abusive man. That turned out badly because he wound up having to kick both their butts. Lo and behold, a short time later, she was eating fist sandwiches again, and nobody stepped in to help her.

Not long after that, me and some of the fellas were hanging at my crib and a young lady who lived a few doors down from me was being beaten out front of my door (as per a regular schedule of weekly abuse) by her military boyfriend. People had called the cops in the past but she kept bringing the guy back into her life, so people stopped calling the cops.

I'd had a few and I was fed up with it, so I went 'half way' and yelled to the guy to stop messing up my good time (of course, what I was really telling him to do was stop beating the woman, but used my party as the 'cover' excuse). He glared at me and ordered her down to her place where we could hear her screaming and crying in the distance as he continued his attack.

Next thing ya know me, my roomie, and the rest of the fellows were doing a full-force entry into her crib through the door and front window to beat that coward down like a dog. It's like we were possessed. He ran out the door yelling like a little girl with no shirt or shoes in the cold - hauling it down the street screaming for his life. I told her that if he comes back, then she would be on her own.

Strangely, he never came back.

Despite what I told her, we were hoping he would give it one more shot, because we were on the lookout for a couple weeks, just itching to beat the crap out of him.

Now, what does this have to do with Libya.

Hmmmmm....

It's the QUESTION, really.

What would you do if your neighbor was beating his wife who is desperate to be free from his monstrous oppression?

Maybe you wouldn't go in unilaterally - even though you might have the firepower. You might have condemnation raining down on you, that it is "none of your business." That's cuz the COMMUNITY is allowing the injustice to happen.

Maybe you take a stand and remind your community of what's right, and then you and the other neighbors just get together and decide that kind of behavior is not acceptable, and you all go in and straighten things out, making things better for the whole community.

Or maybe you just sit there and listen to the screaming and watch the blood run until they finally cart her off in an ambulance to have the funeral a few days later.

What Would You Do?

MMF, This analogy poses excellent food-for- thought as to the definitions of "neighbor", "proximity", and "justification".

FBB describes the case of neighbor being 'one with something you want/need to get' (and what, if anything, you're willing to give in return for that something).

Mango describes a far away coalition-of-neighbors banding together in neighborly fashion to manipulate hungry-customer-neighbors. (Scooterbug might also describe this sort of good-neighbor as walmrK!).

My personal definition of neighbor becomes increasingly smaller, tighter, and closer to home... i.e. in close enough proximity to be looked directly in the eye on a regular basis. My own dear Mother is not my neighbor due to our living 1100 miles apart.

The technological ability to locate someone 6000 miles away on google maps or spot Mars through a telescope does not qualify as neighbor... no more than some 798th-crak-book-friend-uva-friend has the ability to truly be a 'friend'.

I'm undoubtedly getting old, cynical, and cranky... but IMHO the 'language' associated with globalization de-volved into the downright ridonkulous, superficial, and disingenuous.

Countries and people 1/2 way around the world are not my neighbors, not my friends, and not my family. I accept no responsibility for/to them. Those countries have "a thing" to sell and they have the right to get as much $ for it as their customers continue to pay. If, as customers, we disagree with their business philosophy then it is a peaceful choice to stop buying their products... but NOT the right to sit in THEIR parking lot, shooting missiles at them because we don't like how they calculate their markup, wear their clothes, or sweeten their tea.

So WHAT WOULD I DO (Strive To Do)?
*Want only what I have or am personally capable of creating and willing to sustain.
*Accept that I'm human and my abilities are proximally finite.
*Understand and honor the boundaries of my own finite capacities.
*Try always to: "Do unto others..."
'cuz dam-straight with all the trouble I have keeping 'my own house' in order, I certainly have no right to force change on anybody else's 'housekeeping' habits.