Rifles used by U.S. troops include Bible verse inscriptions - USATODAY.com Rifles used by U.S. troops include Bible verse inscriptions
WASHINGTON (AP) ? Combat rifle sights used by U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan carry references to Bible verses, stoking concerns about whether the inscriptions break a government rule that bars proselytizing by American troops.
Military officials said the citations don't violate the ban and they won't stop using the telescoping sights, which allow troops to pinpoint the enemy day or night.Markings on the Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight, which is standard issue to U.S. special operations forces, include "JN8:12," a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life,"' according to the King James version of the Bible.
The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.
Photos posted on a Defense Department website show Iraqi forces training with rifles equipped with the inscribed sights.
The Defense Department is a major customer of Trijicon's. In 2009 alone, the Marine Corps signed deals worth $66 million for the company's products. Trijicon's scopes and optical devices for guns range in cost from a few hundred dollars to $13,000, according to the company's website.
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SWGB
Now that is very funny.
Re: the new avatar, are you educating us to Canadian slang or disgruntled with a Canadian.
One of them cut me off today pulling out of a parking lot and then proceeded to drive 15 mph for over 2 miles.
I couldn't find that said more specifically "Ontario Canadians are eh' holes".
I thought aleonard meant you were a guy, now I know you're a lipstick like me
Sometimes its better to wait for the smoke to clear before you speak cause people are thinking you meant one thing when actually you meant something entirely different. People's emotions get involved and there is gunfire, but nothing is accomplished. I may not speak in the same manner as you so it is best to let the pistols cool so communication can actually happen. I possibly come from an entirely different background than you and have a different way of looking at things. I may not handle situations the same way you would and you may not handle them the same way I would or agree with it. There is also the possibility that we may never see eye to eye. I look for common ground, right now it is just lipstickLet's see what can be accomplished later over time
Having my night-time drink, strong coffee.
Have a great night
I'm a guy and my lipstick color is Are You Red-dy by Maybelline. Thanks to punzy for that find.
Beach Fanatic
One of them cut me off today pulling out of a parking lot and then proceeded to drive 15 mph for over 2 miles.
I couldn't find that said more specifically "Ontario Canadians are eh' holes".
Beach Fanatic
SWGB
Red-dy by Maybelline
View attachment 15916
That's the stuff. Got me propositioned a couple of times.
Beach Fanatic
Jdarg in response to your question I looked up these words: 
1. discuss- to talk or write about (a topic) in detail, taking into account
different ideas and opinions
2. argue- give reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea, action, or
theory, typically with the aim of persuading others to share one's
view in a heated or angry way
3. debate- a formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or
legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put
forward,with the intent being, to consider a possible course of
action in one's mind before reaching a decision
4. motive- reason for doing something, especially one that is hidden or not
obvious
1. discuss- to talk or write about (a topic) in detail, taking into account
different ideas and opinions
2. argue- give reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea, action, or
theory, typically with the aim of persuading others to share one's
view in a heated or angry way
3. debate- a formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or
legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put
forward,with the intent being, to consider a possible course of
action in one's mind before reaching a decision
4. motive- reason for doing something, especially one that is hidden or not
obvious
Beach Fanatic
Geez, this will teach me to go to bed early! ;-)
Aleonard, thank you for speaking up in my defense! Its nice to know that I am regarded well enough to merit your concern.
BH- I can tell your a woman of very strong opinions, but I can say you come across as insulting sometimes. I honestly can't tell if your doing it on purpose or not.
As for lipstick, my knowledge is limited to how to launder it out of my clothing if necessary, though I like that color.
Aleonard, thank you for speaking up in my defense! Its nice to know that I am regarded well enough to merit your concern.
BH- I can tell your a woman of very strong opinions, but I can say you come across as insulting sometimes. I honestly can't tell if your doing it on purpose or not.
As for lipstick, my knowledge is limited to how to launder it out of my clothing if necessary, though I like that color. 
Beach Fanatic
I can defend someone on this board who is never mean to anyone if I like, thank you. I disagreed with your statement about them and you're on an internet forum, everyone is a first party to everything. If it's private, go to PM.
I missed what BH said regarding DTI. DTI is the KINDEST and he was totally trying to help. Don't you see that BH when you re-read his post? I sure do. And YES AL totally has the right to stand up for him when you were jumped on him - IMO
G
SoWal Expert
Jdarg in response to your question I looked up these words:
1. discuss- to talk or write about (a topic) in detail, taking into account
different ideas and opinions
2. argue- give reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea, action, or
theory, typically with the aim of persuading others to share one's
view in a heated or angry way
3. debate- a formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or
legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put
forward,with the intent being, to consider a possible course of
action in one's mind before reaching a decision
4. motive- reason for doing something, especially one that is hidden or not
obvious
Thank you . I was unaware of their definitions.
Back to the discussion of this topic. Or maybe it was derailed for good. Too bad- it was interesting and I wasn't aware this was going on.
Beach Fanatic
BH might need to switch from strong coffee to herb tea
Beach Fanatic
Oh now I have to get myself out of another mess- darn that passion! Aleonard was right that I appeared rude, I say appeared because I'll tell you why in a minute. Douglas the Intrepid is correct in saying that I come across as insulting, although not intentional. That's funny about the tea, Gidget, but grew up on New orleans mud beans so I'll stick with it. Yes, Douglas the Intrepid IS nice and reminds me of my brother so that is how I was speaking to him. It was done in love cause me and my brother were straight out with each other about what we thought. How stupid is that? Well, I admit it went over like a tidal wave. So let me go ahead and apologize once again for thinking you know me and know where I'm coming from. My intentions were good, but the delivery sucked. Foot sandwich anyone? 
If anybody else wants to say something you can, I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Love you all- actually I'm not sure I can say that, but I don't know what else to say. Your comments are always welcome 
If anybody else wants to say something you can, I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Love you all- actually I'm not sure I can say that, but I don't know what else to say. Your comments are always welcome 
SoWal Expert
Thank you . I was unaware of their definitions.
Back to the discussion of this topic. Or maybe it was derailed for good. Too bad- it was interesting and I wasn't aware this was going on.
Yep - BH if you don't like the discussion topic find another, don't derail one others are actually interested in discussing.
Beach Fanatic
Yep - BH if you don't like the discussion topic find another, don't derail one others are actually interested in discussing.It is very obvious from reading this thread that no one appears to have been shot at in a combat situation. If they had, they would know that those shooting back could care less about what is inscribed on their weapon, only that it is the best possible and accomplishes the mission for which it was designed.
SoWal Insider
Andy,
I agree that in a firefight no one cares what is inscribed on who's gun, but with Christianity's history of the crusades in that region and the public being told this is about safety and the reason we are in their land is to protect ourselves and not to impose a secular will upon them, well, that's murky now with this. I had a conversation with a pastor over this yesterday and he was horrified by it. First, that Jesus words would ever be acquainted with killing people and that our government would purchase weapons with any religious message on them, with the history of war over religion in that region and the purchase coming from taxpayers. (He said he would like to see if it had been a different religion, how people would behave then.) He and I both knew the answer and so do most others.
Personally, I want our people to have what they need to come home safe, but I am upset that this is one more wrinkle in a war that wasn't supposed to exist. Kinda like the news this week about the patriot act and how thousands of people had their privacy invaded with absolutely no evidence on the agents behalf to do so.
I agree that in a firefight no one cares what is inscribed on who's gun, but with Christianity's history of the crusades in that region and the public being told this is about safety and the reason we are in their land is to protect ourselves and not to impose a secular will upon them, well, that's murky now with this. I had a conversation with a pastor over this yesterday and he was horrified by it. First, that Jesus words would ever be acquainted with killing people and that our government would purchase weapons with any religious message on them, with the history of war over religion in that region and the purchase coming from taxpayers. (He said he would like to see if it had been a different religion, how people would behave then.) He and I both knew the answer and so do most others.
Personally, I want our people to have what they need to come home safe, but I am upset that this is one more wrinkle in a war that wasn't supposed to exist. Kinda like the news this week about the patriot act and how thousands of people had their privacy invaded with absolutely no evidence on the agents behalf to do so.
SoWal Insider
Thank you . I was unaware of their definitions.
Back to the discussion of this topic. Or maybe it was derailed for good. Too bad- it was interesting and I wasn't aware this was going on.
SoWal Expert
Andy,
I agree that in a firefight no one cares what is inscribed on who's gun, but with Christianity's history of the crusades in that region and the public being told this is about safety and the reason we are in their land is to protect ourselves and not to impose a secular will upon them, well, that's murky now with this. I had a conversation with a pastor over this yesterday and he was horrified by it. First, that Jesus words would ever be acquainted with killing people and that our government would purchase weapons with any religious message on them, with the history of war over religion in that region and the purchase coming from taxpayers. (He said he would like to see if it had been a different religion, how people would behave then.) He and I both knew the answer and so do most others.
Personally, I want our people to have what they need to come home safe, but I am upset that this is one more wrinkle in a war that wasn't supposed to exist. Kinda like the news this week about the patriot act and how thousands of people had their privacy invaded with absolutely no evidence on the agents behalf to do so.
And once again, I find interesting that our government that buys these inscribed guns assumes that the soldiers using them and protecting our country are all Christians- every one of them, and I doubt that is the case. It is inappropriate and insensitive to soldiers who have other religious views- do they have the option of carrying a non-inscribed gun? I bet there are Christian soldiers that do not think it is OK to have Bible verses inscribed on killing machines, because as a Christian, I am not OK with that.
SoWal Insider
Geez, this will teach me to go to bed early! ;-)
Aleonard, thank you for speaking up in my defense! Its nice to know that I am regarded well enough to merit your concern.
BH- I can tell your a woman of very strong opinions, but I can say you come across as insulting sometimes. I honestly can't tell if your doing it on purpose or not.
Well, I thought your gurlfriend Lynnie would come in and get your back, but she was sleeping on the job. I might think about trading her in if I was you
DTY, we haven't interacted much together, but I have paid attention to your post and your thoughtfulness of other posters. Religion is an intense personal belief and peoples thoughts on it are much like opinions, everyone has them. You know what is in your heart and I appreciative you as a thoughtful and kind contributor to this online community.
Edited
SoWal Expert
It is very obvious from reading this thread that no one appears to have been shot at in a combat situation. If they had, they would know that those shooting back could care less about what is inscribed on their weapon, only that it is the best possible and accomplishes the mission for which it was designed.
I am all for using these scopes if they are the best product (which seems to be the case), just want them to be smart enough to realize that knocking a couple unnecessary digits off the serial numbers will make the troops lives/missions a lot easier.
My major problem is not with the use or religious nature of the scopes (which is outright dumb IMO but minor in big picture land), but that this nonsense is SO counterproductive to our goals in these areas.
It was determined by many smart people (who know a lot more than I/we do about the region, the military, combat, occupation, and these wars) that stuff like this was a VERY bad idea w/ potentially HUGE repercussions - to the extent that they even went so far as to draft special rules for Iraq and Afghanistan to avoid it.
Beach Fanatic
The update for those that missed.
Trijicon's offer
Trijicon, for its part, offered on Thursday voluntarily to stop putting biblical references on all products manufactured for the US military.
The company said it will provide, free of charge, 100 modification kits to the Pentagon to enable the removal of the references that are already on products that are currently deployed.
In a statement, Stephen Bindon, Trijicon's president and CEO, called the decision "both prudent and appropriate" and pledged to "move as quickly as possible to provide the modification kits for deployment overseas".
Officials from Trijicon earlier said the US military had been a customer since 1995.
The inscriptions, which do not include actual text from the Bible, refer numerically to passages from the book.
The Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight rifle sights, used by New Zealand troops, carried references to Bible verses that appeared in raised lettering at the end of the sight stock number.
Markings included "JN8:12", a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life," according to the King James version of the Bible.
The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.
Tom Munson, Trijicon's sales director, said: "We don't publicise this. It's not something we make a big deal out of. But when asked, we say, 'Yes, it's there'."
See if the government had been doing its job, none of this would have happened.
I don't expect everyone to agree and I actually respect a different opinion.
Trijicon's offer
Trijicon, for its part, offered on Thursday voluntarily to stop putting biblical references on all products manufactured for the US military.
The company said it will provide, free of charge, 100 modification kits to the Pentagon to enable the removal of the references that are already on products that are currently deployed.
In a statement, Stephen Bindon, Trijicon's president and CEO, called the decision "both prudent and appropriate" and pledged to "move as quickly as possible to provide the modification kits for deployment overseas".
Officials from Trijicon earlier said the US military had been a customer since 1995.
The inscriptions, which do not include actual text from the Bible, refer numerically to passages from the book.
The Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight rifle sights, used by New Zealand troops, carried references to Bible verses that appeared in raised lettering at the end of the sight stock number.
Markings included "JN8:12", a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life," according to the King James version of the Bible.
The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.
Tom Munson, Trijicon's sales director, said: "We don't publicise this. It's not something we make a big deal out of. But when asked, we say, 'Yes, it's there'."
See if the government had been doing its job, none of this would have happened.
I don't expect everyone to agree and I actually respect a different opinion.
Edited
Banned
This is been going for years and only because of ABC news did it become an issue. The government did not to a very good job of researching their products. But I have no idea why this discussion is even still going on, do y'all only discuss and never research.
A strange comment since 10 of the posts in this thread are yours!
Beach Fanatic
This is been going for years and only because of ABC news did it become an issue. The government did not to a very good job of researching their products. But I have no idea why this discussion is even still going on, do y'all only discuss and never research.
A strange comment since 10 of the posts in this thread are yours!
The announcement about the company decision to comply to changing the sights came out today, I have posted one update and nothing more.
Banned
It is very obvious from reading this thread that no one appears to have been shot at in a combat situation. If they had, they would know that those shooting back could care less about what is inscribed on their weapon, only that it is the best possible and accomplishes the mission for which it was designed.
Would you use an AK-47 with a hammer and sickle inscribed on it? Assuming it was the best weapon for the job of course.
SoWal Expert
The only new "fact" you posted is that within the last couple of hours the company is going to do something to fix the problem....................and the "uproar" is responsible for that.
It is typical for something to be unresolved or unnoticed for months or years and then be resolved within 24-48 hours of it becoming national news and fodder for internet discussions like this one.
I fail to see how the length of time something has been going on has any bearing on whether it is wrong or whether I am allowed to get angry about it. Most of the bad things going on in the world are crimes and injustices that have been going on for years, decades, centuries, or millennium.
It is typical for something to be unresolved or unnoticed for months or years and then be resolved within 24-48 hours of it becoming national news and fodder for internet discussions like this one.
I fail to see how the length of time something has been going on has any bearing on whether it is wrong or whether I am allowed to get angry about it. Most of the bad things going on in the world are crimes and injustices that have been going on for years, decades, centuries, or millennium.
Beach Fanatic
A Free Press - Krimsky on Role of Media in Democracy - USIA:
"Thomas Jefferson felt so strongly about the principle of free expression he said something that non-democrats must regard as an absurdity: "If it were left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter."
From the beginning of our country, it has been the role of the press to investigate and inform citizens of what is going on...I am glad that ABC broke this story.
I find the fact that guns are inscribed with Bible verses appalling for any number of reasons; not the least of which is the very concept that Scooterbug has so ably expressed.
And, I find the discussions/debate/whatever useful. It is always good to stretch our minds by hearing/reading another's opinion IMO. None of us needs to agree with the other; but to respect the other opinions is appropriate.
"Thomas Jefferson felt so strongly about the principle of free expression he said something that non-democrats must regard as an absurdity: "If it were left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter."
From the beginning of our country, it has been the role of the press to investigate and inform citizens of what is going on...I am glad that ABC broke this story.
I find the fact that guns are inscribed with Bible verses appalling for any number of reasons; not the least of which is the very concept that Scooterbug has so ably expressed.
And, I find the discussions/debate/whatever useful. It is always good to stretch our minds by hearing/reading another's opinion IMO. None of us needs to agree with the other; but to respect the other opinions is appropriate.
Edited
SoWal Insider
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
I don't see a Constitutional issue with this. But it certainly seems inappropriate. I don't think God would appreciate the good book being referenced on a weapon either, but maybe that question is best left to someone more knowledgeable than me.
I don't see a Constitutional issue with this. But it certainly seems inappropriate. I don't think God would appreciate the good book being referenced on a weapon either, but maybe that question is best left to someone more knowledgeable than me.
SoWal Insider
You don't have to see the need to it, and it is your right to not purchase them as much as it their right to put it on there.
As to the cost of sights yes it would cost more to the vendor. They would have to make new molds for this variation. They make all their sights with the verse. They would have to change their entire format to make a deviation.
I think what some of you are missing is this. I respect your right to think that this is unnecesssary, but do you respect the right of this vendor to think it is right.
You can not have it only your way.
I disagree that they would have to change their format and you don't have to be an engineer to know that. The cast can easily be welded to remove the inscription. It's not rocket science and it would not change the operating capability of the weapon.
The vendor can do what the heck they want, but if some of our men, either religious or non- religious are complaining about it and if in is violation of our military laws than I am glad it was removed. Noone probably complained about it because we have not been using the weaponry on the same scale in a country that has holy wars for 15 whole years.
Most people don't have all day to sit and google a topic for the most recent updated news and research proves that, so I am surprised that you would berate those who complained.
Have a great day.
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