Rifles used by U.S. troops include Bible verse inscriptions - USATODAY.com Rifles used by U.S. troops include Bible verse inscriptions
WASHINGTON (AP) ? Combat rifle sights used by U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan carry references to Bible verses, stoking concerns about whether the inscriptions break a government rule that bars proselytizing by American troops.
Military officials said the citations don't violate the ban and they won't stop using the telescoping sights, which allow troops to pinpoint the enemy day or night.Markings on the Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight, which is standard issue to U.S. special operations forces, include "JN8:12," a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life,"' according to the King James version of the Bible.
The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.
Photos posted on a Defense Department website show Iraqi forces training with rifles equipped with the inscribed sights.
The Defense Department is a major customer of Trijicon's. In 2009 alone, the Marine Corps signed deals worth $66 million for the company's products. Trijicon's scopes and optical devices for guns range in cost from a few hundred dollars to $13,000, according to the company's website.
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Beach Fanatic
Jdarg in response to your question I looked up these words:
1. discuss- to talk or write about (a topic) in detail, taking into account
different ideas and opinions
2. argue- give reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea, action, or
theory, typically with the aim of persuading others to share one's
view in a heated or angry way
3. debate- a formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or
legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put
forward,with the intent being, to consider a possible course of
action in one's mind before reaching a decision
4. motive- reason for doing something, especially one that is hidden or not
obvious
I would like to offer the following definitions as well:
debate- a conversation with a moron about an issue. Yes, they are a moron because they disagree with me.
argue- a conversation with my wife. Yes, I am a moron because I disagree with her.
Banned
My point is if something bothers me, I research it. No one that was upset about it posted it had been solved.
And we have no way of knowing whether the company would have done the same thing if the government had asked them to before this media fed uproar.
I personally think they would have. I am glad for the soldiers in the field it was resolved for truly they are the most affected and the sights are the best made.
Let me make something very clear, because there seems to be some misconception. I don't have any problem with anyone being upset over this. It is your right, I just got the impression and maybe it was wrong that most were upset with the verses being there, NOT that the government did a lousy job of researching their own policy. They were the ones late to the game, it is have been going on for 15 years. They should have caught it from the beginning.
Just as any of you have a right to be uspet over, the manufacturer has a right to put them there. I was also surprised that no one that was upset was aware the problem has been solved. That was all.
Have a nice day, I have Haiti mission work to do.
Maybe you were the first to find it had been resolved. Not everyone gets the news at the same moment, thanks for the up-date.
Have a nice day, I have beer drinking work to do.
Beach Fanatic
Well, I thought your gurlfriend Lynnie would come in and get your back, but she was sleeping on the job. I might think about trading her in if I was you
DTY, we haven't interacted much together, but I have paid attention to your post and your thoughtfulness of other posters. Religion is an intense personal belief and peoples thoughts on it are much like opinions, everyone has them. You know what is in your heart and I appreciative you as a thoughtful and kind contributor to this online community.
Lol! You are aware that Lynnie is not my gurlfriend for real right?
Scooterbug predicted we were going to be married on the beach in her 2010 predictions thread just for fun...though if I ever meet her and she is as vivacious in real life as she is online she might be in for some trouble! ;-) Thank you for the very kind words! You made my night... 
Beach Fanatic
Oh now I have to get myself out of another mess- darn that passion! Aleonard was right that I appeared rude, I say appeared because I'll tell you why in a minute. Douglas the Intrepid is correct in saying that I come across as insulting, although not intentional. That's funny about the tea, Gidget, but grew up on New orleans mud beans so I'll stick with it. Yes, Douglas the Intrepid IS nice and reminds me of my brother so that is how I was speaking to him. It was done in love cause me and my brother were straight out with each other about what we thought. How stupid is that? Well, I admit it went over like a tidal wave. So let me go ahead and apologize once again for thinking you know me and know where I'm coming from. My intentions were good, but the delivery sucked. Foot sandwich anyone?
Its good to know where you are coming from BH and thank you for explaining all of that! I hope you have a beautiful night...
SoWal Expert
Great news about the resolution of the issue. I am confused- are we not allowed to talk about issues unless we have done all the research, or after there has been a resolution or end to the problem? This is a community message board-I doubt the Dept. Of Defense is looking to us for real info. 
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Beach Fanatic
I need to learn to read better...sorry I reposted on this!
*edited*
*edited*
SoWal Expert
I need to learn to read better...sorry I reposted on this!
*edited*
I need to learn to post from the IPhone-
SoWal Insider
Hey All Y'all! I heard I was being flattered over here. The irony......a thread I don't visit.
I looked at this thread when it first went up, but wasn't really interested. I agree with all of you, actually. Scooterbug, you're right: we are not fighting a jihad and should not give the jihadists a reason to believe we are.
I see two New Testament verses, a Gospel and an Epistle. Any reference from the Torah? Just to be fair. I can see the benefit of a biblical or religious reference for a young soldier. In my heart, I see nothing /wrong/ with this. In fact, my guess is many of our soldiers wear a St. Christopher or carry a New Testament/Torah/Holy Bible or have some religious vice with them regardless.
However, first and foremost, I firmly believe in separation of church and state. But, this isn't church......it's a corporation who has bid to do business with the US Military. So, our gov't should have been more cognizant and believed in separation of church and state. ;-)
What took ABC so long to bust this one?
Aleonard, you're right: I was asleep. An excruciating headache got me yesterday and it's back today. Douglas, thank you for setting them straight. I have a feeling they knew and were teasing us a bit. You're groovy!
I looked at this thread when it first went up, but wasn't really interested. I agree with all of you, actually. Scooterbug, you're right: we are not fighting a jihad and should not give the jihadists a reason to believe we are.
I see two New Testament verses, a Gospel and an Epistle. Any reference from the Torah? Just to be fair. I can see the benefit of a biblical or religious reference for a young soldier. In my heart, I see nothing /wrong/ with this. In fact, my guess is many of our soldiers wear a St. Christopher or carry a New Testament/Torah/Holy Bible or have some religious vice with them regardless.
However, first and foremost, I firmly believe in separation of church and state. But, this isn't church......it's a corporation who has bid to do business with the US Military. So, our gov't should have been more cognizant and believed in separation of church and state. ;-)
What took ABC so long to bust this one?
Aleonard, you're right: I was asleep. An excruciating headache got me yesterday and it's back today. Douglas, thank you for setting them straight. I have a feeling they knew and were teasing us a bit. You're groovy!
SoWal Insider
Of course anyone can discuss anything they wish to discuss, it just amazes me that people can have such passion about a subject and know so little about it.
I would never enter into any type of discussion without the facts and without keeping up with the most current information about the subject.
If one has time to come here and give their opinion, they have enough time to research the subject.
Or do some simply argue for the sake of arguing and have no real interest in the subject being discussed.
I find most people on this Board to be quite knowledgeable of topics they discuss and have passion about. The only person "arguing" with anyone on this thread is you and Beauty Hunter, and it hasn't just been this one thread. If you have enough time to research subjects and definitions of in real time as the events occur, more power to you. Some of us also have lives to live and come here to this Board to relax or seek opinions like many people do these days who read internet bloggers or watch TV commentators.
SoWal Insider
Bob? Are you around anywhere? You start these "thought provoking" threads and then you never post. What's up with that?
Carry on...
Carry on...
Banned
WWJB? (Who would Jesus Bayonet?)
SoWal Insider
Bob? Are you around anywhere? You start these "thought provoking" threads and then you never post. What's up with that?
Carry on...
We're all gonna need some scripture after this thread :shock:
Where's Geo? He was looking for this thread the other day.........
Very well then.
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Beach Fanatic
O.K. time to play duck, duck, goose. Just thought I would add to the irritation that this thread has engendered. I think it is great that there are differences of opinions. I personally don't care if you agree with me or not, that won't make me not like you if you don't agree with me. I am a passionate person with strong opinions and if not delivered in a diplomatic way will go off like an atomic bomb, socially that is. What I want to say here is you get to see who people really are by how they handle themselves and I still accept and love who you are even though we have differences of opinions at times. If we were all alike it would be BORING. You guys are cool and socially acceptable or not, I still love you 
I hope all your dreams come true. See you at the next thread- cyberfriends
Little note for thought: You can throw mud on a diamond, but this doesn't change the beauty of what it is.
Mango, Thank you for grouping me in with Minnie, I consider that one of the highest compliments I could receive
I hope all your dreams come true. See you at the next thread- cyberfriends
Little note for thought: You can throw mud on a diamond, but this doesn't change the beauty of what it is.
Mango, Thank you for grouping me in with Minnie, I consider that one of the highest compliments I could receive
Beach Fanatic
Would you use an AK-47 with a hammer and sickle inscribed on it? Assuming it was the best weapon for the job of course.Yep. But I preferred the two .50 cal. machine guns which were attached to my airplane. To the best of my knowledge, they had no biblical inscriptions on them or any other symbols either.
SoWal Insider
SoWal Expert
I'm not saying there should be absolutely zero religion in the military - no problem at all with my tax dollars paying for chaplains, services, religious items for the troops like Bibles, a religious burial, a tombstone w/ a religious symbol on it at Arlington, you name it.
The issue here is that 1) these inscriptions are counterproductive to the mission 2) not everyone is a Christian, or if they are, not necessarily one who approves of their holy book being on weaponry.
If #1 was not an issue (basically if they were using them anywhere but the Middle East or we were fighting a combat war instead of a guerrilla war/occupation) I would care quite a bit less as #2 is more opinion/personal. Then, like Andy has pointed out, it becomes a simple matter of the best tool for the job.
Lynnie - Since the beginning I have been SO glad they didn't have any Old Testament on there - it would be like every national holiday rolled into one for the terrorists if we had guns w/ "Jewish" inscriptions on them!
The issue here is that 1) these inscriptions are counterproductive to the mission 2) not everyone is a Christian, or if they are, not necessarily one who approves of their holy book being on weaponry.
If #1 was not an issue (basically if they were using them anywhere but the Middle East or we were fighting a combat war instead of a guerrilla war/occupation) I would care quite a bit less as #2 is more opinion/personal. Then, like Andy has pointed out, it becomes a simple matter of the best tool for the job.
Lynnie - Since the beginning I have been SO glad they didn't have any Old Testament on there - it would be like every national holiday rolled into one for the terrorists if we had guns w/ "Jewish" inscriptions on them!
SoWal Insider
I'm not saying there should be absolutely zero religion in the military - no problem at all with my tax dollars paying for chaplains, services, religious items for the troops like Bibles, a religious burial, a tombstone w/ a religious symbol on it at Arlington, you name it.
The issue here is that 1) these inscriptions are counterproductive to the mission 2) not everyone is a Christian, or if they are, not necessarily one who approves of their holy book being on weaponry.
If #1 was not an issue (basically if they were using them anywhere but the Middle East or we were fighting a combat war instead of a guerrilla war/occupation) I would care quite a bit less as #2 is more opinion/personal. Then, like Andy has pointed out, it becomes a simple matter of the best tool for the job.
Lynnie - Since the beginning I have been SO glad they didn't have any Old Testament on there - it would be like every national holiday rolled into one for the terrorists if we had guns w/ "Jewish" inscriptions on them!
Good point: Perhaps the Muslims would have considered an Old Testament inscription to be Jewish, but for a Christian, the Holy Bible is a complete Word, inclusive of Old Testament scripture. And, the Jewish Torah is only the Pentateuch, right? There are a lot more books in the Old Testament than the first five.
And, that's all I have for this topic because I think one's theology is very personal. ;-)
SoWal Expert
Oh, I know, but since when does the truth/logic have anything to do with incendiary religious propaganda - especially in the middle east? ;-)
SoWal InsiderAuthor
would jesus approve of head shots?
SoWal Expert
My Jesus would depending on the situation, not sure about yours.
Beach Fanatic
washingtonpost.com
"Mikey Weinstein, president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, contacted The Associated Press last week about the Scripture citations. He said he had received complaints from active-duty and retired members of the military. Weinstein said he couldn't identify them because they fear retaliation. "
I think it is important to note that it was a military group that took the concern to the news media. ABC "broke" the story, but it was a result of concern from members of the military that they had the information.
"Mikey Weinstein, president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, contacted The Associated Press last week about the Scripture citations. He said he had received complaints from active-duty and retired members of the military. Weinstein said he couldn't identify them because they fear retaliation. "
I think it is important to note that it was a military group that took the concern to the news media. ABC "broke" the story, but it was a result of concern from members of the military that they had the information.
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SoWal Expert
Good point: Perhaps the Muslims would have considered an Old Testament inscription to be Jewish, but for a Christian, the Holy Bible is a complete Word, inclusive of Old Testament scripture. And, the Jewish Torah is only the Pentateuch, right? There are a lot more books in the Old Testament than the first five.
And, that's all I have for this topic because I think one's theology is very personal. ;-)
I wish this was on a tshirt. I'm so over the flag waving, billboard version of Christianity.
Beach Fanatic
Contractor relents as Petraeus slams Biblical markings on rifle sights | Stars and Stripes
and directly to the point raised earlier by SB:
"There’s a reason that we put people through cultural awareness training,” Petraeus said, referring to pre-deployment training programs. “I can assure you that there is much greater sensitivity among our troops about this sort of thing than apparently there is from the contractor"
I do not disagree that the "government" should have found this before and done something about it; but, I will be willing to bet that another story could be written about the government bureaucrat who approved this contractor and the lobbyist who was involved.
and directly to the point raised earlier by SB:
"There’s a reason that we put people through cultural awareness training,” Petraeus said, referring to pre-deployment training programs. “I can assure you that there is much greater sensitivity among our troops about this sort of thing than apparently there is from the contractor"
I do not disagree that the "government" should have found this before and done something about it; but, I will be willing to bet that another story could be written about the government bureaucrat who approved this contractor and the lobbyist who was involved.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Contractor relents as Petraeus slams Biblical markings on rifle sights | Stars and Stripes
and directly to the point raised earlier by SB:
"There?s a reason that we put people through cultural awareness training,? Petraeus said, referring to pre-deployment training programs. ?I can assure you that there is much greater sensitivity among our troops about this sort of thing than apparently there is from the contractor"
I do not disagree that the "government" should have found this before and done something about it; but, I will be willing to bet that another story could be written about the government bureaucrat who approved this contractor and the lobbyist who was involved.
I believe you are right about that.
G
SoWal Expert
“WASHINGTON — Gen. David Petraeus delivered a stinging criticism of the contractor that imprinted tiny Bible verse numbers on rifle sights used by American and NATO armed forces currently at war in Muslim countries.
It is disturbing,” the U.S. Central Command leader said in Washington on Thursday. “This is a serious concern to me and to the other commanders in Iraq and Afghanistan because it indeed conveys a perception that is absolutely contrary to what we have sought to do.”
The U.S. has long battled against public perceptions that portray its mission in Arab regions as a religious-based crusade. Already this week, foreign media have blasted the weapons in Afghanistan as “Bible guns.”
Do you really think there will be another kerfuffle about the manufacturer's selection? From what I was reading, it seemed that these are the best products and that was why they were selected.
Hope that it sends a strong message that this is unacceptable and keeps others from doing the same thing though.
It is disturbing,” the U.S. Central Command leader said in Washington on Thursday. “This is a serious concern to me and to the other commanders in Iraq and Afghanistan because it indeed conveys a perception that is absolutely contrary to what we have sought to do.”
The U.S. has long battled against public perceptions that portray its mission in Arab regions as a religious-based crusade. Already this week, foreign media have blasted the weapons in Afghanistan as “Bible guns.”
Do you really think there will be another kerfuffle about the manufacturer's selection? From what I was reading, it seemed that these are the best products and that was why they were selected.
Hope that it sends a strong message that this is unacceptable and keeps others from doing the same thing though.
Edited
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