Bible verses on weapons

I wonder if any of the soldiers have refused to use the sight. Can they go down the street and buy another one of the same caliber? If it was a tool I used to keep me alive in battle, and it was the best product available, I'd probably not care what was inscribed on it. WSWJU - what sight would Jesus use?

Should US currency not be allowed to be spent by active duty military since In God We Trust?

I wonder if any of the soldiers have refused to use the sight. Can they go down the street and buy another one of the same caliber? If it was a tool I used to keep me alive in battle, and it was the best product available, I'd probably not care what was inscribed on it. WSWJU - what sight would Jesus use?

Should US currency not be allowed to be spent by active duty military since In God We Trust?

Excellent logic
You guys never cease to amaze me.

I wonder if any of the soldiers have refused to use the sight. Can they go down the street and buy another one of the same caliber? If it was a tool I used to keep me alive in battle, and it was the best product available, I'd probably not care what was inscribed on it. WSWJU - what sight would Jesus use?

Should US currency not be allowed to be spent by active duty military since In God We Trust?

I don't think In God We Trust should be on currency either, but it's financially lucrative to tolerate it.

A-you bring an interesting perspective to this discussion given your profession. I guess this case brings up the topic of journalism ethics.

I don't think there is much debate about the inappropriate placement of biblical reference on weapon components purchased by the military. As I understand it, the soldiers concerned about this were concerned regarding the ramifications of 'complaining', thus someone in 'the media' was contacted. We all know the power of the pen can be mighty, and I have to wonder if there was any attempt to go straight to Petreus (who grants interviews liberally) and let him know about the situation off the record instead of releasing the story for international consumption. While I am unaware of specific precedent, I have got to believe that there have been such episodes in the past.

Listening to reports on our military efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq it is clear that significant effort is placed on cultural sensitivity training and fighting radical Islamic propaganda regarding Western anti-Islamic intent. That is why I find it so troubling that (apparently) no effort was made by the media to rectify the matter quietly instead of broadcasting the story. Given our apparent strategy in allaying fears of Western anti-Islamic intent, running with this story almost seems analogous to broadcasting troop numbers, movements, etc to an enemy state in a more traditional war.

By who? The solders who leaked it, or the rest of the military that knew about it for the last 30 years???
It is their job to rectify issues in their command, not the press. With all that sensitivity training, ya think one of them might have thought that it was a bad idea? Maybe go to the manufacture and say we need to talk about this? But no...

I had no idea that it was ABC's job to fix this issue and not report on it. ABC actually did their job and I am pretty sure that during the course of that job, they tried to contact someone high up the food chain, right before they were ready to go to press with it. I do believe that journalist have to behave ethically, but if the military really was doing everything you say as far as sensitivity training and such, this would have never gone to the press. They would have cleaned this up a long time ago. Someone was asleep at the wheel, but it wasn't ABC for once. There were not judge and jury over information, they just reported it.

***I have to add that I first saw the story on ABC and believe it may be the first mainstream news channel to put it out. But, I ran across this info about where the information came from:
"Last week, the blog Accurate Shooter reported that high-powered rifle sights provided to the U.S. military by the company Trijicon have “discreetly placed references to Bible passages.”

So, a blogger got it first. ABC news might still suck, that is undetermined. Also, I swear I have read that the man who was the contractor's father started this and his son continued the tradition after his fathers death.

I don't think In God We Trust should be on currency either, but it's financially lucrative to tolerate it.

I actually like "In God We Trust" on currency; but, let's follow the logic of this entire thread, Bible verses on weapons:addendum- being removed.

If we are removing small scripture references from military equipment, the next logical thing to do is to remove "In God We Trust" from US currency.

John R asks the question, "Should currency not be used by active duty military until "In God We Trust" is removed?"

In practicing the logic of this thread to the end, every vestige of God, and what He represents will soon be gone from the government.

Then we would get the exact government that we asked for.

On a side note that pertains to our local security, the thugs that robbed Hibiscus and Seacrest Sundries do not practice christian principles.

What standards will our national security be based on once God is totally removed from our government?

big difference between In God We Trust on a coin traditionally used in this country, and Jesus' words in secret codes on war weapons used by our military. In God We Trust on a coin used by us all - words that we are familiar with - a widely accepted tradition as our country's motto, it has become part of our culture (some of the history indicates that In God We Trust was politically motivated in fairly recent history - these words were not always used on our money) ...in any case it isn't saying anything about a particular religious group's belief even if it does reference God - the point is that In God We Trust on a coin is normal for us (whether its politically correct or not - I don't know) - I do think the words are widely accepted as part of US culture.... on the other hand - having christian bible verses inscribed on military guns used by men and women of all faiths trying their best to bring justice and peace to innocent people in a faraway land by eradicating religious terrorism - is not normal. it was a mistake - leaders have taken responsibility. the manufacturer has fully coorperated and the mistake is being rectified.

Why would Jesus ever need to be on weapons of war? I strongly doubt he has a favorite team much less a weapon of choice. But Jesus does belong in the hearts of military men and women who invite him.

I actually like "In God We Trust" on currency; but, let's follow the logic of this entire thread, Bible verses on weapons:addendum- being removed.

If we are removing small scripture references from military equipment, the next logical thing to do is to remove "In God We Trust" from US currency.

John R asks the question, "Should currency not be used by active duty military until "In God We Trust" is removed?"

In practicing the logic of this thread to the end, every vestige of God, and what He represents will soon be gone from the government.

Then we would get the exact government that we asked for.

On a side note that pertains to our local security, the thugs that robbed Hibiscus and Seacrest Sundries do not practice christian principles.

What standards will our national security be based on once God is totally removed from our government?

Once God is totally removed from government our national security will be based on logic and reason which you seem to be making a strong pitch for, so you ought to understand. By the way I'd like to have one of these scopes. I have no use for one, but if they're discontinued, they might one day be collectors items.

Interesting how "In God We Trust" got on our money in the first place.

U.S. Treasury - Fact Sheet on the History of"In God We Trust"

One thing for sure. I have certainly moved to a location where there are LOTS of opinions! I'm glad for that.

G

I wonder if any of the soldiers have refused to use the sight. Can they go down the street and buy another one of the same caliber? If it was a tool I used to keep me alive in battle, and it was the best product available, I'd probably not care what was inscribed on it. WSWJU - what sight would Jesus use?

Should US currency not be allowed to be spent by active duty military since In God We Trust?

I fail to see the logic in this question.

big difference between In God We Trust on a coin traditionally used in this country, and Jesus' words in secret codes on war weapons used by our military. In God We Trust on a coin used by us all - words that we are familiar with - a widely accepted tradition as our country's motto, it has become part of our culture (some of the history indicates that In God We Trust was politically motivated in fairly recent history - these words were not always used on our money) ...in any case it isn't saying anything about a particular religious group's belief even if it does reference God - the point is that In God We Trust on a coin is normal for us (whether its politically correct or not - I don't know) - I do think the words are widely accepted as part of US culture.... on the other hand - having christian bible verses inscribed on military guns used by men and women of all faiths trying their best to bring justice and peace to innocent people in a faraway land by eradicating religious terrorism - is not normal. it was a mistake - leaders have taken responsibility. the manufacturer has fully coorperated and the mistake is being rectified.

Why would Jesus ever need to be on weapons of war? I strongly doubt he has a favorite team much less a weapon of choice. But Jesus does belong in the hearts of military men and women who invite him.

REALLY big difference in logic. Tootsie, thanks for pointing it out so well.

The difference is only as large or as small as perceived by the person reading it. Maybe the person reading our currency just found it lying next to the shredded remains of his family. While watching his daughter bleed out of her non existent face, he see the words In God We trust. It's a non starter for us, but maybe not for him. Possibly it sets him to rage and he makes it his mission to walk into a US bank/embassy/school, and blow up everything in a block radius. An extreme example, no? But it could happen.

Same goes for the sights in question. Has anyone here gone to the manufacturer's website? They've been supplying our military and law enforcement since 1981. That's a lot of sights that no one has had a problem with, until now? Why? Who knows? Some religious whackjob with nothing better to do, I believe. The biblical references in question indicate light coming from darkness. The sights are low-light optical devices, enhancing vision in darkness. Something everyone who has to rely on one wants it to have, I'm pretty sure. A little play on words from the manufacturer maybe? Or possibly, they have it on there to bestow a last blessing on the person who it will impact the most, helping them find their way to the light. It's all about perception. A mistake? Maybe not. This item isn't even on the news radar anymore. What a way to waste the military's time, having to grind down these things in the field, potentially putting more service personnel in danger because they're not being utilized for their intended purpose.

Poppy, I tried to make it as simple as possible for you. Everyone interprets things differently, thank G_d.
A fascinating thread.

Interesting how "In God We Trust" got on our money in the first place.

U.S. Treasury - Fact Sheet on the History of"In God We Trust"

One thing for sure. I have certainly moved to a location where there are LOTS of opinions! I'm glad for that.

G

I know. if not for all the many different opinions on this (and more important matters) we would never think beyond our own thought processes.

because of this discussion, I have a broader opinion on this matter. while I don't really follow John R's logic, I do appreciate it. things are hardly ever black and white. good or bad. still - I say Jesus' words were not meant for secret codes on a gun. they were meant to spoken aloud and spread to the world to inspire peace, love, kindness, strength and compassion. not hidden in a code on a killing weapon.

The difference is only as large or as small as perceived by the person reading it. Maybe the person reading our currency just found it lying next to the shredded remains of his family. While watching his daughter bleed out of her non existent face, he see the words In God We trust. It's a non starter for us, but maybe not for him. Possibly it sets him to rage and he makes it his mission to walk into a US bank/embassy/school, and blow up everything in a block radius. An extreme example, no? But it could happen.

Same goes for the sights in question. Has anyone here gone to the manufacturer's website? They've been supplying our military and law enforcement since 1981. That's a lot of sights that no one has had a problem with, until now? Why? Who knows? Some religious whackjob with nothing better to do, I believe. The biblical references in question indicate light coming from darkness. The sights are low-light optical devices, enhancing vision in darkness. Something everyone who has to rely on one wants it to have, I'm pretty sure. A little play on words from the manufacturer maybe? Or possibly, they have it on there to bestow a last blessing on the person who it will impact the most, helping them find their way to the light. It's all about perception. A mistake? Maybe not. This item isn't even on the news radar anymore. What a way to waste the military's time, having to grind down these things in the field, potentially putting more service personnel in danger because they're not being utilized for their intended purpose.

Poppy, I tried to make it as simple as possible for you. Everyone interprets things differently, thank G_d.
A fascinating thread.

I don't think anybody should stop using the existing scopes or try to modify them. Same thing with our currency. None of these things should be show stoppers. I don't think it's proper however to continue to manufacture scopes with these labels and continue to distribute them, especially since a solution should be quite simple and shouldn't be too controversial. Very few people are going to object to scopes without the labels. As for the currency, however I might feel about it, it's not worth my time and effort.

"In God We Trust" on our money does not fuel the rumor/propanganda that we are fighting a holy war in the land of the original religious clusterpuck, so it is a minor issue as far as I am concerned.

Despite what many will tell you, our founding fathers did NOT want this country to be a "Christian nation" or a theocracy and went to great lengths to keep it from happening - which is why it took almost a century before God was put on our national currency.

"In God We Trust" on our money does not fuel the rumor/propanganda that we are fighting a holy war in the land of the original religious clusterpuck, so it is a minor issue as far as I am concerned.

Despite what many will tell you, our founding fathers did NOT want this country to be a "Christian nation" or a theocracy and went to great lengths to keep it from happening - which is why it took almost a century before God was put on our national currency.

another critical fact apparently left out of our children's history education. hmmmmmm...

Yep, fueled by religious fervor surrounding a war - sound familiar? :roll:

Leonard Pitts Jr.: Taking aim at biblical verses on weapons | tallahassee.com | Tallahassee Democrat

I think Leonard Pitts sums up the incident well..

"The point is not that he or we can do what Martin Luther King did or be who Mother Teresa was — we all suffer in that comparison. No, the point is that truest faith is not seen in a secret code on a gun sight, a trinket from a store or words on a rock. Rather, faith is seen in the substance of a life lived in service to others, lived as if God were "not" in fact one's personal echo chamber in the sky."

He certainly summed it up quite effectively IMO!

"In the first place, the gun sights actually seem a clear violation of a regulation specifically prohibiting service personnel from proselytizing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

In the second place, the revelation is a fresh embarrassment for the United States, which has labored for nine years to convince the Muslim world that it is not leading a Christian crusade against Islam.


In the third place, the coded scriptural references provided a recruiting tool to warlords and terrorists who could truthfully tell followers they were being shot at by Jesus guns.


In the fourth place, Munson's airy dismissal of his critics as "not Christian" (e.g., we can ignore them) speaks volumes about the smug, insular fundamentalism at work here.


In the fifth place, there is a rather jarring cognitive disconnect involved in seeing weapons of war used to lionize the prince of peace.


And finally, in the sixth place: Is this not one of the cheesiest expressions of religious faith you've ever seen? Not that that would make it unique."

He certainly summed it up quite effectively IMO!

"In the first place, the gun sights actually seem a clear violation of a regulation specifically prohibiting service personnel from proselytizing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

In the second place, the revelation is a fresh embarrassment for the United States, which has labored for nine years to convince the Muslim world that it is not leading a Christian crusade against Islam.


In the third place, the coded scriptural references provided a recruiting tool to warlords and terrorists who could truthfully tell followers they were being shot at by Jesus guns.


In the fourth place, Munson's airy dismissal of his critics as "not Christian" (e.g., we can ignore them) speaks volumes about the smug, insular fundamentalism at work here.


In the fifth place, there is a rather jarring cognitive disconnect involved in seeing weapons of war used to lionize the prince of peace.


And finally, in the sixth place: Is this not one of the cheesiest expressions of religious faith you've ever seen? Not that that would make it unique."

perfectly said.

jesus on a gun. you cannot make this kind of stuff up.

From NPR, All Things Considered:

January 25, 2010
Benjamin Busch was an infantry officer in the United States Marine Corps. He served two tours of duty in Iraq.

As a Marine invading Iraq in 2003, I thought we actively separated church and state from our motives.

I know that Scripture embedded in the obscure numbers on rifle scopes may seem like a small detail, and that manufacturer Trijicon likely intended no particular malice by placing biblical references on its equipment. Like, 2COR4:6 represents 2 Corinthians 4:6, "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." There seems to have been neither marketing nor secrecy associated with the presence of these inscriptions.

But these are not innocent times, and the codes are still messages printed and sent out. These notes have now been read and exposed, and we have the baggage of explaining ourselves to people convinced that many of our actions are motivated by religion instead of self-defense, justice or altruism.

As a Marine, I aimed at Iraq through rifle scopes, my vision amplified. When viewing other cultures, even enemies, I think we should be wary of seeing them through a lens marked by religion.

I did not go onward as a Christian soldier. I went forth as an American, a Marine.
The United States is fighting Islamic extremists. But we are not Christian extremists. When I returned for my second tour in 2005, we were in the embattled city of Ramadi, and we fought jihadists, tribal factions and criminals alongside almost entirely Muslim Iraqi soldiers. It was impossible to segregate the ambitions of singular religions then.

Although the rifle equipment was stamped as a private act by a private company, it was sold to governments, and therefore unavoidably and knowingly coupled with politics. Biblical quotes were thoughtfully chosen ? thoughtful enough not to be allowed as innocent of larger context.

By branding weapons with Christian messages, there is a deep and ugly blending of religion, politics and bloodshed, and it has unwittingly painted our government and military with the embarrassing language of "crusade."

America is largely composed of people who consider themselves Christian, separated by various interpretations of the same book. But I did not go onward as a Christian soldier. I went forth as an American, a Marine. I was sent by my country to fight a threat, and thereafter with the best intentions of democracy, not theocracy.

Our efforts in the Middle East were complicated enough, and small symbols are examined carefully by our opponents. Based on my understanding of the teachings of Christ, he would be very disappointed to see his Gospel assigned to war of any kind in the first place.

I leave you with a verse that has not been stamped on our weapons: "But I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you" ? Matthew 5:44.

Audio for this story from All Things Considered will be available at approx. 7:00 p.m. ET

Even though I didn't have an account, I've been a lurker here for all eternity. But I've decided to jump in once in a while to set you people straight.

This whole putting bible verses on guns thing. It didn't bother me. Bigger things to worry about. But it's for the best that it's going to stop.

Dad's name on the dollar- could care less.

Alright. That's enough for now. I'm going to catch sunset.

JC

I don't think In God We Trust should be on currency either, but it's financially lucrative to tolerate it.

Considering that these are the best scopes available, so I've been told, I think that it is in the best interest of our soldiers to "tolerate" them.

Considering that these are the best scopes available, so I've been told, I think that it is in the best interest of our soldiers to "tolerate" them.

I don't think it's too much to ask the manufacturers to cut the sh-- from hereon.

Considering that these are the best scopes available, so I've been told, I think that it is in the best interest of our soldiers to "tolerate" them.

yes certainly, and the soldiers have done just that for quite some time I believe.

Considering that these are the best scopes available, so I've been told, I think that it is in the best interest of our soldiers to "tolerate" them.

Actually it REALLY isn't. That's why it's so much bigger of an issue than "In God We Trust" on our money and why Petraeus put an immediate stop to it.