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Jdarg

SoWal Expert
Feb 15, 2005
18,039
1,984
The point of my post was to maybe smooth the way for topics such as these to become a bit more user friendly. I am sure there are board members out there that have more than a few thoughts on these political subjects, but the current threads are started and dominated by a sledgehammer.

Thanks BMV for pointing out that I can't take it in the political forums. I will go back to the lounge, where I can just be friends with Chickpea, and not read her insightful posts in the political threads anymore. I'll give her my moral support in person.:roll: But you are correct in saying she clearly does not need anyone's help.

Back to the lounge- yippeeeeeeeeeee! :lol:
 

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
BMV,
Thanks for pointing that out.

JDarg,
If you'll look at where this started, you'll see that I asked her thoughts, then offered two articles that show the roots of where the violence started. They were not from some random right wing website, they were from The Wall Street Journal and National Review. She compared Sharon to Arafat, then offered nothing to substantiate it. Instead, she called me uneducated, inflaming, and said that she wouldn't even get into why Sharon was complicit. Chickpea offers a decent point of view, but she's backed it up with nothing more than feelings. Rancid and I have completely opposite views, but I don't believe we've gotten into name calling in the past.
 

Rita

margarita brocolia
Dec 1, 2004
5,207
1,634
Dune Allen Beach
"If you have nothing to say, it's best to stick to the lounge, where your intellectual prowess is not out of its league." - 6thgentroll

BMBV,

If the above statement isn't pompous, I don't know what is! Just because I don't have the experiences and breadth of knowledge to debate a subject does not mean that I am not interested in the varying views on such. Quite honestly, I think 6thgen knows he is pompous and it is OK with him. :dunno:

Inflaming and trolling (imo) is not the way to go about discussing topics and that is where I get the most annoyed because that appears to be 6thgen's method of choice! He thinks he "wins" :roll: debates (arguments for him) by running people off.

I totally agree with Jdarg's statement: "We have all posted views that started discussions and arguments, but most of us have built relationships to this board in positive ways, as opposed to coming out with both bats swinging and never putting them down. Opinions are wonderful and we have many here, but there needs to be a balance. Many posters that go "head to head" on these message board topics are complete personality opposites, debate their views, and still remain cordial and friendly."
 

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
"If you have nothing to say, it's best to stick to the lounge, where your intellectual prowess is not out of its league." - 6thgentroll

BMBV,

If the above statement isn't pompous, I don't know what is! Just because I don't have the experiences and breadth of knowledge to debate a subject does not mean that I am not interested in the varying views on such. Quite honestly, I think 6thgen knows he is pompous and it is OK with him. :dunno:

Inflaming and trolling (imo) is not the way to go about discussing topics and that is where I get the most annoyed because that appears to be 6thgen's method of choice! He thinks he "wins" :roll: debates (arguments for him) by running people off.

I totally agree with Jdarg's statement: "We have all posted views that started discussions and arguments, but most of us have built relationships to this board in positive ways, as opposed to coming out with both bats swinging and never putting them down. Opinions are wonderful and we have many here, but there needs to be a balance. Many posters that go "head to head" on these message board topics are complete personality opposites, debate their views, and still remain cordial and friendly."

Hey, Stephen A. Douglas, that quote was in response to this "I have pretty much stopped reading any of 6thgentroll's 'cut and paste' articles, except when specifics are being discussed.

Will he be left to troll and flame at will, without being set straight by those of you who can debate the incorrectness of his 'logic'?! Not good!
Or can we have a total boycott and not give him a platform for trolling? It is disgusting imo."

You came on and offered nothing of substance, preferring insults and name calling. You use some apparently insulting internet nerd term that I wasn't familiar with it until Mango thought I was some hired gun out of DC. Again, I'm happy to read and respond to any argument you can offer, but you are intellectually out of your league.
 
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scooterbug44

SoWal Expert
May 8, 2007
16,706
3,339
Sowal
And another educational & thought provoking thread dissolves into "I didn't start the name calling" and "its not MY fault" after logical debate has been abandoned and knowledgable voices have left in frustration.........

It's a day that ends in "y" in Sowal!
 

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
And another educational & thought provoking thread dissolves into "I didn't start the name calling" and "its not MY fault" after logical debate has been abandoned and knowledgable voices have left in frustration.........

It's a day that ends in "y" in Sowal!

I know it's hard to wrap your mind around this, but I didn't bring it up, I simply addressed the point that I was being mean. You didn't seem to mind when everyone jumped on my case. I don't need you to defend me, but to belittle me because I corrected someone's personal accusation is juvenile.
 

scooterbug44

SoWal Expert
May 8, 2007
16,706
3,339
Sowal
I know it's hard to wrap your mind around this, but I didn't bring it up, I simply addressed the point that I was being mean. You didn't seem to mind when everyone jumped on my case. I don't need you to defend me, but to belittle me because I corrected someone's personal accusation is juvenile.
See above! Same old, same old............
 

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
Here is another excellent article on why. The source is National Review, here is a brief on the author, who Chickpea will no doubt call ignorant and uneducated.

Hanson received his B.A. from the University of California, Santa Cruz (1975) and his Ph.D. in classics from Stanford University (1980).

Hanson is currently a Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution and Fellow in California Studies at the Claremont Institute. Until recently, he was professor emeritus at California State University, Fresno, where he began teaching in 1984, having created the classics program at that institution.

In 1991 Hanson was awarded an American Philological Association's Excellence in Teaching Award, which is awarded to undergraduate teachers of Greek and Latin. He has been a visiting professor of classics at Stanford University (1991?92), National Endowment for the Humanities fellow at the Center for Advanced Studies in the Behavioral Sciences, Stanford, California (1992?93), as well as holding the visiting Shifrin Chair of Military History at the U.S. Naval Academy, Annapolis, Maryland (2002?03). He was a visiting professor at Hillsdale College in 2004 and 2006.

Hanson writes two weekly columns, one for National Review and one syndicated by Tribune Media Services, and has been published in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, American Heritage, City Journal, The American Spectator, Policy Review, the Claremont Review of Books, The New Criterion, and The Weekly Standard, among others.


Mideast Madness
Why the region remains unhinged.

By Victor Davis Hanson

?The Palestinian people will never forgive the Hamas gangs for looting the home of the Palestinian people?s great leader, Yasser Arafat.? So Palestinian Authority spokesman Abdel Rahman recently exclaimed. ?This crime will remain a stain of disgrace on the forehead of Hamas and its despicable gangs.?

Looting? Crime? Despicable gangs?

Excuse me. For years, Palestinian Authority-sanctioned gangs shot and tortured dissidents, glorified suicide bombing against Israel, and in general thwarted any hopes of various ?peace processes.?

Of course, this kind of behavior isn?t limited to the Palestinian territories but is spread across the Middle East. The soon-to-be-nuclear theocracy in Iran is grotesque. Iraqis continue to discover innovative ways to extinguish each other. Syria assassinates democratic reformers in Lebanon. ABC News now reports that new teams of al Qaeda and Taliban suicide bombers have been ordered to the United States and Europe from Afghanistan.

Here?s why much of the region is so unhinged ? and it?s not because of our policy in Palestine or our efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq.

First, thanks to Western inventions and Chinese manufactured goods, Middle Easterners can now access the non-Muslim world cheaply and vicariously. To millions of Muslims, the planet appears ? on the Internet, DVDs, and satellite television ? to be growing rich as most of their world stays poor.

Second, the Middle East either will not or cannot make the changes necessary to catch up with what they see in the rest of the world. Tribalism ? loyalty only to kin rather than to society at large ? impedes merit and thus progress. So does gender apartheid. Who knows how many would-be Margaret Thatchers or Sandra Day O?Connors remain veiled in the kitchen?

Religious fundamentalism translates into rote prayers in madrassas, while those outside the Middle East master science and engineering. Without a transparent capitalist system ? antithetical to both sharia and state-run economies ? initiative is never rewarded. Corruption is.

Meanwhile, mere discussion in much of the region of what is wrong can mean execution by a militia, government thug, or religious vigilante.

So, Middle Easterners are left with the old frustration of wanting the good life of Western society but lacking either the ability or willingness to change the status quo to get it.

Instead, we get monotonous scapegoating. Blaming America or Israel ? ?Those sneaky Jews did it!? ? has become a regional pastime.

And, after the multifarious failures of Yasser Arafat, the Assads in Syria, Muammar Gaddafi, Gamal Abdel Nasser, Saddam Hussein, and other corrupt autocrats, many have, predictably, retreated to fundamentalist extremism. Almost daily, some fundamentalist claims that the killing of Westerners is justified ? because of a cartoon, a Papal paragraph, or, most recently, British knighthood awarded to novelist Salman Rushdie. The terrorism of Osama bin Laden, Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Taliban is as much about nihilist rage as it is about blackmailing Western governments to grant concessions.

Meanwhile, millions of others simply flee the mess, immigrating to either Europe or the United States.

These reactions to failure often lead to circumstances that can defy logic.

The poor terrorists of Arafat?s old party, Fatah, seem to shriek that they have been out-terrorized by Hamas and desperately con more Western aid to make up for what has been squandered or stolen.

Muslims flock to Europe to enjoy a level of freedom and opportunity long denied at home. But no sooner have many arrived than they castigate their adopted continent as decadent. The ungracious prefer intolerant sharia ? denying to their own the very freedom of choice that was given to them by others.

Our response in America to this perennial Middle East temper tantrum?

In the last 20 years, we?ve sent billions in aid to the Arab world. We?ve saved Muslims from Bosnia to Kuwait. We?ve removed dangerous thugs in Afghanistan and Iraq, fostering democracies in their place. We?ve opened our borders to immigrants from the Middle East. We?ve paid billions of dollars in inflated oil prices. All the while, many in the West have wrongly blamed themselves for the conditions in the Middle East.

It?s past time for Middle Easterners to fix their own self-inflicted mess. In the meantime, the U.S. and its allies should help as we can ? but first protect ourselves from them as we must.

(C) 2007 TRIBUNE MEDIA SERVICES, INC.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZGQ2NzEyOGMzMjU1NTEyNTcxYjg1Mzc5ZDBkMjU1Y2Y=
 

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
And another good one I read last week, from Andrew McCarthy (not the actor). Just so no one calls him uneducated or bought and paid for, here is his bio:

Andrew C. McCarthy is a former federal prosecutor and a Contributor at National Review Online. From 1993 through 1996, while an Assistant United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, he led the prosecution against the jihad organization of Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, in which a dozen Islamic militants were convicted of conducting a war of urban terrorism against the United States that included the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and a plot to bomb New York City landmarks. Mr. McCarthy also made major contributions to the prosecutions of the bombers of the United States embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, and the Millennium plot attack Los Angeles International Airport.

Following the September 11 attacks, Mr. McCarthy supervised the U.S. Attorney's Anti-Terrorism Command Post in New York City, coordinating investigative and preventive efforts with numerous federal and state law enforcement and intelligence agencies. From 1999 through 2003, he was the Chief Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Southern District's satellite office, responsible for federal law enforcement in six counties north of New York City.

Mr. McCarthy is the recipient of numerous awards, including the Justice Department's highest honors: the Attorney General's Exceptional Service Award (1996) and Distinguished Service Award (1988). He has served as a Special Assistant to the Deputy Secretary of Defense, and as an Associate Independent Counsel in the investigation of a former cabinet official. He has also been an Adjunct Professor of Law both at the Fordham University School of Law and at New York Law School.

He writes extensively on a variety of legal, social and political issues for National Review and Commentary, among other publications, as well as providing commentary for various television and radio broadcasts.

Here is the article:
http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=MDg2NTNkOTM0ZjI5ZTEzNzBjNzc4ODNjZjRhMmRlZjQ=


Our Terrorists Are Better Than Your Terrorists
Supporting Fatah, the Bush administration makes a deal with the devil.

By Andrew C. McCarthy


President Bush?s stirring post-9/11 message that regimes the world over have to choose between aligning with civilization or with terrorists should officially be interred in war-torn ?Palestine.? Seriousness about the doctrine is the only realistic way to defeat our enemies, and now we make a mockery of it. A mockery built on the trifecta-fiction that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas is an avatar of peace, that his Fatah faction has aligned with civilization, and that the Palestinian people ? the ones who freely chose to install Hamas as their parliamentary majority and who have trademarked ?Intifada? as an instrument of statecraft ? are somehow worth prostituting ourselves over.

In the Palestinian civil war, the Bush administration has unabashedly cast its lot with Fatah. The United States, in the midst of its own global war against Islamic radicalism, is promising additional millions in foreign aid for a cabal which maintains its own jihadist wing, and which is so thoroughly corrupt ? having pocketed much of the foreign aid billions that poured in over the last two decades ? that Palestinians opted for the more transparent Hamas terrorists when given the option.

Fatah is the creation of the late terror master, Yasser Arafat. It is currently led by Abbas, formerly Arafat?s close aid. When last we left Abbas, the administration?s favorite ?moderate,? he was laying a wreath at The Great Man?s grave ? the Palestinians, by the way, have turned the site into an Arafat shrine, telling us everything we need to know about them.

Abbas proceeded to urge a throng of 50,000 Palestinians to re-aim their guns at the ?occupation? (that would be Israel) instead of turning them on each other: ?[W]ith the will and determination of its sons, Fatah has and will continue,? he brayed. ?We will not give up our principles and we have said that rifles should be directed against the occupation.... We have a legitimate right to direct our guns against Israeli occupation....?

That was less than six months ago ? despite administration assertions on Monday that Abbas is ?a partner who is committed to peace.? And none of it was a surprise. When Abbas was seeking election in 2005, he declared to a cheering mob in Gaza that Palestinian terrorists being sought by Israel were ?heroes fighting for freedom.?

FATAH?S CONSTITUTION
And just what are these Fatah principles that the moderate was referring to at the founder?s tomb? Abbas?s American boosters don?t talk about them much, but Fatah itself is not so bashful. They are spelled out, for all to see, in the Constitution of Fatah (the name, by the way, means ?Conquest? ? and would anyone want to take a wild guess against whom?).

Here is what we?re getting for millions in U.S. taxpayer dollars:

... We all must sacrifice ourselves, our effort and time; these are the weapons of honest patriots. Don't, therefore, dear brother bring your march to a halt! Proceed in your march, armed with the patriots? resolution, the true believers? determination, and the fighters? patience... Let?s not forget for a while that our enemy is strong, and that the fight is fierceful [sic] and long... Consequently, determination, patience, confidentiality, commitment, and abiding by the revolution?s goals and principles keep our march unremittingly steady and makes [sic] our road to victory much shorter. Proceed, then my brother, forward... to the revolution. Long live Palestine, a free Arab state.

?FATEH? is a national, revolutionary movement and its membership is top confidential. ? The Palestinian struggle is part and parcel of the world-wide struggle against Zionism, colonialism and international imperialism. ? The Zionist Movement is racial, colonial and aggressive in ideology, goals, organisation and method. ? The Israeli existence in Palestine is a Zionist invasion with a colonial expansive base, and it is a natural ally to colonialism and international imperialism. ? Liberating Palestine and protecting its holy places is an Arab, religious and human obligation. ? Palestinian National Liberation Movement, ?FATEH?, is an independent national revolutionary movement representing the revolutionary vanguard of the Palestinian people. ? The crowds which participate in the revolution and liberation are the proprietors of the Palestinian land.

[Our ?Goals? include:] Complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence. ? Establishing an independent democratic state with complete sovereignty on all Palestinian lands, and Jerusalem is its capital city[.] ?



(Bold in original, emphasis in bold-italics added.)

Sure, Fatah, like Arafat, makes the occasional feint at peace-making, or, to be more precise, at the ?Peace Process,? invoking the biggest snow-job of all time ? one that enriched Fatah leaders with piles of cash while ?the Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence? received the bulging body-count of a second Intifada?.

But we oughtn?t be fooled: Fatah is still avowedly dedicated to the destruction of its neighbor (or, by Fatah?s lights, its trespasser) by any means necessary, including terrorizing, inducing outside political pressure on, and gradually out-breeding the Israelis. For the purpose, Fatah-controlled school systems and media continue without surcease to inculcate a virulently anti-Semitic martyrdom culture in the young. (See, e.g., this report from Palestinian Media Watch on the stunning curriculum through which Fatah, in the rhetoric of radical Islam, delegitimizes Israel and Jews.)

And, of course, Fatah maintains its own terrorist wing, the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, in addition to maintaining close ties to the Palestinian Islamic Jihad terror organization ? both of which are Iran-friendly, Hezbollah-friendly, and formally designated as foreign terrorist organizations by the United States.

SECULAR MODERATES?
These ties put the lie to the myth that Fatah is a moderate political movement that is secular in nature. Yes, Fatah is not a self-identified Muslim fundamentalist movement as Hamas is. But it demonstrates vibrant streaks of Islamic radicalism, as illustrated, for example, by its Brigades named for the al-Aqsa mosque in coveted Jerusalem, and the frequent admonitions on Fatah websites that prying that city from Zionist clutches is a religious obligation.

The terror ties also reveal the illogic of the Bush administration rationale (echoed in a recent National Review Online editorial, here) that Fatah, whatever its flaws, merits our support because its rival, Hamas, is in the pocket of Iran. There are divisions within Fatah, and it may be freely conceded that some of them, historically, have been anti-Iranian. But, on balance, Fatah?s ties to Iran are longstanding, and operational. It is no wonder that the al-Aqsa Brigades, beneficiaries of Iranian largesse, speak glowingly of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and his call to wipe Israel off the map.

Fatah may not love Iran, but it will work with Iran. After all, it has a lot more in common with the mullahs than it does with us ? beginning, of course, with their mutual goal of eliminating our ally, Israel. The wager that, if Fatah ultimately beats back Hamas, Iran will have suffered a serious set-back is wishful thinking, not strategy. What Iran cares most about is Israel, not Hamas. To terrorize Israel it will work with whoever is left standing.

Finally, even if, with several grains of salt, we were to accept the stop-Iran line of argument as well as the party line that Abbas himself has evolved into a trustworthy peace partner, there is still the 800-pound gorilla in the equation: the Palestinian people.

Such is the delusional U.S. looking-glass on Palestinian society that Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, the administration?s staunchest Abbas booster, told columnist Cal Thomas last October, ?[Y]ou can look at any opinion poll in the Palestinian territories and 70 percent of the people will say they?re perfectly ready to live side by side with Israel because they just want to live in peace.?

Come again? As it happens, recent polling actually turns out to be more reflective of common sense, which says that when you systematically rear a people on hatred and a cult of death, as Fatah has been so instrumental in doing, they grow up to be hateful and instinctively resort to savagery to settle their disputes.

Thus we find that up to 93 percent of young Palestinian adults (aged 18 to 25) deny Israel?s right to exist ? as compared with ?only? 75 percent when the total population is factored in. Thus we find, moreover, that when not brutalizing Israelis, Palestinians now brutalize each other. The cold truth is exactly the opposite of the idyllic picture painted by the administration ? and given the bile that Abbas?s Fatah spoon-feeds Palestinian children, how on earth could it be otherwise?

ENABLING TERROR
Why is the administration supporting Fatah without demanding that it shred its Constitution and unambiguously recognize Israel?s right to exist, as Israel, in perpetuity? Why isn?t President Bush demanding that Abbas not only order the disarming of Hamas in the West Bank (which Abbas did only because Hamas is fighting Fatah, not because Hamas is a terrorist organization), but that he also disarm the al-Aqsa Brigades and Palestinian Islamic Jihad? Because Abbas would be finished the minute he tried any such things. They are not what Palestinians want.

The Palestinians are a backward people, indoctrinated toward brutality. They don?t rate a sovereign state or anyone?s help until they civilize themselves. Sovereignty is a privilege that implies acceptance of civilized norms ? that is why we speak of states like Iran and North Korea as ?rogues.? Regardless of whether there really are scattered Palestinian moderates, it is a dangerous fantasy to assume the Palestinian people, as a whole, are ready to be anyone?s peace partner.

We are enabling their hatred when we provide support without insisting that the Palestinian people ? not just Abbas and Fatah, but the people ? convincingly foreswear revolution, terrorism, violence, ethnic-cleansing, and the goal of eliminating Israel. We are a generation or more, at least, from any hope of such developments. In the meantime, as long as we subsidize the hatred, we shall be buying more of it, while giving the Palestinians no incentive to reform.
 

30gAy

Beach Fanatic
Jul 4, 2006
417
0
The greater SoWal metro area
The Palestinians are a backward people, indoctrinated toward brutality. They don?t rate a sovereign state or anyone?s help until they civilize themselves. Sovereignty is a privilege that implies acceptance of civilized norms.

Oh my, what scathing logic.

The Palestinians, an occupied people, aren?t acting civilized ?they are acting like, uhmm?.. caged animals! Or could it be they are acting like, well ?.militarily occupied people?

How brilliant. There is no need to give them a country until they get one.

6thGen logic, at it?s most asinine.

I see you?re back to posting inflammatory articles again as the way to get you message across.

Message received ?although, I doubt it was the one you intended.
 
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