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Scott scraps Orlando to Tampa rail project

30ashopper avatar
30ashopperSoWal Insider
2,625 views
First ? capital cost overruns from the project could put Florida taxpayers on the hook for an additional $3 billion.

o Second ? ridership and revenue projections are historically overly-optimistic and would likely result in ongoing subsidies that state taxpayers would have to incur. (from $300 million ? $575 million over 10 years) ? Note: The state subsidizes Tri-Rail $34.6 million a year while passenger revenues covers only $10.4 million of the $64 million annual operating budget.


o Finally ? if the project becomes too costly for taxpayers and is shut down, the state would have to return the $2.4 billion in federal funds to D.C.
  • The truth is that this project would be far too costly to taxpayers and I believe the risk far outweighs the benefits.
  • Historical data shows capital cost overruns are pervasive in 9 out of 10 high speed rail projects and that 2/3 of those projects inflated ridership projections by an average of 65 percent of actual patronage.
  • It is projected that 3.07 million people will use the train annually. Keep in mind that Amtrak?s Acela train in Washington, D.C., Boston, Philadelphia, New York and Baltimore only had 3.2 million riders in 2010. And that market?s population is 8 times the size of the Tampa/Orlando market.
  • President Obama?s high-speed rail program is not the answer to Florida?s economic recovery.
  • We must make investments in areas where we will get a return for the shareholders ? Florida?s taxpayers.
  • Rather than investing in a high-risk rail project, we should be focusing on improving our ports, rail and highway infrastructure to be in a position to attract the increased shipping that will result when the Panama Canal is expanded when the free trade agreements with Colombia and Panama are ratified and with the expansion of the economies of Central and South America.
  • By capturing a larger share of containerized imports entering our seaports, expanding export markets for Florida businesses and emerging as a global hub for trade and investment we can create up to an additional 143,000 jobs according to a recent chamber of commerce study.
  • It is absolutely critical that we make smart investments with taxpayer dollars, whether state or federal, and I believe our state will be better served by spending these funds on projects that will benefit Florida and not turn into a spending boondoggle.
  • The answer is to reduce government spending, cut government?s leash on our state?s job creators and then hold that government accountable for the investments it makes.

Florida Governor Rick Scott - Florida Governor Rick Scott Rejects Federal High Speed Rail

And of course, special interests, local politicians, and the feds cry foul!

Rick Scott rejects high-speed rail: Gov. Rick Scott says he's rejecting federal high-speed rail money - OrlandoSentinel.com

Replies

65
scooterbug44 avatar
scooterbug44SoWal Expert
#2
WTF on the ports idea. :idontno:

Tampa is already the #16 port in the nation by volume, 10 of the 15 ports ahead of it on the list are located on the Gulf, and 2 more on the Gulf round out the top 25.

Ports grow because of location, population, lack of competition, and easy access to markets.

I'll buy the argument that he is concerned about costs for high speed rail, but IMO continuing to focus on highways and autos for transportation in a state with an aging population is just dumb and this port thing is left field.
BeachSiO2 avatar
BeachSiO2Beach Fanatic
#3
SB, he's likely talking about port deepening that will be required for the new Panamax ships that will be coming over when the Panama Canal deepening is complete in the next couple of years. I have been following the issue closely due to some infighting between Savannah and Charleston. Both want to deepen but it takes big $. If ports can't handle the Panamax boats they will rapidly lose market share. Right now, Norfolk is about the only port that's ready (there may be one more), but SC, NC, GA and FL are angling for federal dollars. The ramifications could be huge.
BeachSiO2 avatar
BeachSiO2Beach Fanatic
#4
I can't edit on my bberry. I was only talking about Atlantic Coast situation. Do not know about ports on the Gulf.
AlphaCrab avatar
AlphaCrabBeach Fanatic
#5
One step forward and two backwards. Scott prefers gas guzzling cars and careless big oil companies as the solution. This is not progress.
30ashopper avatar
30ashopperSoWal InsiderAuthor
#6
One step forward and two backwards. Scott prefers gas guzzling cars and careless big oil companies as the solution. This is not progress.

Americans love cars. Best to replace them with more fuel efficient vehicles. Trains don't work on a mass scale here.

We've been partying off the froth of the real estate bubble for years now. Scott's dragging the state back on the right track, yelling, kicking, and screaming if he has to.

Edited

GoodWitch58Beach Fanatic
#7
apparently the people in the Tampa Bay area don't think so:
Train wreck of a governor - St. Petersburg Times
Gov. Rick Scott rashly acted in his own political interests and sacrificed the best interests of Florida Wednesday by rejecting federal money for a high-speed rail line between Tampa and Orlando. It is a reckless, devastating decision that has nothing to do with the merits of rail and everything to do with Scott's obsession with courting the tea party movement and fighting the Obama administration. Florida's state legislators and members of Congress should explore every option in salvaging a project that holds so much promise for the state's economy and Tampa Bay's future.
If Scott were an honest broker looking out for Floridians, he would not have killed the project before putting it out to bid. He would have waited for an updated study on ridership and costs. The contention Wednesday by his press office that Scott has inside information is not good enough.

Scott took aim at the federal deficit and the Obama administration, which he intends to fight on every front regardless of Florida's needs. He fails to mention that the high-speed rail money is already committed and that Florida's money will just go to New York or another state with more vision. The reaction to such a foolish decision was biting and across the board. U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said he was disappointed, but noted: "There is overwhelming demand for high-speed rail in other states." U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor, a Tampa Democrat, blasted Scott for a "devastating lack of vision," and U.S. Rep. John Mica, the Winter Park Republican who chairs the House transportation panel, urged the governor to reconsider. State Sen. Jack Latvala, the Clearwater Republican who chairs the state Senate's Transportation Committee, said Scott's move was premature: "We've cut off our noses to spite our face."

That's putting it mildly. Scott did real harm to the Tampa Bay area, which has worked on a regional basis for years to improve area transit and to build the start of an integrated light rail system. Tampa Mayor Pam Iorio said she was "terribly disappointed," calling the move a "bad decision for all Floridians" that sends "a terrible message" to the business community. The state's powerful business lobby, Associated Industries, which had supported the rail plan, should be ashamed for kissing up to Scott by rationalizing the governor's move. In downtown Tampa alone, Scott's decision undermines tens of millions of dollars in public investment in housing, parks and retail. And it dampens the ongoing effort in Pinellas and across the bay to bring a major new mass transit initiative to the table.

The governor who travels in his private jet should look out the window the next time he flies over traffic-clogged Tampa Bay and Interstate 4. And when he looks for someone who could have created thousands of jobs and didn't, he can look in the mirror.

Edited

AlphaCrab avatar
AlphaCrabBeach Fanatic
#8
Americans love cars. Best to replace them with more fuel efficient vehicles. Trains don't work on a mass scale here.

We've been partying off the froth of the real estate bubble for years now. Scott's dragging the state back ... .

Quote from Obama's Press Secy' on the return of the 2.4 billion that was to go to us in Fla. Guess some "other" state(s) will receive a infrastructure windfall.

Scott is great at cost slashing without much thought to the process. His administration cannot work toward removing inefficiency and investing in new jobs, technology, new resources. He wants to take us backwards. Sad day for Florida--great day for Ohio and Michigan!


"There has been a lot of bipartisan support for the need to create the kind of modern infrastructure in this country that will enable us to compete. High speed rail is very much a part of that and we will make sure that that money is used elsewhere to advance the infrastructure and innovation agenda that is essential for economic growth".
rheffronBeach Fanatic
#9
Anybody notice gas creeping up towards 4.00 a gallon. Think it will hit 5.00 in your lifetime? Maybe the next 5 years? Does Scott realize that highways don't pay for themselves either?
scooterbug44 avatar
scooterbug44SoWal Expert
#10
Let me see if I am following correctly:

Bad - accepting federal money to build a high speed train system in an area that has been preparing its infrastructure for it

Because future usage is uncertain and there are big capital outlays.

Good - spending $$$ to deepen a port

Even though it hinges on a foreign project that isn't complete, future usage is uncertain, and there are big capital outlays.

Good Gravy.
BeachSiO2 avatar
BeachSiO2Beach Fanatic
#11
Let me see if I am following correctly:

Bad - accepting federal money to build a high speed train system in an area that has been preparing its infrastructure for it

Because future usage is uncertain and there are big capital outlays.

Good - spending $$$ to deepen a port

Even though it hinges on a foreign project that isn't complete, future usage is uncertain, and there are big capital outlays.

Good Gravy .

For the ports and shipping industry, which is still the number 1 way we receive imports, losing the Panamax battle cannot be understated. While I completely support the use of alternative transportation, we are talking apples and oranges when comparing economic impact this time. Talk about a Race to the Top, these port upgrades are of immense economic benefit to not only the state but the region and the nation. This is not speculation and the ports have to move quickly to be ready. Also, the ports have been preparing for these projects just like the high speed rail groups have been preparing for their projects.

What's missing is that they are two COMPLETELY different pots of money- highway, surface transportation monies vs Corps of Engineers money. I know some will say it's still our money/federal money. My point is that the monies come from different appropriations bills so they don't directly compete. Congress and the Administration can deem both of national significance and fund them separately.
30ashopper avatar
30ashopperSoWal InsiderAuthor
#12
Florida lawmakers have one week to cobble together a complicated deal that would give the $2.4 billion Gov. Rick Scott rejected Wednesday to another entity, such as Amtrak. But it would require approval of Scott, Sen. Bill Nelson just announced. "Right now, time is our enemy," he said. Members of Florida's congressional delegation met with U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, who outlined the deal Thursday afternoon. LaHood left without comment but was visibly rattled by Scott's move.

:clap:

Why don't they take that 2.4 billion and put it toward paying down the $1,600,000,000,000.00 federal deficit this year? These idiots must think money grows on trees.
GoodWitch58Beach Fanatic
#13
Scott’s high-speed imprudence - Editorials - MiamiHerald.com
Why would Gov. Rick Scott just say no to $2 billion in federal funding for a bullet train already approved by that the GOP-led Legislature ? a project that would create thousands of jobs for Florida?

Many people are asking that question after the governor canceled plans for a high-speed train line between Tampa and Orlando, which eventually would extend to Miami?s intermodal center near the airport. Many of those caught by surprise, in fact, are from the governor?s own party.

State Sen. Paula Dockery, an early supporter of Mr. Scott?s ?Let?s get to work? campaign, noted, ?It would be more prudent? for him to allow private companies to bid for the project and show how they would pay operating costs and any cost overruns before turning down the deal. As it is, she told the Herald/Times Tallahassee Bureau, there are seven teams from 11 countries ready to compete to build and run the bullet train.

Ms. Dockery is right. It was imprudent for the governor to unilaterally turn down an initial $300 million in federal stimulus dollars already appropriated by the Legislature ? in fact, he has no constitutional authority to do so. Florida Senate Budget Committee Chair J.D. Alexander and Senate Transportation Committee Chair Jack Latvala wondered as much, too.

This is a case of the governor putting his ideology before common sense ? even if it means turning down 14,000 jobs and eventually as many as 25,000 by the time the Miami leg would be completed.

Mr. Scott says the project would put Florida taxpayers at risk because of potential cost overruns and that ridership figures are too rosy. Those are good reasons to question the project?s viability ? except U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood and Chairman Mica worked hard in bipartisan fashion to ensure that Florida would not risk a penny because private companies bidding on the project would assume all cost overruns and operating expenses.

Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/02/17/2071609/scotts-high-speed-imprudence.html#ixzz1EG9ONVA7

I think this will get really interesting before it's over...

Edited

GoodWitch58Beach Fanatic
#14
it just got more interesting:

Scott rebuked by 26 senators over high-speed rail funding - Political Currents - MiamiHerald.com
A veto-proof majority of the Florida Senate tells federal officials to give Florida $2.4 billion in bullet train money, even though Gov. Rick Scott wants to reject it


Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/02/17/2072075/scott-rebuked-by-26-senators-over.html#ixzz1EGB0WHoE

Edited

beachmouse avatar
beachmouseBeach Fanatic
#15
The Florida Senate has enough votes to override any Scott attempts to kill the high speed rail project. It's gonna get really interesting if the House follows suit:

Veto-proof majority of Senate rebukes Rick Scott over high-speed rail | Florida politics blog: The Buzz | tampabay.com & St. Petersburg Times

Another interesting bit from Senate budget chief JD Alexander:

JD: Dear Gov., I think you broke the law | Florida politics blog: The Buzz | tampabay.com & St. Petersburg Times
30ashopper avatar
30ashopperSoWal InsiderAuthor
#16
Scott’s high-speed imprudence - Editorials - MiamiHerald.com

Why would Gov. Rick Scott just say no to $2 billion in federal funding for a bullet train already approved by that the GOP-led Legislature ? a project that would create thousands of jobs for Florida?

Many people are asking that question after the governor canceled plans for a high-speed train line between Tampa and Orlando, which eventually would extend to Miami?s intermodal center near the airport. Many of those caught by surprise, in fact, are from the governor?s own party.


I think this will get really interesting before it's over...


That guarantee there's no risk is completely bogus. The state can't prevent a business from walking away. The same thing has been tried on various other projects and in the end, taxpayers end up picking up the tab.

And no matter what an overly-optimistic company might agree to,if its special-purpose entity for Florida high-speed rail got in seriously over its head and walked away from the project after spending, say $3 billion (including the feds? $2.4 billion), what options would the state then have? With no way of repaying thefeds? money?now turned into concrete and steel?it would have nochoice but to spend state tax money finishing the project and then subsidizing its operations.

Florida Gov. Scott Rejects Flawed Orlando to Tampa High-Speed Rail Plan - Hit & Run : Reason Magazine

A team led by Oxford University Professor Bent Flyvbjerg studied more than 258 infrastructure megaprojects across the world and found passenger-rail systems experience cost overruns of 45 percent on average. If the current Tampa-Orlando cost estimate is off by that average ? 45 percent ? the project would need an additional $1.2 billion.

..

Just as worrisome: These types of large rail projects don't just cost more than expected to build; they cost more to operate. Flyvbjerg's research finds: "There is a massive and highly significant problem with inflated forecasts for rail projects. For two-thirds of the projects, [ridership] forecasts are overestimated by more than two-thirds."

2 views on high-speed rail | Derail it: Taxpayers would be on the hook - Orlando Sentinel
AlphaCrab avatar
AlphaCrabBeach Fanatic
#17
The Florida Senate has enough votes to override any Scott attempts to kill the high speed rail project. It's gonna get really interesting if the House follows suit:

Veto-proof majority of Senate rebukes Rick Scott over high-speed rail | Florida politics blog: The Buzz | tampabay.com & St. Petersburg Times

Another interesting bit from Senate budget chief JD Alexander:

JD: Dear Gov., I think you broke the law | Florida politics blog: The Buzz | tampabay.com & St. Petersburg Times


Best news I have hear all day-:clap:Let's rise up people, we now have a Mubarek on our hands here in Fla. The people of Florida have the power, not this disdainful corporate felon!
scooterbug44 avatar
scooterbug44SoWal Expert
#18
I must be dreaming - an actual political discussion about actual rules and procedures and the good of the state coming before political affiliations. 😀
beachmouse avatar
beachmouseBeach Fanatic
#19
We're all just kind of jointly watching Governor Scott learn the kinds of basic civics lessons that he was supposed to have picked up on in middle school.

The St. Pete's Times 'Dear Mr. Governor- you can't run the state as a CEO' article is now looking oddly prophetic.
GoodWitch58Beach Fanatic
#20
...and it is getting curiouser and curiouser....

J.D. Alexander Questions Plane Sale | TheLedger.com
A top Senate Republican, J.D. Alexander, R-Lake Wales, told the governor in a letter Thursday that he may have broken state law by his push to sell two state planes used to ferry his predecessors and other elected officials across the state.

The letter came one day after Gov. Rick Scott angered and disappointed both Republicans and Democrats in the Legislature with his decision to reject $2.4 billion in federal aid to build a high-speed rail line between Orlando and Tampa.

Edited

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