Public vs Private Beach

Actually in this case Walton County is only one party to the lawsuit and is actually the more minor party. The state of Florida is the more major party because the appeals court ruling invalidated a state statute. So whether or not Walton Cty wanted to continue the state would still have to defend their state statute. As for public funds, from a legal standpoint that is irrelevant, the material issue is that the state statute requires an ECL line and that ECL line is required no matter who pays.

One quick note as far as nourished beaches in Florida, you would be hard pressed to find many sandy beach areas in Florida that are not a state park, or federal land that has not been restored or is in some phase of planning for restoration.

Thanks for the insight! Just curious, is the state currently contributing funds to the SOB vs Walton County case?

I think I understand what you're saying in your 2nd paragraph...that unless it is a state or federal park, most beaches are restored or planned to be restored (for the benefit of DuneLaker).

Do you think the addition of the seawalls affects the criteria for "critically eroded"?

One quick note as far as nourished beaches in Florida, you would be hard pressed to find many sandy beach areas in Florida that are not a state park, or federal land that has not been restored or is in some phase of planning for restoration.

Please clarify that statement for me. I thought the state parks in our area - South Walton - had prevailed in keeping any unnatural restoration from intruding on their pristine condition. Observing them before and after the past years storms, due to their lack of buildings on or near the dunes, they seemed to have faired quite well. We are fortunate to have so many of our beaches as parks that are open to the public and not blighted with seawalls etc.

I meant those areas are the ones that have not or are not in planning for restoration, but other areas have. I see the confusion in what I wrote.

Thanks for the insight! Just curious, is the state currently contributing funds to the SOB vs Walton County case?

I think I understand what you're saying in your 2nd paragraph...that unless it is a state or federal park, most beaches are restored or planned to be restored (for the benefit of DuneLaker).

Do you think the addition of the seawalls affects the criteria for "critically eroded"?

To consolidate some info, I thought it might help to put out some links I found.

The state is a party to the lawsuit on Walton County's side. They used the solicitor general as their advocate at the Supreme Court Hearing. He is second only behind the Attorney General for the state as far as legislative counsel goes. They didn't use the FDEP Department attorney. Also, the Governor (Crist) gave permission to the Florida Department of Community Affairs Secretary, Tom Pelham to advocate on behalf of Walton County. So the state has definitely "invested" in the case. Here is the link to the Supreme Court case.
http://tinyurl.com/3c4jwh

Here is the report that defines "critically eroded" and I really don't have a good answer about seawalls. http://tinyurl.com/2vch5k

Also of note to some is the new public access bill in Fl. legislature this session. It's HB 1523 by Sasso and has a Senate companion.
http://tinyurl.com/2w4c4y

I meant those areas are the ones that have not or are not in planning for restoration, but other areas have. I see the confusion in what I wrote.

Do you think these State Parks' beaches, which haven't been manipulated by man, are in better condition than the other beaches which are crying out for restoration? If so, doesn't that give us a strong message of the importance of not building on the dune systems, and the need to let mother nature do her thing?

Do you think these State Parks' beaches, which haven't been manipulated by man, are in better condition than the other beaches which are crying out for restoration? If so, doesn't that give us a strong message of the importance of not building on the dune systems, and the need to let mother nature do her thing?

Only answering the bold part . Based on the collected data in Walton County, the answer is no. Some of the largest erosion losses are in Topsail Hill and Grayton Beach, especially volumetric losses. In some cases, huge frontal dunes have been eroded to a small percentage of their previous size. You really see this when you are looking for one of the FDEP monuments that used to be on the backside of a dune in a state park, and it's been washed out. Prior to the 2004/05 hurricane seasons the largest annual erosion losses were in Topsail Hill Preserve. The problem occurs when upland structures interact with the waves, water and beach, which is called "encroachment." If there is no interaction, then the physics aren't there to say upland houses, roads, trees, etc. have an effect. It's all about "siting." Unless of course you are talking about people excavating dunes and other stuff...

So are you suggesting that Tops'l and Grayton Beach SP beaches also are in need of restoration?

So are you suggesting that Tops'l and Grayton Beach SP beaches also are in need of restoration?

Nope :nono1:. I am suggesting that "health" from a scientific standpoint doesn't care if a beach is "developed" or "undeveloped." Only the people and critters that use it. So, you would best check with the Choctawhatchee Beach Mouse on the state parks they are the ones that are losing their "houses" (dunes).

Also, I would say there are some non-state park areas that don't need restoration...

That's interesting since you also state that most other beach is undergoing, or being planned for some type of restoration.

I spent a couple hours on the beach sunday (I've given up being productive after brunch). Saw maybe 10 people.

No condos = no crowds! ;-)

That's interesting since you also state that most other beach is undergoing, or being planned for some type of restoration.

Most is not all . Here are two examples- WaterSound and Bannerman Beach Lane. Why you ask... healthy beach and dune systems, and good siting.

Just wondered if there was some overlap of beaches which were in the process of restoration which you didn't think needed to be.

To consolidate some info, I thought it might help to put out some links I found.

The state is a party to the lawsuit on Walton County's side. They used the solicitor general as their advocate at the Supreme Court Hearing. He is second only behind the Attorney General for the state as far as legislative counsel goes. They didn't use the FDEP Department attorney. Also, the Governor (Crist) gave permission to the Florida Department of Community Affairs Secretary, Tom Pelham to advocate on behalf of Walton County. So the state has definitely "invested" in the case. Here is the link to the Supreme Court case.
http://tinyurl.com/3c4jwh

Here is the report that defines "critically eroded" and I really don't have a good answer about seawalls. http://tinyurl.com/2vch5k

Also of note to some is the new public access bill in Fl. legislature this session. It's HB 1523 by Sasso and has a Senate companion.
http://tinyurl.com/2w4c4y

Great Info!! I'm still digesting all the references even though I've seen the DEP pdf on critical erosion. Which, as you know, contains this definition of critically eroded:

When looking at the DEP map as to which beaches are "critically eroded" in Walton County, it appears to be about 50% of the total coastline. If only this 50% is renourished, would not the coastline eventually equalize as sand moves around during future storms? It seems to me parts of the beach will be getting nourishment benefits but not have to go through the ECL process.​

Thanks for the links, responses and civil exchange.
;-)(c)BMBV​

To Beach sio2 in regards to the studies of beach erosion at state parks . I believe a major point missing in the study is the idea of the "causes" of erosion being more than just the "wave action meeting with upland structures".

Did the study account for the fact that a major percentage at least half i believe of the cause of the dunes being knock down and completely cut through was the wood and trex debris from the numerous WALKOVERS from as far away as Inlet Beach and all points in between ending up at grayton and western lake. I believe there were over 100 dumpster loads removed from grayton state park and western lake after 04/05...

To Beach sio2 in regards to the studies of beach erosion at state parks . I believe a major point missing in the study is the idea of the "causes" of erosion being more than just the "wave action meeting with upland structures".

Did the study account for the fact that a major percentage at least half i believe of the cause of the dunes being knock down and completely cut through was the wood and trex debris from the numerous WALKOVERS from as far away as Inlet Beach and all points in between ending up at grayton and western lake. I believe there were over 100 dumpster loads removed from grayton state park and western lake after 04/05...

FWIW, videos taken during hurricane Dennis show the tremendous erosion done by wave action long before the debris came floating by. In other words, the damage from the debris itself is, I believe, minimal. Why do you want to suggest otherwise without any evidence?

I cannot recall for certain, but I believe that GBSP was also a staging area to hold the debris from the beach, until the dumptrucks could haul it away, and that was why so much debris was there.

bmbv: there was plenty of evidence of holes in dunes with massive amounts of wood left sitting right behind, in front of and on top of the dune lines and in the coastal lakes. The state parks will be the only unarmored beaches along 30-a as neighboring adjacent beach fronts from inlet to Miramar armor up. When the seawalls are built the flow naturally bounces off and down to the areas with less resistance. Add this effect to the additional previous effect of lowering adjacent beaches by the scraping and you get the massive reduction in dune height and sand volume. Evidence, yes volumes of evidence. We live on a barrier island for all practical purposes. The nature of that means the rolling towards the mainland from front to back over time and thru storm action. To think the erosion of unprotected areas such as parks will not be accelerated and a be a direct result of the development on adjacent beaches is just silly.

To Beach sio2 in regards to the studies of beach erosion at state parks . I believe a major point missing in the study is the idea of the "causes" of erosion being more than just the "wave action meeting with upland structures".

Did the study account for the fact that a major percentage at least half i believe of the cause of the dunes being knock down and completely cut through was the wood and trex debris from the numerous WALKOVERS from as far away as Inlet Beach and all points in between ending up at grayton and western lake. I believe there were over 100 dumpster loads removed from grayton state park and western lake after 04/05...

The impact from structures would be minimal in comparison to storm surge and associated waves. Plus it doesn't explain that when comapring 1872-2002 that Topsail Hill State Preserve had the highest erosion rates in Walton County.

FWIW, videos taken during hurricane Dennis show the tremendous erosion done by wave action long before the debris came floating by. In other words, the damage from the debris itself is, I believe, minimal.

I would agree

I cannot recall for certain, but I believe that GBSP was also a staging area to hold the debris from the beach, until the dumptrucks could haul it away, and that was why so much debris was there.

This is correct

bmbv: there was plenty of evidence of holes in dunes with massive amounts of wood left sitting right behind, in front of and on top of the dune lines and in the coastal lakes. The state parks will be the only unarmored beaches along 30-a as neighboring adjacent beach fronts from inlet to Miramar armor up. When the seawalls are built the flow naturally bounces off and down to the areas with less resistance. Add this effect to the additional previous effect of lowering adjacent beaches by the scraping and you get the massive reduction in dune height and sand volume. Evidence, yes volumes of evidence. We live on a barrier island for all practical purposes. The nature of that means the rolling towards the mainland from front to back over time and thru storm action. To think the erosion of unprotected areas such as parks will not be accelerated and a be a direct result of the development on adjacent beaches is just silly.

Your arguing future versus present in regards to seawalls and impacts. Not saying you are wrong as they will have impacts. They just haven't yet.

As for scraping lowering the volume of sand in dunes that's incorrect because the sand that was scraped was put at the base of the dunes so adding sand to a dune will not lower the volume of sand at a dune.

The reason why the debris was deposited at the coastal dune lakes and in the holes is because they were the low spots. The same thing happened in non state park areas like Alligator Lake, Eastern Lake, Camp Creek, etc. The debris didn't discriminate between which lakes were in state parks and which ones weren't.

Finally, in regards to living on a barrier island, that is incorrect. Sowal's underlying geology is a a Pleistocene Mainland complex. In simple terms, barrier islands were formed in the past 14k years during the Holocene Period and since the last low sea level stand. That is the thin layer of white sand that you see that overlays the Pleistocene Mainland. As seen after the hurricanes, the underlying dunes are not white quartz sand. They are iron stained quartz formed from between about 1.5 million years ago and 14,000 years ego. That is the Pleistocene Mainland complex that makes up the majority of sowal.

"for all practical purposes" was part of the living on a barrier island in my statement. i was speaking in regards to the the erosion on our beach fronts being the same as for instance Pensacola Beach/Santa Rosa island.

Beach scrapings adding volume to dunes (wishful thinking) is only true until the next wave washes the softened sand away to a new location. And my point was that adjacent beaches are affected and negatively. When you start at the water line and scrape to the dunes line you lower the beach which allows even smaller waves to rush to the dune base.

Lakes being low spots makes sense as a catchers mitt for debris. And of course the erosion from a 25 foot strorm surge with 20 foot waves on top will be much more destructive than just thousand of pounds of floating debris crashing into the dunes "all by it self." But i would not call the effect of the structues bashing dune tops and middles minimal.

As you mentioned i do believe future erosion in the non fortified natural areas will be accelerated by adjacent beach activities. I was not around in 1872 but in 1952 i can tell you that there were hundreds of higher more majectic dunes from Pensacola to to Mexico Beach and i may be wrong on nature vs. development which knocked down more dunes but my guess would be the big "D".

And my opinion is that your opinion, Busta Hustle, is incorrect. Look at the area between the end of Marler bridge and Brooks bridge on Okaloosa Island. The dune system along much of the area completely disappeared during OPal. They are just now beginning to return. There is no development anywhere along this stretch of beach. I am against uncontrolled development as much as anybody, but it is far from being the main reason for beach erosion from all I've seen since 1991.

Finally, in regards to living on a barrier island, that is incorrect. Sowal's underlying geology is a a Pleistocene Mainland complex. In simple terms, barrier islands were formed in the past 14k years during the Holocene Period and since the last low sea level stand. That is the thin layer of white sand that you see that overlays the Pleistocene Mainland. As seen after the hurricanes, the underlying dunes are not white quartz sand. They are iron stained quartz formed from between about 1.5 million years ago and 14,000 years ego. That is the Pleistocene Mainland complex that makes up the majority of sowal.

I never knew that, I always thought the exposed dark orange sand was from previous faulty dune restoration attempts - very cool info, thanks!

"for all practical purposes" was part of the living on a barrier island in my statement. i was speaking in regards to the the erosion on our beach fronts being the same as for instance Pensacola Beach/Santa Rosa island.

Beach scrapings adding volume to dunes (wishful thinking) is only true until the next wave washes the softened sand away to a new location. And my point was that adjacent beaches are affected and negatively. When you start at the water line and scrape to the dunes line you lower the beach which allows even smaller waves to rush to the dune base.

Lakes being low spots makes sense as a catchers mitt for debris. And of course the erosion from a 25 foot strorm surge with 20 foot waves on top will be much more destructive than just thousand of pounds of floating debris crashing into the dunes "all by it self." But i would not call the effect of the structues bashing dune tops and middles minimal.

As you mentioned i do believe future erosion in the non fortified natural areas will be accelerated by adjacent beach activities. I was not around in 1872 but in 1952 i can tell you that there were hundreds of higher more majectic dunes from Pensacola to to Mexico Beach and i may be wrong on nature vs. development which knocked down more dunes but my guess would be the big "D".

BH

I want you to know that my point was not to argue with you but to outline that there has been a tremendous amount of scientific data that has been collected and analyzed about SOWAL and to highlight some of the things that have been learned. Here's another attempt.

One it isn't accurate to compare Walton County to ANY other area in Florida. We are a pleistocene mainland, not a barrier island and are not subject to overwash like barrier islands. Our 25-60 foot high dunes do not allow that process to occur so that is a red herring.

Secondly you stated that scraping only places sand at the dune until the next storm. I agree but how is that any different than aeolian transport. The sand that is blown from the beach naturally to the dunes is also loose and will likely wash away at the next storm. I was not debating the effect of the scraping on the beach but since you mentioned it. In Walton Cty after Ivan, it consisted of the movement of sand along the waters edge to the toe of the dune not across the entire beach and was a miniscule amount that provided emergency protection for TS Arlene. No scraping was done after Dennis. That being said, there was a study conducted in Walton Cty that documented after Opal that the beaches that were scraped recovered as quickly as the beaches that were not scraped so they could not discern a negative impact. That study was commissioned by the FDEP.

As for structure impacts, I was once again speaking of a specific time period from before Ivan to after Dennis. There was only about a 6-8 ft storm surge with about a 2-4 ft wave and Ivan was largest storm on record to have impacted sowal since the late 1800's. In this case the waves impacted the bottom of the dunes leading to more of a cliff failure scenario where the toe is washed out and the top falls. Not an overwash so structures were primarily bouncing around the beach and toe of the dune. The losses were on the order of 20-30 cubic yards of sand per foot of beach in some areas. As an expert in this field, I would say with some level of confidence that structure impacts were minimal compared to water. Moreover the damage of foot traffic if walkovers weren't used where we have the high dunes would lead to more damage to the dune system than storm debris.

Finally, I agree that the number one danger to the beach and dunes in Sowal is improper siting of structures along the dune areas in Walton County. However, we haven't seen those impacts yet, and won't until those structures are hit by waves and storm surge.

On a side note, this is a lot of typing on a PDA so I expect some rep points

Great stuff bsio...i have not compared walton county to any other areas of florida only the effects of beach erosion to the beach FRONTS and most forward dune systems. i agree that we are miles from north to south and not a sand bar, wash over from beach to bay will not occur. however i'm pretty sure there were 60 ft. dunes recently(geologically speaking and say the last 100 years) as close as Dune Allen and Miramar that are no longer there due in large part to the houses and walkovers as much as waves. So thinking that a 25 or even 60 foot dune 'will not allow wash over' making my arguement a red herring, smells a litle fishy.

I also believe that walkovers are a much greater destructive force on the dune system than a walkover path topped with natural materials. The post sunk into the dune system being yanked out by waves leave gapping holes and then do more than minimal damage to the down flow beach fronts.

The difference from aeolian transport and scraping is that tax dollars are not spent.and while i will not argue that the scrape beaches may have recovered for now the lowering of elevation in one area negatively effects the adjacent beach.

As a non expert in the field i would agree that the structural damage from walkover debris was minimal COMPARED to the water damage.(common sense) It however added to the destruction at the point of yank out and bash and drag points. We will have to disagree on the fact that foot traffic would be more destructive. The simple fix for foot traffic is to add a little more sand and natural materials and not millions for screws nails bolts wood trex labor and then labor trucks dumpsters, $$$ and land fills for debris and then more labor etc. etc for the rebuild.

We have already seen a huge impact of improper siting and unfortunately may see more. The west end of the county is the best example. What was the total $$$ spent on west end restoration? I thank you sharing the info from your studies.

You know, this has been one bastardized thread. It was a spin-off thanks to Kurt to published beach access. Then "we" rehashed public vs. private because some felt it necessary. Then we got into beach nourishment because of the ECL and public implications. Now some are debating holes in the sand left from ripped out walkovers during a storm cause significant damage.

BeachSiO2, although I may strongly disagree with many of the "political" viewpoints with the county and TDC (which you may or may not share), I do believe you know your profession. Too bad others can't or won't see that. And I don't say that lightly.

Andy the pass itself and the jetty at east pass adjacent to officers club beach towards brooks has greatly accelerated the destruction of that area.

BeachSiO2, I am definitely with BMBV on this one as much as we disagree on other issues. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize you know what you are talking about. Thanks for the great posts and much needed information.