Public vs Private Beach

bmbv i suport you legal deeded given right to throw folks off your private beach as long as you are self or privately insured and the deed that gives that right was not done against state federal or laws of nature. I trust you will never accept county state or fema money. i also support your efforts to stop the wasteful practices of beach restoration. I also support your efforts to dissolve Citizens Insurance. I know you only want what is yours and what you can keep with out assistance from the gov. and your fellow citizens.

BH
One it isn't accurate to compare Walton County to ANY other area in Florida. We are a pleistocene mainland, not a barrier island and are not subject to overwash like barrier islands. Our 25-60 foot high dunes do not allow that process to occur so that is a red herring.

When you say overwash, is that meaning total flooding of the area? I know during Hurricane Opal, a cat 1 storm at landfall, that Dune Allen area was flooded with houses on the north side of 30A having water 8-10 feet inside. And many of the dunes are no longer present as they were before the storm. And after those were taken, instead of allowing them to rebuild, houses were put in their previous locations.

Also it is very hard to believe that Walton County is totally unique in it's makeup. How in the world did God know where we were going to place the county lines? Oops! Stupid question.

bmbv i suport you legal deeded given right to throw folks off your private beach as long as you are self or privately insured and the deed that gives that right was not done against state federal or laws of nature. I trust you will never accept county state or fema money. i also support your efforts to stop the wasteful practices of beach restoration. I also support your efforts to dissolve Citizens Insurance. I know you only want what is yours and what you can keep with out assistance from the gov. and your fellow citizens.

BH, you're extrapolating a little on the heavy side here...not worthy of a real response.

Aaahh what the hell...

1. I will defend my rights to my private property.
2. I haven't accepted county or state money because they haven't offer it.
3. I haven't received any "free" FEMA money. Are you non-supportive of those in NOLA who have accepted FEMA money for losses incurred from Hurricane Katrina (insured or uninsured)?
4. Who said anything about dissolving Citizens Insurance which would affect all property owners, not just gulf front? But I know you know that. Right? I just can't understand why you mention it here.
5. Yes, I would like to keep what is mine.

I believe I've covered all your points.

That being said, there was a study conducted in Walton Cty that documented after Opal that the beaches that were scraped recovered as quickly as the beaches that were not scraped so they could not discern a negative impact. That study was commissioned by the FDEP.

If this study was done after Opal, and it proved that beaches which were not scraped, recovered as quickly as the beaches which were scraped, why the hell did scraping continue after Katrina?

Also, if you listen to enough old timers around here, they will tell you about a time when supposedly the Gulf waters washed all the way down what we now call Bay Drive. Isn't that a washover?

If this study was done after Opal, and it proved that beaches which were not scraped, recovered as quickly as the beaches which were scraped, why the hell did scraping continue after Katrina?

Also, if you listen to enough old timers around here, they will tell you about a time when supposedly the Gulf waters washed all the way down what we now call Bay Drive. Isn't that a washover?

Wasn't that Hurricane Elena in 1975? I think it was a cat 1 storm also. The EOC study on tidal surge use to say that south Walton would be underwater with a cat 3 surge. In fact water would be almost to Freeport.

1. I will defend my rights to my private property.
2. I haven't accepted county or state money because they haven't offer it.
3. I haven't received any "free" FEMA money. Are you non-supportive of those in NOLA who have accepted FEMA money for losses incurred from Hurricane Katrina (insured or uninsured)?
4. Who said anything about dissolving Citizens Insurance which would affect all property owners, not just gulf front? But I know you know that. Right? I just can't understand why you mention it here.
5. Yes, I would like to keep what is mine.

I believe I've covered all your points.

Are you insured by Citizen's? If you are, then you are subsidized by public funds. Now your private property is yours, but we all help you keep it. Dissolving Citizen's would affect the majority of property owners (and drivers, and boat owners, and renters, and everyone else who pays that line item on their insurance policy for Citizen's) positively in lower premiums. It just makes sense that anyone who opposes beach restoration with public funds would also oppose subsidizing hazard insurance with public funds.

The people in NOLA who got FEMA money, got that money to help them survive - to buy groceries, and pay rent in the apartments they had to move to when their homes were destroyed. They didn't get FEMA money to replace sand in front of their homes to make the beach just as wide as it was before Katrina - a beach that they can then call private and throw people off of.

I think it is silly to say that one beachfront property owner can do whatever they want to "their" beach, and to assume that there is no effect on their neighbor, or to the public beaches which are close by. If you have a private beach walkover that rips away and destroys public beach dunes, you may need to pay an impact fee. If you armor your beach, and that causes erosion at a public beach to the east or west, you may need to pay an impact fee. To treat the beach as though it can be divided into 100-foot chunks which are completely independent of one another is laughable.

The county obviously thinks that if you put your seawall on public property, you owe the county $500 a year (which is quite a bargain). Maybe they have sent you a bill for beach clean up if you had a private walkover that ended up at topsail.

BMBV, are you privately or self-insured?

Wasn't that Hurricane Elena in 1975? I think it was a cat 1 storm also. The EOC study on tidal surge use to say that south Walton would be underwater with a cat 3 surge. In fact water would be almost to Freeport.

I don't know what happened with Elena, back in '75. The storm I've heard about was back around the 19Teens. Storm surge maps for WalCo are available online with the GIS, and they don't concur with the old EOC study. If you haven't seen the storm surge maps, they are very interesting, though may be scary to some people. Fortunately, many areas of development don't look too bad, but there are some areas which would make me nervous.

I don't know what happened with Elena, back in '75. The storm I've heard about was back around the 19Teens. Storm surge maps for WalCo are available online with the GIS, and they don't concur with the old EOC study. If you haven't seen the storm surge maps, they are very interesting, though may be scary to some people. Fortunately, many areas of development don't look too bad, but there are some areas which would make me nervous.

I will take a look. I remember one meeting where the State had told us that the county was going to have to declare any area negatively impacted by a Cat 1 storm as non-buildable around 1996 or so. The information we had would have made all of that land around Paradise by the Sea off limits as well as just about everything around Rosemary and Alys. One south Walton commissioner came and looked over what we had come up with, needless to say, that was a State mandate that was put in a drawer and ignored.

On another note, since traffic was backed up on 331 North of DeFuniak to Walton Road for over 2 hours today, I imagine this private vs public beach thing is going to get a workout next week. Awfully busy this early in the season.

Interestingly, BMB, the main area of recent problems of private vs public beach, has looked pitifully slow compared to other areas to the east, from Grayton to Rosemary.

Are you insured by Citizen's? If you are, then you are subsidized by public funds. Now your private property is yours, but we all help you keep it. Dissolving Citizen's would affect the majority of property owners (and drivers, and boat owners, and renters, and everyone else who pays that line item on their insurance policy for Citizen's) positively in lower premiums. It just makes sense that anyone who opposes beach restoration with public funds would also oppose subsidizing hazard insurance with public funds.

The people in NOLA who got FEMA money, got that money to help them survive - to buy groceries, and pay rent in the apartments they had to move to when their homes were destroyed. They didn't get FEMA money to replace sand in front of their homes to make the beach just as wide as it was before Katrina - a beach that they can then call private and throw people off of.

I think it is silly to say that one beachfront property owner can do whatever they want to "their" beach, and to assume that there is no effect on their neighbor, or to the public beaches which are close by. If you have a private beach walkover that rips away and destroys public beach dunes, you may need to pay an impact fee. If you armor your beach, and that causes erosion at a public beach to the east or west, you may need to pay an impact fee. To treat the beach as though it can be divided into 100-foot chunks which are completely independent of one another is laughable.

The county obviously thinks that if you put your seawall on public property, you owe the county $500 a year (which is quite a bargain). Maybe they have sent you a bill for beach clean up if you had a private walkover that ended up at topsail.

BMBV, are you privately or self-insured?

First of all, there is one quote in your post that tells me you don't have a clue with what you're talking about:

"They didn't get FEMA money to replace sand in front of their homes to make the beach just as wide as it was before Katrina - a beach that they can then call private and throw people off of. "

Where in the hell did you come up with that? Your inference that FEMA or any other public or government agency paid for our sand hauled in after Ivan and after Dennis is utterly and completely false. The money came directly out of our pockets.

Next topic:
Yes, we have Citizens....for wind coverage like the majority of Florida property owners. Wind is no different on the gulf than it is, let's say, 1/4 mile off the gulf. A Cat 4 will damage the majority of us. So, your bringing up Citizens has NOTHING to do with anything on this thread.

Now regarding my SUPPOSED opposition of beach restoration with public funds:
I recognize there are areas in Florida that have absolutely no choice but to renourish the beaches. I can even get along with the ECL concept. BUT here's my problem... How, when and who decides that a beach needs nourishment?

Taking a look at BMB this morning, it sure seems to me that the beach is looking pretty darn good.

So, in my book of logical reasoning, expending between 50 and 100 million dollars has to be looked at with dubious tinted sunglasses. In simple language, if the beach looks pretty good today, why would "we" spend all that money for beach nourishment? For preemptive reasons? I doubt it. The only reason, in my honest opinion, would be to effectively make those beaches public which would then set Walton County on the same (development) course as Destin and Panama City. I personally don't think that's desirable (unless you're a developer or a commissioner with similar motivations).

Regarding your repeated comments about damage to dunes from floating walkovers:
I gave you an honest observation based on hurricane Dennis videos. You ignore that. Then BeachSiO2 basically confirms the fact that it is the water (surge and waves) that does the real damage. You are apparently set in your views.

You mention seawalls on a public beach as well as the $500 "leases". This has nothing to do with anyone that I know of in Blue Mountain Beach including my property.

BH, you are all over the place...debris causing more destruction than water, Citizens, FEMA, seawalls, leases, beach nourishment, publc/private beaches...

My sense is that you just don't think beaches can be private property. And you will try to "shotgun" your way to try to back your position.

If you were to focus on your REAL concern, maybe we could have a reasonable dialog.

Beach sio2 and i were having a very civil and informative discussion. Some people never knew about the Pleistocine mainland info. We respect each others opinions.

You have Citizens Insurance so every other insurance policy in Florida pays a line item to supplement your premium so that it is affordable to you and the system stays solvent. Did you get a quote from your former Insurer? How much money have your fellow Floridians saved you? And no, most of us do NOT have Citizens. Come on bmbvagrant get off the Government insurance and pay your own way.

Do you have one of those large wooden walkovers at your place? did you have to replace it twice since the storms of 2004/2005? If yes, when it came apart did all the debris stay on your property? Did you then do all of the clean up debris removal on you own, or did your fellow sowallers and tourist through bed taxes help foot the bill? bmb vagrant a little impact fee check from you to the tdc for the clean up would be a great gesture on your part to show you are willing to do your part. We will even overlook the "minimal" damage it may have caused to other areas. If none of this happened at your place then Bravo.

Is your place old enough to still be using a septic tank? If you do, if it washes out in the next storm like the ones at Gulf Place did last storm will you be doing the environmental clean up on your own or will your fellow sowallers be sharing those expenses? If you have a septic do the right thing, pay the impact fee to hook up to sewer. If you have never had a septic or already hooked up to sewer then BRAVO.

I'll let you answer and address these items and there is so much more to discuss. Looking forward to it bmbvagrant.

Can we agree on 1 point to start? No tax $$$ for beach restoration!

I am going to try and hit as many scientific pts as I can so let me know if I miss something. BMBV I hope you don't mind if I tangent the thread just a bit more.

When you say overwash, is that meaning total flooding of the area? I know during Hurricane Opal, a cat 1 storm at landfall, that Dune Allen area was flooded with houses on the north side of 30A having water 8-10 feet inside. And many of the dunes are no longer present as they were before the storm.

Also it is very hard to believe that Walton County is totally unique in it's makeup. How in the world did God know where we were going to place the county lines? Oops! Stupid question.

1. You are right about Opal and I have those pictures somewhere, but I was discussing overwash in regards to barrier island migration. One common argument about Walton Cty is that it is a barrier island that is migrating northward. For this to occur, there would have to be overwash from the Gulf into the bay, like Okaloosa Island. My point was that some sand is moved landward of the dunes in limited areas, primarily low-lying like Coastal Dune lakes but not in areas where we have the substantial Pleistocene dunes.

2. Is it really that hard. ;-) Then how do we explain the uniqueness of coastal dune lakes only in the US and a few other areas. Our coastal area is that unique. That being said, here is the link to the FDEP long range beach management plan that shows the different geologic zones.

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/beaches/publications/gen-pub.htm#Strategic_Management_Plan

If this study was done after Opal, and it proved that beaches which were not scraped, recovered as quickly as the beaches which were scraped, why the hell did scraping continue after Katrina?

Also, if you listen to enough old timers around here, they will tell you about a time when supposedly the Gulf waters washed all the way down what we now call Bay Drive. Isn't that a washover?

The study found that there was a benefit to the dunes as there was more sand there after the scraping than before, and no significant difference to the beach. The majority of scraping was after Ivan and before TS Arlene, not after Katrina. The purpose of the scraping was to create emergency protective low dunes that would protect the toe of the remaining dune features from a storm around the size of T.S. Arlene. If you noticed after Arlene, the scraped berm was eroded in areas but I don't know of any area where the post Ivan dune was eroded until Hurricane Dennis. So it performed as expected.

I can't say I would agree with this. The water that they likely saw was from the bay not from the Gulf.

The EOC study on tidal surge use to say that south Walton would be underwater with a cat 3 surge. In fact water would be almost to Freeport.

In a true direct hit from a Cat 3 that is moving onshore slowly, the most at risk areas in Sowal from storm surge are not the properties south of hwy 98, but the areas north of 98 due to the fact that are dunes are high and the land is lower north of 98 than south of 98, except around the dune lakes but even there the flooding would be very centralized like it was in Dune Allen with Opal. Yes, the areas south of Freeport would be in trouble.

The information we had would have made all of that land around Paradise by the Sea off limits as well as just about everything around Rosemary and Alys. One south Walton commissioner came and looked over what we had come up with, needless to say, that was a State mandate that was put in a drawer and ignored.

I am not sure this is accurate as the most at risk areas along the gulf-front from a storm surge inundation perspective would be near the Coastal Dune Lakes not in Seacrest as they have fairly high dunes. As a matter of fact from a storm erosion perspective only, I would say the safest property in all of Sowal is the condo, Tranquility by the Sea, which is located just to the east of Alys beach. The building would likely collapse before the dune in front of it would.

great stuff once again Bsio2...in regards to Blue Mountain Beach. The beach(from redfish to 83) now goes under water to the toe of the dune with almost any low pressure in the nearby gulf and a light wind generated push. Do they have any other methods of defense other than armoring up?

great stuff once again Bsio2...in regards to Blue Mountain Beach. The beach now goes under water to the toe of the dune with almosy any low pressure in the nearby gulf and a light wind generated push. Do they have any other chance to stay seaward of the cccl line other than armoring up?

Hopefully no one is trying to build seaward of the CCCL as that is bad news anyway, but I would imagine that most (not all) of the older properties in BMB would meet the eligibility and vulnerability conditions and be granted permits by FDEP. The newer properties will have problems being eligible as they were built after the establishment of the CCCL and have incorporated most of the best management practices into their design.

On another note, with the recent changes to the beach and dune systems, the FDEP is re-analyzing the current CCCL in all panhandle counties except Bay. This will likely result in moving the CCCL even more landward. Keep in mind that is a line of jurisdiction, not prohibition so there could still be houses seaward of that line permitted if they meet certain conditions. That being said, I would be building as far landward as I could on my property in any case and put my parking under my house.

This best option for protecting property that is already developed and not at immediate risk for a storm is to construct and MAINTAIN a healthy dune. In some cases where the house is teetering on the edge or is within a few feet of the edge of a bluff, this is not likely as we saw 30+ cubic yards of sand lost in Sowal with Hurricanes Ivan and Dennis. If I was having this concern, I would contact a QUALIFIED COASTAL engineer to give me a site analysis. Civil engineers are good at what they do, but they are really not versed in the nuances of coastal processes.

Right on in every way...now if we can just have those owners do all this with their "private" funds.

On 1 other note...i can't wait for the new fema flood maps. Can you speak a little bit about cobra zones and the residential area behind the topsail park beach and dune systems?

BH, I'll say one thing for you...you're consistent.

After I blow your adversarial quote out of the water...

"They didn't get FEMA money to replace sand in front of their homes to make the beach just as wide as it was before Katrina - a beach that they can then call private and throw people off of. "

you make no comment in return. Yet you still manage to generate even another distractive statement regarding, of all things, crapper tanks. And no, we're on sewer.

Most everyone lost their walkovers during the hurricanes. What does that have to do with anything on this thread? In the past, I have suggested a "recovery" fee be built into every walkover permit. But I don't expect you to know that.

BustaHustle, beach nourishment is the CHEAPEST way to resolve the private/public beach problem. You just can't see that. Although I am not in favor of an automatic beach nourishment policy, I can see where everyone COULD benefit from the program where beach nourishment is absolutely NEEDED.

I think I've narrowed your concerns to 2 things:
1. You don't like that all beaches are not public.
2. You don't want the government helping private property owners in any way.

Is that a fair assessment of your position? If so, what's your priority?

homes in BMB, between 83 and Big Redfish, have been rebuilt, and they are south of the CCCL, according to the maps. IMO, some should have never been allowed to rebuild in place after the storms washed away much of the sand under the homes.

I am going to try and hit as many scientific pts as I can so let me know if I miss something. BMBV I hope you don't mind if I tangent the thread just a bit more. .....

That was no more tangential than anything else here. I too have learned quite a bit from your posts. Hopefully I've returned the favor here and there. ;-)

Right on in every way...now if we can just have those owners do all this with their "private" funds.

On 1 other note... I can't wait for the new fema flood maps. Can you speak a little bit about cobra zones and the residential area behind the topsail park beach and dune systems?

Another tangent BMBV, but hopefully useful..

Here's a little of what I know. First everyone in the Country can purchase federal flood insurance and it is not limited to ones who live in "flood zones." In the United States, the majority of policy owners live along inland areas and not along the coast. The coastal owners are less than 5% of the insurance pool and the maximum coverage is $250,000. That being said, the lion's share of premiums are paid for by those coastal properties. Except for the impacts of Katrina, coastal premiums had far surpassed coastal payouts every year that they were collected. That is not the same as inland properties. The floods that you see every year along the Nation's great rivers almost ALWAYS are subsidized by the coastal owner. One of the glaring problems is how to have inland properties be built to better standards to reduce those costs.

Another point is that outside of Katrina, the National Flood Insurance Program was in a positive cash flow situation. The problem with Katrina was not the people who paid for flood insurance, it was the people in coastal Mississippi that did not. They relied upon the government telling them they were at risk through the mapping process when they could see the water from the house. As a matter of fact, many people argue with the current mapping process and have studies done to move the lines so that there mortgage bank doesn't make them buy it. Here is the best advice I can give anyone in sowal....

If you can see a coastal water body (gulf, lake, bay) from your house BUY FLOOD INSURANCE!!! If you are in an X zone it will be really cheap and it is dumb not to do. This is even more important for properties along the Bay and north of 98 as they are even more susceptible to flooding one day than people along the Santa Rosa Ridge.

As for COBRA zones, they were defined by USFWS as areas that would be ineligible for any federal expenditures in those areas and were designed to limit development. I know of the properties you are speaking of and their efforts to adjust the COBRA zones along western lake but don't know the specifics.

That was no more tangential than anything else here. I too have learned quite a bit from your posts. Hopefully I've returned the favor here and there. ;-)

That you have...

homes in BMB, between 83 and Big Redfish, have been rebuilt, and they are south of the CCCL, according to the maps. IMO, some should have never been allowed to rebuild in place after the storms washed away much of the sand under the homes.

That's the old 50% damaged rule, allowing rebuilds if less than 50% value is not lost. I met with one unnamed owner in that area and told them emphatically that it was not a good idea to rebuild their house in the current position but to tear it down and rebuild it in a more landward position and park underneath. My advice was not heeded...

I bet you are talking about the home west and adjacent to the eastern most public access from 83. I cannot believe they rebuilt on the same spot. Some people never learn. I often observe ants in my yard. They are fascinating and intelligent creatures. Sometimes when I watch them, I think of the ants as the characters in Huxley's Brave New World. One of the interesting observations is that if ants build a mound, then I start using that area, stepping on the ant bed, often, the ants pack up and move out to another area. They will continue to move, until they stop getting their home destroyed. If only people could be as smart as ants.

bmbvagrant
1. wrong: i support your legal right to have your private beach since it was deeded to you by the county(if that deeding did not break state or federal laws) when you purchased. i support your right to prevent trespass equally as i would any other property owner.
2. wrong: government support IS tax, PUBLIC money. i gladly support the "free" fema $$$ like the $3000 or so that was received by people as emergency funds to protect life and limb and for food and shelter. Most other FEMA $$ comes in the form of "loans" which is fine with me.

I do not support Citizens Insurance use of PUBLIC tax $$$ for PRIVATE property. Citizens makes the single mom in Defuniak who only buys car insurance and does not own a home, subsidize your beach front wind insurance. You should pay that private bill with your PRIVATE funds. i think once you have accepted Public funds to help pay for your Private insurance bill then just maybe your private beach just becomes "a little" more shall we say publically "funded" every year until you get off Citizens Insurance. As a staunch individualist or at least PRIVATE property rights activist at least on this thread I would not have guessed you would accept PUBLIC $$$ support for you private wind insurance.

Your are on sewer, as i said before BRAVO...you suggested to pay and impact fee for your walkovers(and seawall if you have 1) BRAVO...now just go ahead and actually cut the check and your PRIVATE beach stays even more so...

To say that Citizens Insurance has nothing to do with this thread....but that is the heart of the matter(or maybe at least a footnote)...PUBLIC $$$ supports your PRIVATE PROPERTY. And yes I'm against it across the board not just your Private property.

Lastly for now...I am totally against PUBLIC MONEY to be spent on sand or beach restoration except for the support of utilities such as roads water sewer etc. If your PRIVATE property has no beach i think you are deeded to rebuild with your PRIVATE $$$
on the area within your property lines after proper permitting and impact fees if doing so affects other PRIVATE or PUBLIC properties.

I think the beaches support themselves quite naturally and there are no emergency cases of needed restoration with PUBLIC funds just to "WIDEN" a place that used to be wide. As long as PRIVATE funds support PRIVATE beaches great. Without a public vote for restoration of public beaches i'm against...It's milliions of PUBLIC $$$$ to push sand around...

Walton County is unique. Walton County is very unique WaltonGOP. Besides the large number of coastal dune lakes, we have the highest elevation in Florida at Britton Hill in the Lakewood area near Paxton. Cool place to visit for all who haven't been there. It is the lowest "high" in the United States. Just take 331 north almost to Alabama. About 55 minute drive from beach.

Barrier Islands are Diffent. And if I may Beachsio2, our Emerald Coast barrier islands are also unique and different from say Atlantic barrier islands. Our area barrier islands developed during the Quaternary period unlike say St. Simons Island which developed during the Pleistocene period. They developed at different times and in different ways as a function of sea-level position and water energy. Different age different energy. However, the various peninsulas behind the long-thin barrier island are considered Pleistocene.


Rich and Long History. In addition to this unique geography, geology, ecosystem, we also have a unique and authentic history. When Cabeza de Vaca was by here in 1528 he noted native peoples on our shore. So guess the beach has been public for a long recorded time.

Special. With all this unique history and environment, this complicated issue may require that Walton County will need extra attention as all this gets hashed out in the courts.

BMBV, are you seeing a lot of non-owners on the "private" beaches in BMB this spring break?