Policy on Personal Beach Chairs vs Vendor

M1 you stated; "Of course, all beach in SC, except on private islands, is public." That would mean all private property landward of the MHWL. Which is wrong. Then you state from the seaoats out is public. Which is wrong. Prove your statement of fact that all beaches in SC is public.

M1 stated you moved to SC because the beaches are public and FL is not. There is no difference for properties titled to the MHWL in FL or SC.

I didn't say anything about sharing sand or not. Or call anyone a SOB or ***.

Bob Wells, what did I spout that was different than that? Might want to read it again.

The point is ignorance of the facts is what biases the discussion. Discuss facts and not opinions and maybe you will have a better understanding of private property rights and why owners will defend them - just like you would if someone wanted to take your rights.

>What is wrong with the over 6 miles of Walton public beaches (some you can drive on!) with over 5,000 acres of public parks with parking, restrooms, and camping that you want to take legally recognized property rights FL owners have today

But you haven't backed anything up or disproved M1A1 assertion.

But you haven't backed anything up or disproved M1A1 assertion.

I didn't make the statement of fact regarding SC property rights. M1 did. He and you, since you appear to believe him, have the burden of proof. Look it up you may learn something. It's not hard to determine. Facts, not opinions please.

Lucas - as usual a minority spoil it for the whole lot (on both sides) ...

NSFW - Mr. Vizcaya... (Language)

This video: OH MY WORD!

According to that Facebook page the man brandishing a stick (?) is a Bill Hackmeyer, real estate guy from Memphis, now retired in Dune Allen. He may need to watch his coronary health; lot of anger coursing through those veins. At the end of the day, I cannot understand how anyone who bought beachfront property truly believed, during their due diligence and up to the closing, despite what any broker/developer may have relayed, that they would be able to or would have the right to control the beach "out front" for their exclusive use with complete disregard of the public's right to use it for recreation and rest. Am I wrong? I have to assume that the majority of the "private beach" proponents blame their position on bad beach goer behavior. Otherwise their stance would have to be based on not wanting anyone on "their" beach so as not to "spoil" their view? Do people say that out loud? The county should enforce its existing laws against bad behavior by beach goers and not let those folks ruin it for the rest of us. We are visiting Seagrove in a few weeks. We are bringing our own chairs/umbrella. I hope we don't encounter anybody like this guy

I'm sure your BCC solved all problems today at 3:00pm

Exactly.

And he misses the point anyway. It's all about greedy people who don't want anyone on "their" beach. Damn, what has SoWal become.

m1a1mg,


It is you who misses the point. There are competing points of view. One side, those you term “greedy”, have deeded ownership of their private beach property to either the ECL or the MHWL, ownership which they legally acquired by purchase under the laws of this state and nation. There is no law governing this property which provides the public the right to trespass on this private land.

The folks who do own that land, just as you in your situation, quite legally have every right under the Constitutions and laws of the United States and Florida to enjoy their homes and land, be it beach or other, free of trespassers. And there are laws defining trespass, be it your property or mine. It is entirely possible that some, if not in fact many, of those beachfront owners think it is you and those asserting there to be a communal right not recognized by existing law as the greedy ones.

You want something you have not purchased, on which you pay no taxes or insurance, and for which you bear no burden for maintenance or liability, among others. You think you should be able to take it because you want it, you think everyone should accept your supposedly superior moral position, and you propose to do so without following the laws governing such takings.

Were you subjected to the threat of theft of your land and your rights under the law in similar fashion, I suspect you’d be inclined to object, too. It all depends on whose ox is being gored, after all, doesn’t it?

Or does it? As a beachfront owner, I’d object just as vigorously were your rights threatened as mine have been. You have every right to equal protection under the law, and so do I and every other citizen, beachfront or not. In our present dystopia, that’s unfortunately not how the system works, but in my view, that dystopia makes it even more incumbent on each of us to act to protect everyone from the evil that inheres in the power of government as it increasingly accrues power and rights that properly belong to us as citizens.

If you’re capable of introspection, I recommend a large dose multiple times a day.

This can be defused SO easily..home owner MUST be able to show you a current (Yearly)property Survey.. If he has it and you are in his sand thank him and move..If he doesn't or can't or will not then you are in the right to sit where ever...this is the law....

I'm sure your BCC solved all problems today at 3:00pm

Probably created a few more...

Exactly.

And he misses the point anyway. It's all about greedy people who don't want anyone on "their" beach. Damn, what has SoWal become.

m1a1mg,


It is you who misses the point. There are competing points of view. One side, those you term “greedy”, have deeded ownership of their private beach property to either the ECL or the MHWL, ownership which they legally acquired by purchase under the laws of this state and nation. There is no law governing this property which provides the public the right to trespass on this private land.

The folks who do own that land, just as you in your situation, quite legally have every right under the Constitutions and laws of the United States and Florida to enjoy their homes and land, be it beach or other, free of trespassers. And there are laws defining trespass, be it your property or mine. It is entirely possible that some, if not in fact many, of those beachfront owners think it is you and those asserting there to be a communal right not recognized by existing law as the greedy ones.

You want something you have not purchased, on which you pay no taxes or insurance, and for which you bear no burden for maintenance or liability, among others. You think you should be able to take it because you want it, you think everyone should accept your supposedly superior moral position, and you propose to do so without following the laws governing such takings.

Were you subjected to the threat of theft of your land and your rights under the law in similar fashion, I suspect you’d be inclined to object, too. It all depends on whose ox is being gored, after all, doesn’t it?

Or does it? As a beachfront owner, I’d object just as vigorously were your rights threatened as mine have been. You have every right to equal protection under the law, and so do I and every other citizen, beachfront or not. In our present dystopia, that’s unfortunately not how the system works, but in my view, that dystopia makes it even more incumbent on each of us to act to protect everyone from the evil that inheres in the power of government as it increasingly accrues power and rights that properly belong to us as citizens.

If you’re capable of introspection, I recommend a large dose multiple times a day.

Your greed disgusts me. I hope you are happy enjoying your piece of paradise and keeping others from it.

I also love Charleston. Have family in Mt. Pleasant & Hollywood. The food is amazing, but the beaches are horrible. Isle of Palms has dark water and dark sand. It gets so hot in Charleston during the summer that you literally can't go out. We thought about selling our Grayton property and buy in Charleston, but after spending some time there we just couldn't part with the beautiful beaches and gulf of mexico. Also, doesn't hurt to be so close to NOLA!

I tracked weather this summer with a friend in SRB using daily "feels like" temps. SRB is almost always 2-4 degrees warmer. I'll agree that it feels hotter in Charleston though. Maybe it's having more built up areas.

We'll buy a condo in SRB in 2-3 years. Just other priorities right now.

Lucas - as usual a minority spoil it for the whole lot (on both sides) ...

NSFW - Mr. Vizcaya... (Language)

One of the multiple criteria to claim custom on private property is to be "free from dispute". I guess Vizcaya is immune to a claim of custom now!

One of the multiple criteria to claim custom on private property is to be "free from dispute". I guess Vizcaya is immune to a claim of custom now!

So you approve.

So you approve.

Mike, you must not have read the post from yesterday 9/6/2016 1:12PM.
Like prescriptive easements property owners have an incentive to dispute use of private property to invalidate custom claims. I didn't make the law.
I think it unreasonable for any non-title holder to claim use or ownership of private property by adverse possession.

Mike, you must not have read the post from yesterday 9/6/2016 1:12PM.
Like prescriptive easements property owners have an incentive to dispute use of private property to invalidate custom claims. I didn't make the law.
I think it unreasonable for any non-title holder to claim use or ownership of private property by adverse possession.

You sound like a lawyer. Do you approve of the guy in the video?

You sound like a lawyer. Do you approve of the guy in the video?

Nope not a lawyer. Just an informed supporter of the Constitution and property rights.
Unsure which "guy" you are referring to. But, we don't know what preceded the video so do you know all the facts? I stated how I thought both parties should have handled the owners request in the previous post.

Mike, do yo approve of the uninvited persons on private property and the way they handle it once the video started?

There are over 6 miles of Walton public beaches and over 5,000 acres of parks with parking, restrooms, and camping. Why could these persons not go there and respect the owner’s property rights?

There are over 6 miles of Walton public beaches and over 5,000 acres of parks with parking, restrooms, and camping. Why could these persons not go there and respect the owner’s property rights?

Like many, I am not a beachfront property owner. We use the closest public access. In the peak season, things can get very crowded, especially with all the unoccupied vendor setups. So, for years, folks have set up to the sides of the public accesses where there is some free space. It's not been a problem until recently.

Nope not a lawyer. Just an informed supporter of the Constitution and property rights.
Unsure which "guy" you are referring to. But, we don't know what preceded the video so do you know all the facts? I stated how I thought both parties should have handled the owners request in the previous post.

Mike, do yo approve of the uninvited persons on private property and the way they handle it once the video started?

There are over 6 miles of Walton public beaches and over 5,000 acres of parks with parking, restrooms, and camping. Why could these persons not go there and respect the owner’s property rights?

lol at informed supporter.
The guy with the stick threatening people on the beach.
All bets are off when violence is threatened/
Most people who visit here don't know where the imaginary fences are.

But it's mine, mine, mine. Wah!!!!!!!!

m1a1mg - Actually referring to in town Charleston, not the beaches. For some reason it seems so much more humid there in the summer with no breezes. July/August. But I'll take those oysters at Pearlz on East Bay St. over Appalachicola oysters any day of the week. Love that place!

The guy in the video should not have taken matters into his own hands. He simply should have called the police and let them handle the situation! Seems like he was just lookin for a confrontation!

lol at informed supporter.
The guy with the stick threatening people on the beach.
Most people who visit here don't know where the imaginary fences are.

Mike, you lol but I don't think I need to address who is the more "informed supporter of the Constitution and property rights."

It is interesting how two people can view the same images and see two different outcomes. Again, I posted how I thought both parties should could have handled it differently in a previous post. Apparently you didn't read it. Did you see the older man threaten violence or brandish the 3 foot half-inch(?) stick and physically or verbally threaten anyone with the stick? I didn't. It wasn't a baseball bat, it was a stick. The uninvited people (on posted private property) started cussing the older man. I did see the younger guy get up from sitting on the sand and try to physically intimidate the older man, enough the older man felt threatened that the younger man might hit the older man, and the older man said as much. So who do you think was threatening physical violence?

You didn’t answer the question; “Mike, do you approve of the uninvited persons on private property and the way they handle it once the video started?”

“imaginary fences?” Walton marks public beaches were beach vendors can setup chairs and umbrellas. Why can’t Walton mark where the miles of public beaches are? Then by default unmarked beaches are private property that the public should respect the legally recognized property rights of the upland owner. Just like your property. The Walton Sheriff operating procedure require property bounties be marked to enforce recognized property rights. The state of Florida has statues how to post private property boundaries. Instead of the county commissioners choosing to work with property owners, educate the public where public beaches are, and to respect private property rights; the county has chosen to violate property owners rights by enacting an ordinance, against the US Constitution and Florida statues, to prohibit posting property as private and marking property boundaries. Inciting this we vs them, the majority rules, we deserve it we should have it; even if it’s yours, mentality. So now the courts will decide and the tax payer will pay millions(?).

The public can walk and use all 26 miles of Walton beach foreshore seaward MHWL property boundaries. I think most littoral property owner do not wish to post signs or mark their property boundaries but they do expect the public to respect their legally recognized property rights that they have today. But if it's a choice between enforcing their property rights in accordance to FL statutes or not enforcing their legally recognized property rights and having the public claim possession of property rights that is titled and deeded to a private individual. What would you do if someone claimed use of your recognized private property?

Let’s stop with the hyperbole and name calling and let’s get informed and stick to the facts.

Marking beaches. What a croc!

Such a shame SoWal beaches were sold off back in the day when no one was looking. Unfortunately our courts have to waste time and tax dollars setting it right again. #customaryuse

Marking beaches. What a croc!

Such a shame SoWal beaches were sold off back in the day when no one was looking. Unfortunately our courts have to waste time and tax dollars setting it right again. #customaryuse

And what wasn't sold was given to vendors free of charge.

Such a shame SoWal beaches were sold off back in the day when no one was looking.

Maybe. But I'd like a further explanation of this "sell off"?

What is a REAL shame...
Is county & TDC leadership not aquiring beachfront and adjoining parking when they had the opportunity.
Too busy overpromoting the place to secure what it is your promoting.
But hey...TDC is sitting on 60 million in reserves, so all is good.

Marking beaches. What a croc!

Such a shame SoWal beaches were sold off back in the day when no one was looking. Unfortunately our courts have to waste time and tax dollars setting it right again. customary-use

Mike, you obviously don't read the posts. "Walton [already] marks public beaches [boundaries] were beach vendors can setup chairs and umbrellas."

We live in the now not yesterday and littoral MHWL property owners have all the property rights you have plus some others. I agree, but for different reasons, that the courts have to waste time and tax payers money trying to take recognized private property rights littoral owners have today on a narrow legal doctrine that has little chance of prevailing. But it's not the commissioners money, it's tax payer money, and they can just tax more. Plus they are politicians and they pander to the masses for votes regardless of the Constitutionality of their actions.

Do you know what the criteria is to claim common-law custom? I named one of them in a previous post.

But none of my comments have been about custom. I pointed out M1A1 error about SC property rights; which he still hasn't validated his statement with any facts, your comments about the trespass video and my question; "There are over 6 miles of Walton public beaches and over 5,000 acres of parks with parking, restrooms, and camping. Why could these persons not go there and respect the owner’s property rights?" and your comment that the public does not know where legal property boundaries are.

You still haven't answered the question; "There are over 6 miles of Walton public beaches and over 5,000 acres of parks with parking, restrooms, and camping. Why could these persons not go there [to the public beach park at Ed Wallin] and respect the owner’s property rights?"

And you still didn’t answer the question; “Mike, do you approve of the uninvited persons on private property and the way they handle it once the video started?” Can you explain your reasons too?

You still haven't answered the question; "There are over 6 miles of Walton public beaches and over 5,000 acres of parks with parking, restrooms, and camping. Why could these persons not go there [to the public beach park at Ed Wallin] and respect the owner’s property rights?" And you still didn’t answer the question; “Mike, do you approve of the uninvited persons on private property and the way they handle it once the video started?” Can you explain your reasons too?

I'm not Mike, but I'll gladly take a shot. I'm not much of an activist, but I did like to walk down the beaches of SoWal daily. Sometimes all the way from BMB to Seaside.

You've obviously never been to Ed Walline. Please refer to the earlier pictures that show beach access points covered with non-rented chairs at 0630.

On those daily jaunts down the beach I would encounter all types of beach "protectors", like the jerk in the video. What should he have done? Call the WCSO instead of confronting the people. See, that whole MHWL has been up for debate for years. Probably way before some idiot decided to allow you to buy something that most states think should be public property. The idiot landowner in the video instigates the argument, calls the the woman multiple names, and become belligerent before the trespassers. It's typical of the beach protectors. Outsiders with zero respect for people who have lived at, or visited, those beaches for decades before you ever saw the place. I still remember my first visit in 1973. It didn't look anything like it does today. And it will only get worse as more people like you want to control the beach.

The people on the Isle of Palms not only get unfettered access to the beach, but are allowed to park in the front yards of the multi-million dollar houses along the beach front. You see, in 1996, SC decided they had enough of people destroying the beach and began to take steps to control growth along the water. As long as you are 4 feet off the road, you can park in people's front yards. Imagine that happening in SoWal. You can walk the beach without hundreds of chairs lined up to block your way. You can walk in the sand without fear of an armed guard coming out to threaten you away, even though you are in 6" of water. (As a side note, I was one told I had to get out of the water at Seaside by some rent a cop. I did not and suggested they call the WCSO. WCSO never showed up.)

I suppose it's going to take a CAT 5 enema to clean all the greedy people out and return it to what it once was.

Mike, you obviously don't read the posts. "Walton [already] marks public beaches [boundaries] were beach vendors can setup chairs and umbrellas."

We live in the now not yesterday and littoral MHWL property owners have all the property rights you have plus some others. I agree, but for different reasons, that the courts have to waste time and tax payers money trying to take recognized private property rights littoral owners have today on a narrow legal doctrine that has little chance of prevailing. But it's not the commissioners money, it's tax payer money, and they can just tax more. Plus they are politicians and they pander to the masses for votes regardless of the Constitutionality of their actions.

Do you know what the criteria is to claim common-law custom? I named one of them in a previous post.

But none of my comments have been about custom. I pointed out M1A1 error about SC property rights; which he still hasn't validated his statement with any facts, your comments about the trespass video and my question; "There are over 6 miles of Walton public beaches and over 5,000 acres of parks with parking, restrooms, and camping. Why could these persons not go there and respect the owner’s property rights?" and your comment that the public does not know where legal property boundaries are.

You still haven't answered the question; "There are over 6 miles of Walton public beaches and over 5,000 acres of parks with parking, restrooms, and camping. Why could these persons not go there [to the public beach park at Ed Wallin] and respect the owner’s property rights?"

And you still didn’t answer the question; “Mike, do you approve of the uninvited persons on private property and the way they handle it once the video started?” Can you explain your reasons too?

Lucas: If I were to lay a towel and put an umbrella and chair on the beach in front of your house, or any house, to read my book and enjoy the beauty, as I have since 1975, would you want me to move?