We are back at Sowal and see that the beach chair rentals are now $365 for 6 days. When we first started visiting Sowal there weren't very many vendors and now the beaches are completely dominated by the . Further, the beaches are all divided up in small portions this year with ropes and signs stating where you can sit and can't sit depending on where you are staying.
Anyway, if we wake up early and go down to the beach to set up first, then walk the beach with the kids, can these vendors move my things? I just don't want to be behind 3 rows of chairs because I can't see my children in the water.
Thanks so much!
Replies
300Beach Lover
“You've obviously never been to Ed Walline.”[If I’ve never been to Ed Walline how would I know it’s next to the location of the video? I know what it’s like. Why should private property owners have to shoulder the burden of the public demand and give up rights that they earned and pay taxes on?] Please refer to the earlier pictures that show beach access points covered with non-rented chairs at 0630. [You have no idea what the occupancy of Ed Walline was that day. If people want space they can’t take it from owners that have paid for it.]
On those daily jaunts down the beach I would encounter all types of beach "protectors" [of constitutional property rights], like the jerk in the video. What should he [he who? the owner or uninvited persons?] have done? Call the WCSO instead of confronting the people. [Yes the owner should have call the WCSO like I posted before or the people should have respected his property rights and move to the nearby public beach.] See, that whole MHWL has been up for debate for years. [There is NO legal debate. In the state of FL the littoral boundaries have ALWAYS been and will most likely always be the MHWL.] Probably way before some idiot decided to allow you to buy something [I never said I own littoral property. I have just address property rights] that most states think should be public property. [We are in FL. Doesn’t matter what other states think.] The idiot landowner in the video instigates the argument, calls the woman multiple names, and become belligerent before the trespassers. [Wrong again. Might want to watch it again. The woman first calls the older man an a*****e.] It's typical of the beach protectors. [It’s more typical of the uninformed persons to argue about property rights that they have no idea what they are talking about and violate legally recognized property rights. Like in the video.] Outsiders with zero respect for people who have lived at, or visited, those beaches for decades before you ever saw the place. [Wrong again. I and many property owners I know have the utmost respect for those that respect property rights owners have today. You don’t know where I‘m from or how long our family has been here; but probably longer than you. Many littoral owners like the littoral owners that are protecting their rights against Walton commissioners in court today have been here longer than you.] I still remember my first visit in 1973 [I’ve seen photos of the beaches before 30A; and they were private then too]. It didn't look anything like it does today. And it will only get worse as more people like you want to control [their legal private property] the beach. [Agree demand for the beach exceeds supply but taking property rights owners have today, paid for and pay taxes on won’t make it better. That’s unconstitutional and a slippery slope eroding personal rights.]
The people on the Isle of Palms not only get unfettered access to the beach [by the grace of the MHWL property owners(?) but what if owners feel like their property rights are being threatened and refused? What would stop the owners? Nothing legally], but are allowed to park in the front yards of the multi-million dollar houses along the beach front [by law? I doubt it. I challenge you to provide the legal basis for your statement. If not it’s just your opinion. Regardless it’s irrelevant in FL]. You see, in 1996, SC decided they had enough of people destroying the beach and began to take steps to control growth along the water. As long as you are 4 feet off the road, you can park in people's front yards [You sure it’s not the public right of way. Sorry, the Government can’t make property owners give their property to others. That’s called a taking.] Imagine that happening in SoWal [it can’t, it’s unconstitutional]. You can walk the beach without hundreds of chairs lined up to block your way. [Sounds like the SC beach sand is not as nice as ours. You stated all SC beaches from the vegetation line is legally public beach. Is it or isn’t it? What facts do you have?]. You can walk in the sand without fear of an armed guard coming out to threaten you away [I have no fear of armed guards and I bet most people don't. Sounds like hyperbole.], even though you are in 6" of water. (As a side note, I was one told I had to get out of the water at Seaside by some rent a cop. I did not and suggested they call the WCSO. WCSO never showed up.)
I suppose it's going to take a CAT 5 enema to clean all the greedy people out and return it to what it once was. [Until then why wouldn’t you respect property rights owners have today and use the 6+ miles of public beaches and 5000 acres of parks?]
On those daily jaunts down the beach I would encounter all types of beach "protectors" [of constitutional property rights], like the jerk in the video. What should he [he who? the owner or uninvited persons?] have done? Call the WCSO instead of confronting the people. [Yes the owner should have call the WCSO like I posted before or the people should have respected his property rights and move to the nearby public beach.] See, that whole MHWL has been up for debate for years. [There is NO legal debate. In the state of FL the littoral boundaries have ALWAYS been and will most likely always be the MHWL.] Probably way before some idiot decided to allow you to buy something [I never said I own littoral property. I have just address property rights] that most states think should be public property. [We are in FL. Doesn’t matter what other states think.] The idiot landowner in the video instigates the argument, calls the woman multiple names, and become belligerent before the trespassers. [Wrong again. Might want to watch it again. The woman first calls the older man an a*****e.] It's typical of the beach protectors. [It’s more typical of the uninformed persons to argue about property rights that they have no idea what they are talking about and violate legally recognized property rights. Like in the video.] Outsiders with zero respect for people who have lived at, or visited, those beaches for decades before you ever saw the place. [Wrong again. I and many property owners I know have the utmost respect for those that respect property rights owners have today. You don’t know where I‘m from or how long our family has been here; but probably longer than you. Many littoral owners like the littoral owners that are protecting their rights against Walton commissioners in court today have been here longer than you.] I still remember my first visit in 1973 [I’ve seen photos of the beaches before 30A; and they were private then too]. It didn't look anything like it does today. And it will only get worse as more people like you want to control [their legal private property] the beach. [Agree demand for the beach exceeds supply but taking property rights owners have today, paid for and pay taxes on won’t make it better. That’s unconstitutional and a slippery slope eroding personal rights.]
The people on the Isle of Palms not only get unfettered access to the beach [by the grace of the MHWL property owners(?) but what if owners feel like their property rights are being threatened and refused? What would stop the owners? Nothing legally], but are allowed to park in the front yards of the multi-million dollar houses along the beach front [by law? I doubt it. I challenge you to provide the legal basis for your statement. If not it’s just your opinion. Regardless it’s irrelevant in FL]. You see, in 1996, SC decided they had enough of people destroying the beach and began to take steps to control growth along the water. As long as you are 4 feet off the road, you can park in people's front yards [You sure it’s not the public right of way. Sorry, the Government can’t make property owners give their property to others. That’s called a taking.] Imagine that happening in SoWal [it can’t, it’s unconstitutional]. You can walk the beach without hundreds of chairs lined up to block your way. [Sounds like the SC beach sand is not as nice as ours. You stated all SC beaches from the vegetation line is legally public beach. Is it or isn’t it? What facts do you have?]. You can walk in the sand without fear of an armed guard coming out to threaten you away [I have no fear of armed guards and I bet most people don't. Sounds like hyperbole.], even though you are in 6" of water. (As a side note, I was one told I had to get out of the water at Seaside by some rent a cop. I did not and suggested they call the WCSO. WCSO never showed up.)
I suppose it's going to take a CAT 5 enema to clean all the greedy people out and return it to what it once was. [Until then why wouldn’t you respect property rights owners have today and use the 6+ miles of public beaches and 5000 acres of parks?]
Beach Lover
Lucas: If I were to lay a towel and put an umbrella and chair on the beach in front of your house, or any house, to read my book and enjoy the beauty, as I have since 1975, would you want me to move?
That is an individual property owners right and choice. It does matter what I would do. MRBS, if you were on private property would you deny a private property owner their personal spot on their own property they paid for and pay taxes on and have used and enjoyed continuously since 1975? Would you deny a private property owner next to a 10 foot public access the right for their family to use and enjoy their own property for their family and friends?
Beach Fanatic
Sorry, I won't waste any more time with Lucas. You are just another person in favor of selling paradise. Damn shame.
Beach Lover
That is an individual property owners right and choice. It does matter what I would do. MRBS, if you were on private property would you deny a private property owner their personal spot on their own property they paid for and pay taxes on and have used and enjoyed continuously since 1975? Would you deny a private property owner next to a 10 foot public access the right for their family to use and enjoy their own property for their family and friends?
I would not deny a beach front homeowner the right to use the beach in front, or as some say, out back, of their house. But to the exclusion of all others to use that beach, yes - the right to exclude others who have peaceably used that sand for decades is not among the bundle of rights conveyed when one buys beachfront property, as opposed to other types. Having said that if there was no room for said beachfront homeowners' towel, umbrella and volleyball court on the beach, then I would certainly move. Are you saying that is the case all over? every square foot is "ate up" by "trespassers"?
Your argument regarding thousands of acres of publicly available state park etc., ignores the fact that only a few acres of that are beach. I get the complaints regarding bad beach goer behavior and there should be and can be an effective mechanism to address that without resorting to scrooging the beach. But I'm afraid this falls on deaf ears.
Beach Lover
That is an individual property owners right and choice. It does matter what I would do. MRBS, if you were on private property would you deny a private property owner their personal spot on their own property they paid for and pay taxes on and have used and enjoyed continuously since 1975? Would you deny a private property owner next to a 10 foot public access the right for their family to use and enjoy their own property for their family and friends?Should have said; It does [not] matter what I would do.
Beach Lover
Sorry, I won't waste any more time with Lucas. You are just another person in favor of selling paradise. Damn shame.Good I was tiring of pointing out your incorrect or unsubstantiated statements of fact.
Beach Lover
I would not deny a beach front homeowner the right to use the beach in front, or as some say, out back, of their house. But to the exclusion of all others to use that beach, yes - the right to exclude others who have peaceably used that sand for decades is not among the bundle of rights conveyed when one buys beachfront property, as opposed to other types. Having said that if there was no room for said beachfront homeowners' towel, umbrella and volleyball court on the beach, then I would certainly move. Are you saying that is the case all over? every square foot is "ate up" by "trespassers"?
Your argument regarding thousands of acres of publicly available state park etc., ignores the fact that only a few acres of that are beach. I get the complaints regarding bad beach goer behavior and there should be and can be an effective mechanism to address that without resorting to scrooging the beach. But I'm afraid this falls on deaf ears.
MRBS, " the right to exclude others who have peaceably used that sand for decades is not among the bundle of rights conveyed when one buys beachfront property, as opposed to other types." That is where you are wrong. Since 1776 and FL statehood Constitutional property rights (right of possession, the right of control, the right of exclusion, the right of enjoyment and the right of disposition, among others) including all littoral, sometimes referred to as riparian rights, where conveyed to property owners and the seaward boundary was defined as the MHWL. That is a fact. Those are legal property rights FL property owners have had and have today. They are legal property rights that law enforcement recognizes and the US Corps of Engineers recognizes (USACE). When Walton wanted to fortify the beaches with sand that was not as "good" as the original sand, USACE could not just pump sand on private property; they needed an easement and owners could exclude them from their property.
Because you and the majority don't like it does not change that fact. There is a narrow legal doctrine of common-law custom that before 1776 English common-law recognized and is the bases for American common-law. There are multiple criteria a court must consider. All must be valid. Any one can invalidate a custom claim and the custom claim is limited to that property; not the whole county or state of FL. There are about 1,000 littoral property owners in Walton. The likelihood that a 1,000 custom claims will succeed in court is slim and I think the cost to Walton tax payers is in the multi-millions.
Maybe working with and respecting property rights owners have today, educating the public about private property rights and where public beaches are, managing or eliminating chair vending from public beaches (which was the original thread of the comments) is a better way than demanding what is not yours to take, making it an issue of you vs them, and name calling (not you but others).
Beach Fanatic
Sorry, I won't waste any more time with Lucas. You are just another person in favor of selling paradise. Damn shame.I'm not sure what this means? It's not the property owners fault the county / TDC did not secure more beachfront for residents / tourists.
There has been beachfront property owners in this county since most (probably all) of us have been alive, or at least since most have lived / visited here.
The problems began with over promotion by the TDC and lack of leadership at the county.
The county had PLENTY of opportunity to purchase beachfront decades ago when it was reasonably priced. Then had another opportunity a few years ago when the market tanked.
The county also has (still) the opportunity to write ordaninces that limit beach activities. Including vendors. And an ordanince that keeps Bubba and his 13 cousins from setting up what looks like a tent city refugee camp, including everything that will fit inside or on top of the Suburban, under and around the "tent homestead".
While I agree that beachfront owners should be a bit more tolerant. I submit, Many of those on the beach are slobs who leave garbage and abuse their welcome.
Beach Fanatic
The whole mess comes down to this MHWL, which no one is able to show. will personally stand where I wish until you can prove I'm on the wrong side of the MHWL.
True that people have always owned land with sand. But the problem magnifies each year as exponentially greedy people move in. Seaside is the prime example. They'll even harass you standing in the water.
I'm not sure what this means? It's not the property owners fault the county / TDC did not secure more beachfront for residents / tourists.
There has been beachfront property owners in this county since most (probably all) of us have been alive, or at least since most have lived / visited here.
The problems began with over promotion by the TDC and lack of leadership at the county.
The county had PLENTY of opportunity to purchase beachfront decades ago when it was reasonably priced. Then had another opportunity a few years ago when the market tanked.
The county also has (still) the opportunity to write ordaninces that limit beach activities. Including vendors. And an ordanince that keeps Bubba and his 13 cousins from setting up what looks like a tent city refugee camp, including everything that will fit inside or on top of the Suburban, under and around the "tent homestead".
While I agree that beachfront owners should be a bit more tolerant. I submit, Many of those on the beach are slobs who leave garbage and abuse their welcome.
True that people have always owned land with sand. But the problem magnifies each year as exponentially greedy people move in. Seaside is the prime example. They'll even harass you standing in the water.
Beach Fanatic
True that people have always owned land with sand.You haven't addressed my question:
What do you mean "another in favor of selling paradise"
Beach Fanatic
Selling beachfront property to include the sand. Most states do not allow this.
SoWal just keeps selling and building. It's going to come to roost at some time.
SoWal just keeps selling and building. It's going to come to roost at some time.
Beach Fanatic
Selling beachfront property to include the sand. Most states do not allow this.So? You don't believe in private property ownership? And the right to sell?
SoWal just keeps selling and building. It's going to come to roost at some time.
Do you realize how much property in South Walton is public owned?
Beach Fanatic
Don't try to twist my words. I fully support private land ownership. But just like rivers and streams are public land, so too should be beaches.
Beach Fanatic
But just like rivers and streams are public land, so too should be beaches.Not wholy correct.
And you are free to your own opinion. But not your own facts.
Beach Fanatic
Fine. Facts are interpreted by many. It's why we have state and federal courts that interpret law.
Go to the beach in Seaside. Have the rent-a-cops come and ask you to leave. Tell them you are within the limits of the MHWL. Then sit back and enjoy while everyone tries to determine the spot.
Go to the beach in Seaside. Have the rent-a-cops come and ask you to leave. Tell them you are within the limits of the MHWL. Then sit back and enjoy while everyone tries to determine the spot.
Beach Fanatic
Fine. Facts are interpreted by many. It's why we have state and federal courts that interpret law.I'm wise enough not to go to the beach at Seaside during season. We have spent time there during off season with zero issues.
Go to the beach in Seaside. Have the rent-a-cops come and ask you to leave. Tell them you are within the limits of the MHWL. Then sit back and enjoy while everyone tries to determine the spot.
Beach Fanatic
I'm wise enough not to go to the beach at Seaside during season. We have spent time there during off season with zero issues.
You missed the point. By a mile.
Beach Lover
Selling beachfront property to include the sand. Most states do not allow this.
M1, most states do not allow selling beachfront property, property at lest to the MHWL? Is most, 26 of 50 states?
Can you name the American states that "do not allow this"?
Beach Fanatic
M1, most states do not allow selling beachfront property, property at lest to the MHWL? Is most, 26 of 50 states?
Can you name the American states that "do not allow this"?
For you? Nope. You talk down to people and act as if people must answer to you. Maybe in your world people must answer to you, I don't. Good day sir.
Beach Lover
For you? Nope. You talk down to people and act as if people must answer to you. Maybe in your world people must answer to you, I don't. Good day sir.
M1, you won't or can't answer the question? I ask the question not to "talk down" to anyone but to know if you have any credibility about what you are talking about. You nor anyone has to answer to me. I know the answer. It's less than five. Not the majority (26?) of states. You'll have to do the homework; like I did to know which ones.
Beach Fanatic
M1, you won't or can't answer the question? I ask the question not to "talk down" to anyone but to know if you have any credibility about what you are talking about. You nor anyone has to answer to me. I know the answer. It's less than five. Not the majority (26?) of states. You'll have to do the homework; like I did to know which ones.
OK, this is the last damn time I respond to you. You told me I was wrong about SC. But you couldn't, or wouldn't, show how I was wrong.
Now you want to talk about MHWL and beachfront. It's a metric you are choosing. I'm talking about sand. SC, for one, uses an erosion formula since 1996 when the state law was changed.
Good bye Lucas.
Beach Lover
OK, this is the last damn time I respond to you. You told me I was wrong about SC. But you couldn't, or wouldn't, show how I was wrong.
I could but thought you would know by your statements of fact. I could be wrong about SC laws.
M1 here are the statements you made;
"Of course, all beach in SC, except on private islands, is public."
"In SC, from the sea oats out is public."
"Selling beachfront property to include the sand. Most states do not allow this."
"Now you want to talk about MHWL and beachfront. It's a metric you are choosing."
Just so you and Mike know: Encyclopedia of Coastal Science. In Alabama, Alaska, California, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Maryland, Mississippi, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Carolina, and Washington, and parts of Texas transferred under common law land grants, the line between the public trust land and any privately owned littoral land is the mean high tide or mean high water line, typically calculated as the land reached by water at the average of all the twice daily high tides that occur over an 18.6 year lunar cycle.
Lookup South Carolina Code of Laws Coastal Tidelands and Wetlands SECTION 48-39.
Now you want to talk about MHWL and beachfront. It's a metric you are choosing. I'm talking about sand. SC, for one, uses an erosion formula since 1996 when the state law was changed.
The MHWL is not some "metric" I pulled out of the air. It's the law of "most" coastal states that define the boundary between private and public littoral property. The MHWL is an elevation from a standard vertical geodetic datum plane. Not where the the sand and water intersect. So the MHWL property boundary could be underwater if the tides are greater than normal (the mean).
Beach Lover
Exactly.Sowal has become county of complainers.
And he misses the point anyway. It's all about greedy people who don't want anyone on "their" beach. Damn, what has SoWal become.
Beach Lover
Like many, I am not a beachfront property owner. We use the closest public access. In the peak season, things can get very crowded, especially with all the unoccupied vendor setups. So, for years, folks have set up to the sides of the public accesses where there is some free space. It's not been a problem until recently.Even if the vendors setups are unoccupied it sometimes they're only taking up 50% of County Beach. I just don't quite understand everybody period I go to the beach all the time and I never have a problem getting a good spot not even on 4th of July. And yes I am not a beachfront property owner so I have to use a public access.
Beach Lover
This video: OH MY WORD!You know what's funny is they don't show what is said before this video is turned on. And if you watched they cussed at him first. That does not excuse his actions. However I am very familiar with the situation out there from following it on social media.A lot of people are going out there antagonizing the guy at this point. From what I am told this has been going on out there for years and people go out there all the time just to mess with the guy. You know if the guy pays property taxes to the wet sand then it is his property. If everybody wants to claim it customary use then he needs to be paid back property taxes and his proerty taxes need to be lowered. If not stay down close to the wet sand. He does not own that part.
According to that Facebook page the man brandishing a stick (?) is a Bill Hackmeyer, real estate guy from Memphis, now retired in Dune Allen. He may need to watch his coronary health; lot of anger coursing through those veins. At the end of the day, I cannot understand how anyone who bought beachfront property truly believed, during their due diligence and up to the closing, despite what any broker/developer may have relayed, that they would be able to or would have the right to control the beach "out front" for their exclusive use with complete disregard of the public's right to use it for recreation and rest. Am I wrong? I have to assume that the majority of the "private beach" proponents blame their position on bad beach goer behavior. Otherwise their stance would have to be based on not wanting anyone on "their" beach so as not to "spoil" their view? Do people say that out loud? The county should enforce its existing laws against bad behavior by beach goers and not let those folks ruin it for the rest of us. We are visiting Seagrove in a few weeks. We are bringing our own chairs/umbrella. I hope we don't encounter anybody like this guy
Checking your forum account
Please wait while we verify your forum account.