The US War - Five Years On

[Mango]

Quickly, because I'm about to head out of town. First, we already do all that. As for creating jobs, the unemployment rate is too low as it is, which will lead to inflation, even Keynes agrees with that. We are due for a recession to correct it. Friedman's essay wasn't written to saw why we should still be there, it was written as an analysis of what has happened. It's not in his intent to tell us why we should be there, so you might as well be complaining that Jim Rome didn't mention why we should be there on his show today.

I agree on the planning, so does everyone else who can fog a mirror. It's not anywhere easy, and hindsight is 50/50, but I'll be the first to admit that the occupation plan sucked. So will Bush. As for the article, I'll read it later. I remember reading it when it came out but I'll have to look at it again. First you have to consider the source. The intelligencies hate any administration by nature. Until they can offer some examples, which is impossible thank God, I'll stand by my assessment.

It's obviously not working.

Since you feel that intel hate the administration here is a recent non-partisan survey. Its participants include people who have served as secretary of state and national security advisor, senior White House aides, top commanders in the U.S. military, seasoned intelligence officers, and distinguished academics and journalists. Eighty percent of the experts have served in the U.S. government—more than half in the executive branch, 26 percent in the military, and 18 percent in the intelligence community.

The Terrorism Index

 

[GoodWitch58]

6thGen:

I know who the writer is...what is the source/publication--where was it published is the question I asked.

 

[Uncle Timmy]

Not to be condescending, even though everyone knows I am a condescending ahole, but dont you have anything beyond anecdotes and rhetoric? If what you state is correct, and neither of us has any way of knowing, the average Bush supporter isnt very bright. The administration never claimed that. They claimed that Iraq was harboring terrorists, and that is very well documented and beyond dispute. As for blame, the Shiites blame the Sunnis, who blame the Shiites and the Kurds. There is a round robin of weapon pointing. There are not American flags on the shoulder of the ones setting off the car bombs and Iraqis know that.

It is entirely relevant. You were the one just preaching about the long term. The French felt the same way when the Allies brought the fight through their once peaceful, yet occupied villages. Ask them how they feel about it now. Many of the colonists, hell, colonies, wanted no part of breaking away from Great Britain. Tree of liberty, blood of the tyrants and patriots and stuff. Sacrifice is necessary for change of this nature.

Thats just not true. The U.S. imports about half of the oil we consume. We import the same amount of Canada that we do from all of the Middle East combined, and we import nearly as much from Mexico as we do from Canada. Yes, destabilization has global and economic consequences, but so do crazy dictators with ties to terrorists overtly threatening you with weapons of mass destruction. Dont go into the fact that we did not dig up many WMDs, everyone on the planet thought he had them, all of Congress thought that he had them, so dont tell me you knew he didnt. The fact is he did, and the weapons were moved to other countries that hate us. As with Al Qaeda, better on the run that locked and loaded.

6th Gen, maybe you should research just a bit before you post, or form an opinion for that matter.


Zogby Poll 9/05/2006

Saddam Link to 9/11 Disputed
Half of American voters (50%) say there is no link between Saddam Hussein and the 9/11 terror attacks, while 46% believe there is a connection. However, just 37% of respondents in the poll agreed that Saddam was connected to the attacks and that the Iraq War was justified as retribution for his involvement, while 48% believed that there is no connection between Saddam and 9/11 and the Iraq War has diverted Americas attention from the War on Terror.
Do you agree or disagree that there was a connection between Saddam Hussein and the 9/11 terror attacks?

OVER-ALL​

​

​

DEM​

​

​

GOP​

​

​

IND​

​

​

Agree

46%​

​

32%​

​

65%​

​

39%​

​

Disagree

50%​

​

65%​

​

30%​

​

56%​

​

You are exposing a great deal of the basis for your opinions when you make such carless debating mistakes.

Now look who is being condescending.

So you believe that it is not relevant that a majority of Iraqis would prefer life under Saddam rather than under the post US invasion government based upon your refrences to British Colonialism and WWII France? Interesting. While I strongly believe in the need to study history for guidance in contemporary issues -the correct attitude is to look at every relevant case and then form an opinion based upon all the historical information. Not to just seek out those examples that agree with your pre-formed opinion.

You made need to brush up on the following historical case studies:

The British Experience in Iraq 1920s
The Colonial French Involvement in Vietnam
British Mandate, Palestine 1922

Apparently, it does matter what a majority of the population thinks about what is perceived to be a foreign occupier, in the long term.

And now we turn to Oil Imports: From The Dept. of Energy Website:

Crude Oil Imports (Top 15 Countries)
(Thousand Barrels per Day)​

​

​

Country​

​

​

Jan-07​

​

​

Dec-06​

​

​

YTD 2007​

​

​

Jan-06​

​

​

Jan - Jan 2006​

​

​

CANADA​

​

​

1,856​

​

1,829​

​

1,856​

​

1,768​

​

1,768​

​

SAUDI ARABIA​

​

​

1,559​

​

1,471​

​

1,559​

​

1,335​

​

1,335​

​

MEXICO​

​

​

1,435​

​

1,245​

​

1,435​

​

1,701​

​

1,701​

​

NIGERIA​

​

​

1,106​

​

1,010​

​

1,106​

​

1,133​

​

1,133​

​

VENEZUELA​

​

​

955​

​

1,045​

​

955​

​

1,228​

​

1,228​

​

ANGOLA​

​

​

553​

​

610​

​

553​

​

420​

​

420​

​

ALGERIA​

​

​

548​

​

421​

​

548​

​

235​

​

235​

​

IRAQ​

​

​

531​

​

419​

​

531​

​

532​

​

532​

​

ECUADOR​

​

​

269​

​

254​

​

269​

​

373​

​

373​

​

BRAZIL​

​

​

204​

​

130​

​

204​

​

61​

​

61​

​

KUWAIT​

​

​

172​

​

163​

​

172​

​

73​

​

73​

​

COLOMBIA​

​

​

137​

​

74​

​

137​

​

169​

​

169​

​

EQUATORIAL GUINEA​

​

​

136​

​

48​

​

136​

​

86​

​

86​

​

AZERBAIJAN​

​

​

86​

​

68​

​

86​

​

0​

​

0​

​

I dare you to contact an economist and suggest that the loss of 1,559 thousand barrels of oil from Saudi Arabia daily is nothing to worry about.

Well, at this point I must conclude that a majority of your 'opinions' are based more on perception reinforced by a tunnel vision approach to finding only the facts that reinforce those opinions.

And to any others reading this post, let me sum up my opinions on Bush's Iraq Policy:

While as a nation, we are quite capable of pursuing multiple national interests, ie terrorism and energy supplies, we need to understand that interests can and do collide. What may benefit one interest can undermine another.

Bush's focus on Iraq is undermining what should be our primary national interest. Energy supplies represent a far greater national interest than domestic terrorist acts. My opinion is also that we should have used a portion of that 300 billion we spent in Iraq to pursue a goal of national energy independance, so we can extricate ourselves from the mid-east one day. You want to take the wind out of the Islamis-Militantism threat to the west? Getting ourselves out of that region and no longer having to meddle in their affairs for our own interests is the best way to do it.

 

[Teresa]

all of these issues, facts and arguments are thought provoking for sure. and yes 6thgen - it is very complex and hurts my brain to think about it all. I like Mangy's suggestions regarding better use of our resources for national security, etc. and I appreciate that Uncle Timmy has first hand knowledge of life and history in the middle east, unlike most americans.

the middle east is another world with an history and culture difficult for us to truly grasp - and why should americans know that much about Iraq? we barely know our own history. we live in such an egocentric culture, we just don't know much beyond our own communities. I believe chickpea had a very valid point about travel being an important part of a person's education and understanding of other cultures - so important for a US President.

there are so many things about our own society that make me wonder why... why did someone like bush get elected? why did bush and cronies really go to war? where the hell did the religious right even come from? what happened to the old world soul and innate goodness (real knowledge of right from wrong) that our grandparents and great grandparents brought over from Europe? why is the education of our children so limited compared to children in other countries? what happened to the greatness of america?

well, I know the standard answers to these questions. but, I think it all goes far beyond and much deeper than those standard answers. I think american society and its culture has degraded to the point that we now have dumbass politicians, elections are a national sport, we love war - its the ultimate football game (we don't like it after a few years though - we aren't getting much action on TV by then, and besides its so "yesterday"), we love our material stuff - the more the better, and we don't really give a crap about the rest of the world. God bless america and the confederate flag too! you don't like it, leave! speak english or get out! what church do you go to? OJ simpson. anna nicole and terry shiavo. rude american idol shows. we've all witnessed this phenomenon for years. It's the dumbing down of america and the culture in which we live. nothing new. it sounds so cynical - and I really don't like cynics - but how can we deny this reality?

yes, I am someone very discouraged by this president and administration, so my outlook is not very positive. I did hope for the best with "W". I didn't vote for him either time, but this is my country and I hoped he would succeed in his presidency. and he may have done a decent enough job if he had not rushed into this war. the war is a tragic mistake. dumbing down doesn't apply to any one group or class of americans. it reaches out to america's elite as well - i.e. "W".

so, the above is my own personal opinion/belief as to why we are in this mess. somehow I do have hope and feel confident that we have an incredible resource of extraordinary people in america who can make a difference, and who are doing so every day.

the question is this: how can we attract extraordinary persons (men and women) to take the insane job of the Presidency, and to serve in congress and government positions? america needs to seriously up its expectations of our leaders and our country. america needs to wake up and take its role seriously as a good citizen of the world. america needs an education.

 

[Smiling JOe]

Uncle Timmy, I knew there was a reason I liked you. I, too, think we can learn much from history. In my opinion, I think the President should have more historians on staff, giving helpful history lessons, before acting. As you stated, look no further than The British Experience in Iraq 1920s. Seems like we are repeating that time, when the Brits came in and governed until they got sent home with their heads between their knees, and they were not liked at all.

I like the idea of energy independence through new forms of energy, alternative transportation, and I'm not just talking about autos getting better gas milage. Where are the trains and parking stations? Seems to me the politrickshuns' croanines could still make good money, and we Americans might come out with superior "defensive" weapons, rather than offensive weapons. Notice the news today, regarding another successful in-air SCUD missle defense test in Hawaii? I think if we are going to spend $300billion+ we could have done it without killing so many innocent people, and most of the world would not be hating us right now. The same old fight which has been battled would continued to be battled. There is an old saying something along the lines of, "it is difficult enough to control one's self, much less the lives others." I think we need to get out of world politricks, because we cannot and should not run (ruin) the world.

 

[Teresa]

Uncle Timmy, I knew there was a reason I liked you. I, too, think we can learn much from history. In my opinion, I think the President should have more historians on staff, giving helpful history lessons, before acting.

There is an old saying something along the lines of, "it is difficult enough to control one's self, much less the lives others." I think we need to get out of world politricks, because we cannot and should not run (ruin) the world.

SJ - Uncle Timmy is truly a person with so much knowledge and experience (did you know he lived in the middle east as a child?). I love listening to his stories and have learned much from his discussions.

regarding running world politricks... I get what you are saying - we're just not demonstrating effective leadership in the world at the moment. but I think we could. I think we should. The US has the resources to make a real difference in the lives of people around the globe. and no doubt, we have. but, I think we must work in concert with all nations. never unilaterally.

 

[Bdarg]

6thGen:

I know who the writer is...what is the source/publication--where was it published is the question I asked.

From what I found on the internet, it appears that the oped is more or less self published. No peer-review or anything like that. Basically looks to be a self inflating ad for his business.

What looks to be the original article http://lebanonwire.com/0609MLN/06091301STR.asp

note at the bottom of the article.

"This article is published at Lebanonwire by agreement with www.stratfor.com, the world's leading private intelligence provider. For any questions or comments on this article please write to analysis@stratfor.com "

 

[GoodWitch58]

thank you, bdarg...that's what I suspected. It is telling.

Interesting news tonight: Pentagon Inspector General report establishes
no WMD, and the Administration knew it--no connection between Iraq and Al Queda--and the Administration knew it....and yet, VP Cheney is on Rush with the same old talking points...It is an Illusion that Won't Die! While so many of our men and women and the Iraqi men and women and children are dying!

 

[Smiling JOe]

While so many of our men and women and the Iraqi men and women and children are dying!

...but who cares, as long as the Fed gov't is giving so much money to its friends? Oops, I meant to say as long as the gov't is securing our nation. Makes me really like working from Jan through April for the Fed Gov't.

 

[Bob]

6thGen, Freidman is a conservative Republican, and I'm guessing you don't have Hillary trading cards too. How do you like your democracy spread...smooth or chunky?