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The US War - Five Years On

6thGen avatar
Beach Fanatic
12,409 views
Since the discussion is on-topic, here is an intellectually honest look at the war on terrorism. This is an article I saved from 9/12/06.

The U.S. War, Five Years On
By George Friedman

It has been five years since the Sept. 11 attacks. In thinking about the course of the war against al Qaeda, two facts emerge pre-eminent.

The first is that the war has succeeded far better than anyone would have thought on Sept. 12, 2001. We remember that day clearly, and had anyone told us that there would be no more al Qaeda attacks in the United States for at least five years, we would have been incredulous. Yet there have been no attacks.

The second fact is that the U.S. intervention in the Islamic world has not achieved its operational goals. There are multiple insurgencies under way in Iraq, and the United States does not appear to have sufficient force or strategic intent to suppress them. In Afghanistan, the Taliban has re-emerged as a powerful fighting force. It is possible that the relatively small coalition force -- a force much smaller than that fielded by the defeated Soviets in Afghanistan -- can hold it at bay, but clearly coalition troops cannot annihilate it.

A Strategic Response

The strategic goal of the United States on Sept. 12, 2001, was to prevent any further attacks within the United States. Al Qaeda, defined as the original entity that orchestrated the 1998 attacks against the U.S. embassies in Africa, the USS Cole strike and 9/11, has been thrown into disarray and has been unable to mount a follow-on attack without being detected and disrupted. Other groups, loosely linked to al Qaeda or linked only by name or shared ideology, have carried out attacks, but none have been as daring and successful as 9/11.

In response to 9/11, the United States resorted to direct overt and covert intervention throughout the Islamic world. With the first intervention, in Afghanistan, the United States and coalition forces disrupted al Qaeda's base of operations, destabilized the group and forced it on the defensive. Here also, the stage was set for a long guerrilla war that the United States cannot win with the forces available.

The invasion of Iraq, however incoherent the Bush administration's explanation of it might be, achieved two things. First, it convinced Saudi Arabia of the seriousness of American resolve and caused the Saudis to become much more aggressive in cooperating with U.S. intelligence. Second, it allowed the United States to occupy the most strategic ground in the Middle East -- bordering on Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and Iran. From here, the United States was able to pose overt threats and to stage covert operations against al Qaeda. Yet by invading Iraq, the United States also set the stage for the current military crisis.

The U.S. strategy was to disrupt al Qaeda in three ways:

1. Bring the intelligence services of Muslim states -- through persuasion, intimidation or coercion -- to provide intelligence that was available only to them on al Qaeda's operations.

2. By invading Afghanistan and Iraq, use main force to disrupt al Qaeda and to intimidate and coerce Islamic states. In other words, use Operation 2 to achieve Operation 1.

3. Use the intelligence gained by these methods to conduct a range of covert operations throughout the world, including in the United States itself, to disrupt al Qaeda operations.

The problem, however, was this. The means used to compel cooperation with the intelligence services in countries such as Pakistan or Saudi Arabia involved actions that, while successful in the immediate intent, left U.S. forces exposed on a battleground where the correlation of forces, over time, ceased to favor the United States. In other words, while the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq did achieve their immediate ends and did result in effective action against al Qaeda, the outcome was to expose the U.S. forces to exhausting counterinsurgency that they were not configured to win.

Hindsight: The Search for an Ideal Strategy

The ideal outcome likely would have been to carry out the first and third operations without the second. As many would argue, an acceptable outcome would have been to carry out the Afghanistan operation without going into Iraq. This is the crux of the debate that has been raging since the Iraq invasion and that really began earlier, during the Afghan war, albeit in muted form. On the one side, the argument is that by invading Muslim countries, the United States has played into al Qaeda's hands and actually contributed to radicalization among Islamists -- and that by refraining from invasion, the Americans would have reduced the threat posed by al Qaeda. On the other side, the argument has been made that without these two invasions -- the one for direct tactical reasons, the other for psychological and political reasons -- al Qaeda would be able to operate securely and without effective interference from U.S. intelligence and that, therefore, these invasions were the price to be paid.

There are three models, then, that have been proposed as ideals:

1. The United States should have invaded neither Afghanistan nor Iraq, but instead should have relied entirely on covert measures (with various levels of restraint suggested) to defeat al Qaeda.

2. The United States should have invaded Afghanistan to drive out al Qaeda and disrupt the organization, but should not have invaded Iraq.

3. The United States needed to invade both Iraq and Afghanistan -- the former for strategic reasons and to intimidate key players, the latter to disrupt al Qaeda operations and its home base.

It is interesting to pause and consider that the argument is rarely this clear-cut. Those arguing for Option 1 rarely explain how U.S. covert operations would be carried out, and frequently oppose those operations as well. Those who make the second argument fail to explain how, given that the command cell of al Qaeda had escaped Afghanistan, the United States would continue the war -- or more precisely, where the Americans would get the intelligence to fight a covert war. Those who argue for the third course -- the Bush administration -- rarely explain precisely what the strategic purpose of the war was.

In fact, 9/11 created a logic that drove the U.S. responses. Before any covert war could be launched, al Qaeda's operational structure had to be disrupted -- at the very least, to buy time before another attack. Therefore, an attack in Afghanistan had to come first (and did, commencing about a month after 9/11). Calling this an invasion, of course, would be an error: The United States borrowed forces from Russian and Iranian allies in Afghanistan -- and that, coupled with U.S. air power, forced the Taliban out of the cities to disperse, regroup and restart the war later.

Covert War and a Logical Progression

The problem that the United States had with commencing covert operations against al Qaeda was weakness in its intelligence system. To conduct a covert war, you must have excellent intelligence -- and U.S. intelligence on al Qaeda in the wake of 9/11 was not good enough to sustain a global covert effort. The best intelligence on al Qaeda, simply given the nature of the group as well as its ideology, was in the hands of the Pakistanis and the Saudis. At the very least, Islamic governments were more likely to have accumulated the needed intelligence than the CIA was.

The issue was in motivating these governments to cooperate with the U.S. effort. The Saudis in particular were dubious about U.S. will, given previous decades of behavior. Officials in Riyadh frankly were more worried about al Qaeda's behavior within Saudi Arabia if they collaborated with the Americans than they were about the United States acting resolutely. Recall that the Saudis asked U.S. forces to leave Saudi Arabia after 9/11. Changing the kingdom's attitude was a necessary precursor to waging the covert war, just as Afghanistan was a precursor to changing attitudes in Pakistan.

Invading Iraq was a way for the United States to demonstrate will, while occupying strategic territory to bring further pressure against countries like Syria. It was also a facilitator for a global covert war. The information the Saudis started to provide after the U.S. invasion was critical in disrupting al Qaeda operations. And the Saudis did, in fact, pay the price for collaboration: Al Qaeda rose up against the regime, staging its first attack in the kingdom in May 2003, and was repressed.

In this sense, we can see a logical progression. Invading Afghanistan disrupted al Qaeda operations there and forced Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf to step up cooperation with the United States. Invading Iraq reshaped Saudi thinking and put the United States in a position to pressure neighboring countries. The two moves together increased U.S. intelligence capabilities decisively and allowed it to disrupt al Qaeda.

But it also placed U.S. forces in a strategically difficult position. Any U.S. intervention in Asia, it has long been noted, places the United States at a massive disadvantage. U.S. troops inevitably will be outnumbered. They also will be fighting on an enemy's home turf, far away from everything familiar and comfortable. If forced into a political war, in which the enemy combatants use the local populace to hide themselves -- and if that populace is itself hostile to the Americans -- the results can be extraordinarily unpleasant. Thus, the same strategy that allowed the United States to disrupt al Qaeda also placed U.S. forces in strategically difficult positions in two theaters of operation.

Mission Creep and Crisis

The root problem was that the United States did not crisply define the mission in either Iraq or Afghanistan. Obviously, the immediate purpose was to create an environment in which al Qaeda was disrupted and the intelligence services of Muslim states felt compelled to cooperate with the United States. But by revising the mission upward -- from achieving these goals to providing security to rooting out Baathism and the Taliban, then to providing security against insurgents and even to redefining these two societies as democracies -- the United States overreached. The issue was not whether democracy is desirable; the issue was whether the United States had sufficient forces at hand to reshape Iraqi and Afghan societies in the face of resistance.

If the Americans had not at first expected resistance, they certainly discovered that they were facing it shortly after taking control of the major cities of each country. At that moment, they had to make a basic decision between pursuing the United States' own interests or defining the interest as transforming Afghan and Iraqi society. At the moment Washington chose transformation, it had launched into a task it could not fulfill -- or, if it could fulfill it, would be able to do so only with enormously more force than it placed in either country. When we consider that 300,000 Soviet troops could not subdue Afghanistan, we get a sense of how large a force would have been needed.

The point here is this: The means used by the United States to cripple al Qaeda also created a situation that was inherently dangerous to the United States. Unless the mission had been parsed precisely -- with the United States doing what it needed to do to disrupt al Qaeda but not overreaching itself -- the outcome would be what we see now. It is, of course, easy to say that the United States should have intervened, achieved its goals and left each country in chaos; it is harder to do. Nevertheless, the United States intervened, did not leave the countries and still has chaos. That can be said with hindsight. Acting so callously with foresight is more difficult.

There remains the question of whether the United States could have crippled al Qaeda without invading Iraq -- a move that still would have left Afghanistan in its current state, but which would seem to have been better than the situation now at hand. The answer to that question rests on two elements. First, it is simply not clear that the Saudis' appreciation of the situation, prior to March 2003, would have moved them to cooperate, and extensive diplomacy over the subject prior to the invasion had left the Americans reasonably convinced that the Saudis could do more. Advocates of diplomacy would have to answer the question of what more the United States could have done on that score. Now, perhaps, over time the United States could have developed its own intelligence sources within al Qaeda. But time was exactly what the United States did not have.

But most important, the U.S. leadership underestimated the consequences of an invasion. They set their goals as high as they did because they did not believe that the Iraqis would resist -- and when resistance began, they denied that it involved anything more than the ragtag remnants of the old regime. Their misreading of Iraq was compounded with an extraordinary difficulty in adjusting their thinking as reality unfolded.

But even without the administration's denial, we can see in hindsight that the current crisis was hardwired into the strategy. If the United States wanted to destroy al Qaeda, it had to do things that would suck it into the current situation -- unless it was enormously skilled and nimble, which it certainly was not. In the end, the primary objective -- defending the homeland -- was won at the cost of trying to achieve goals in Iraq and Afghanistan that cannot be achieved.

In the political debate that is raging today in the United States, our view is that both sides are quite wrong. The administration's argument for building democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan misses the point that the United States cannot be successful in this, because it lacks the force to carry out the mission. The administration's critics, who argue that Iraq particularly diverted attention from fighting al Qaeda, fail to appreciate the complex matrix of relationships the United States was trying to adjust with its invasion of Iraq.

The administration is incapable of admitting that it has overreached and led U.S. forces into an impossible position. Its critics fail to understand the intricate connections between the administration's various actions and the failure of al Qaeda to strike inside the United States for five years.

Replies

242
Bdarg avatar
Beach Fanatic
#27
6thGen:

I know who the writer is...what is the source/publication--where was it published is the question I asked.

From what I found on the internet, it appears that the oped is more or less self published. No peer-review or anything like that. Basically looks to be a self inflating ad for his business.

What looks to be the original article http://lebanonwire.com/0609MLN/06091301STR.asp

note at the bottom of the article.

"This article is published at Lebanonwire by agreement with www.stratfor.com, the world's leading private intelligence provider. For any questions or comments on this article please write to analysis@stratfor.com "
Beach Fanatic
#28
thank you, bdarg...that's what I suspected. It is telling.

Interesting news tonight: Pentagon Inspector General report establishes
no WMD, and the Administration knew it--no connection between Iraq and Al Queda--and the Administration knew it....and yet, VP Cheney is on Rush with the same old talking points...It is an Illusion that Won't Die! While so many of our men and women and the Iraqi men and women and children are dying!
Smiling JOe avatar
SoWal Expert
#29
While so many of our men and women and the Iraqi men and women and children are dying!
...but who cares, as long as the Fed gov't is giving so much money to its friends? Oops, I meant to say as long as the gov't is securing our nation. Makes me really like working from Jan through April for the Fed Gov't. :bang:
Bob avatar
SoWal Insider
#30
6thGen, Freidman is a conservative Republican, and I'm guessing you don't have Hillary trading cards too. How do you like your democracy spread...smooth or chunky?
Teresa avatar
SoWal Guide
#31
6thGen, Freidman is a conservative Republican, and I'm guessing you don't have Hillary trading cards too. How do you like your democracy spread...smooth or chunky?[/quote]


I'm guessing democracy spreading isn't part of the agenda in all reality.
Bdarg avatar
Beach Fanatic
#32
6th Gen, I am believe that you have confused ?Intellectually Honesty? with Dr. Friedman being Intellectually Systematic?there is a distinct difference. Dr. Friedman while he is very intellectually systematic looses his intellectual honesty as he nears his conclusion. He paints himself into an intellectual corner and is then forced to ignore much of his premise: much like the administration that we all know and loathe.

I also question his statement that we have not been attacked since 9/11. It appears to me that al Qaeda has attacked us from the safety of their Afgan caves. I have often wondered if al Qaeda is sitting back in those caves laughing its collective butt off as the US spins itself ever deeper into a greater disaster; an attack so devastating that al Qaeda could have never dreamed they could have had such luck, that is the quagmire of Iraq. It has cost not just the blood of our youth, nor just the hundreds of billions of tax dollars pouring out of our nation annually, but the albatross of devastation we call the Iraq war hangs heavily about the US neck and the global loss of credibility that we never thought possible has happened. Al Qaeda has launched a global terrorist attack and their weapon of choice? ?A clumsy, arrogant super power stumbling across the middle east trying to win an unwinnable war.

Our soldiers are the bravest, most well trained, and, hopefully, the best equipped in all the world, but much like a fine, well balance, shotgun on a crisp winter morning, it is not the gun that is does the damage; it is the idiot that mans the trigger. Just ask Harry Whittington.
Teresa avatar
SoWal Guide
#33
brilliantly said bdarg.:clap_1:
Bob avatar
SoWal Insider
#34
6thGen, Freidman is a conservative Republican, and I'm guessing you don't have Hillary trading cards too. How do you like your democracy spread...smooth or chunky?[/quote]


I'm guessing democracy spreading isn't part of the agenda in all reality.
No, it's about the true world currency, not dollars, but oil. I hope we have better choices in the next election cycle! Hopefully, we can look back at this duo and ask "what the heck was that all about"?
Bob avatar
SoWal Insider
#35
Uncle Timmy, After reviewing the last paragraph of your last post,it is with great sadness and regret that I now place you on the "do not invite" list with Toyota, The Jack Daniels Distillery, and the Sierra Club. It is clear you are not for us, so you must be against us, Regards GW
30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#36
It looks like I missed the moveon.org party last night:lol:
Teresa avatar
SoWal Guide
#37
Uncle Timmy, After reviewing the last paragraph of your last post,it is with great sadness and regret that I now place you on the "do not invite" list with Toyota, The Jack Daniels Distillery, and the Sierra Club. It is clear you are not for us, so you must be against us, Regards GW

:clap_1: yay Uncle Timm-eh!
Cil avatar
Beach Fanatic
#38
Pentagon Dismisses Saddam, Al Quaida Link
snippet from article:
...However, a declassified Pentagon report released Thursday said that interrogations of the deposed Iraqi leader and two of his former aides as well as seized Iraqi documents confirmed that the terrorist organization and the Saddam government were not working together before the invasion.
I have often wondered if al Qaeda is sitting back in those caves laughing its collective butt off as the US spins itself ever deeper into a greater disaster; an attack so devastating that al Qaeda could have never dreamed they could have had such luck, that is the quagmire of Iraq. It has cost not just the blood of our youth, nor just the hundreds of billions of tax dollars pouring out of our nation annually, but the albatross of devastation we call the Iraq war hangs heavily about the US neck and the global loss of credibility that we never thought possible has happened.
Yup.
There are interested parties in the Middle East who like to see us mucking about over there, creating an enemy to rally the tribes against. We are sort of a prop in a pre-existing conflict between modernity and the old ways.
Iraq has almost become a training ground.
By sending our troops, we are sparing them travel expenses.
Mango avatar
SoWal Insider
#39
Pentagon Dismisses Saddam, Al Quaida Link
snippet from article:
...However, a declassified Pentagon report released Thursday said that interrogations of the deposed Iraqi leader and two of his former aides as well as seized Iraqi documents confirmed that the terrorist organization and the Saddam government were not working together before the invasion.

Yup.
There are interested parties in the Middle East who like to see us mucking about over there, creating an enemy to rally the tribes against. We are sort of a prop in a pre-existing conflict between modernity and the old ways.
Iraq has almost become a training ground.
By sending our troops, we are sparing them travel expenses.

There has never been any substantial link between Bin laden and Hussein.

We've been sparing interested Middle East parties much more than travel expenses, they won the megamillions now with us in Iraq, after already winning the Lotto with relations with our country.

Friedmans article states the admin didn't have sufficient knowledge regarding Al-Qaeda. The GW admin had knowledge, just didn't pay any attention to it prior to 9/11. Our government knew back in the mid 1990's that Al-Qaeda was interested in using airplanes as weapons targeting the The White House and various Federal Buildings. At the 9/11 hearings, many questions went unanswered, like the CIA's knowledge of 2 of the highjackers in the US and lack of surveillance.

Although I agree in part with with UT regarding energy supplies being a priority so that we can extricate ourselves from the Middle East, (the main cause for such dissention is our involvement to protect our energy interests)

I am sure that the victims families of 9/11, would agree that we should have taken our national security more seriously pre-9/11, and should continue to do so, since there will always be some political turmoil somewhere in the future where the US will most likely intervene, and we won;t be able to to totally eradicate Al-Qaeda and other emerging terrorist groups. They are not going to easily forget what we have done, regardless of whether we pulled out of Iraq tomorrow.

Edited

Bob avatar
SoWal Insider
#40
It looks like I missed the moveon.org party last night:lol:
No moveon.org party here. Just a republican that doesn't want to drive so far right they're in the emergency lane.
30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#41
No moveon.org party here. Just a republican that doesn't want to drive so far right they're in the emergency lane.

:razz: :razz: :razz: :razz: :razz:
Bob avatar
SoWal Insider
#42
That's The St. Paul/ Traveler's Group ad.
organicmama avatar
Beach Fanatic
#43
Forget that the United States Constitution was sent through the shredder in seeking out terrorists.

I seem to recall seeing previews for a movie starring Tom Cruise, where potential crimes were being stopped by the law long before they were even planned out by the criminals, based on what might happen in the future. I for one, will give up security in the name of freedom! Any security which we are being provided is false security at best, and we are losing our freedoms daily because of the politrickshuns. I smell dirty diapers...

It's called "Minority Report." The technology used to infiltrate any location, for the sake of security, is pretty scary, especially in regards to the false idea of national security we have presently. Per usual, the mastermind behind the whole idea of "pre-crime," used the technology to cover up his own murderous transgressions. Film noir tends to scarily demonstrate reality sometimes.

Got it, if you want to depress yourself by watching it.
Cil avatar
Beach Fanatic
#44
There has never been any substantial link between Bin laden and Hussein.
Of course not.
Unfortunately, Cheney and others murkily but effectively presented, over and over again, the idea that there might be. On television shows, during speeches (remember the "Mission Accomplished" speech) the threatening idea of Osama was continuously, if nebulously suggested.
And many American people trusted them--and still do. :eek:
. They are not going to easily forget what we have done, regardless of whether we pulled out of Iraq tomorrow.
And here we are with our troops strained to the breaking point.
Jdarg avatar
SoWal Expert
#45
It looks like I missed the moveon.org party last night:lol:


C'mon over the funn side, Skunkster.;-)
Mango avatar
SoWal Insider
#46
Of course not.
Unfortunately, Cheney and others murkily but effectively presented, over and over again, the idea that there might be. On television shows, during speeches (remember the "Mission Accomplished" speech) the threatening idea of Osama was continuously, if nebulously suggested.
And many American people trusted them--and still do. :eek:

And here we are with our troops strained to the breaking point.

Right Cil. It is very scary that some Americans believe everything reported to them at face value. For all we know, Cheney and his cronies could have very well planted all the evidence that they gave Powell to review. The GW admin treated Powell like a second class citizen.

On a lighter note, when I was 22 yrs old, I walked 3 blocks with Colin Powell chatting, and it didn't dawn on me who he was until later since he was dressed in civilian clothing. :lol:
30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#47
C'mon over the funn side, Skunkster.;-)

Hopefully the SOWAL franchise can get along better than these peacenicks:funn:

Crawford Peace House Hit by Strife
By ANGELA K. BROWN, Associated Press Writer

Saturday, April 7, 2007


(04-07) 10:28 PDT Crawford, Texas (AP) --


With allegations of money mismanagement, threats of court action and some members leaving, a group that has sponsored war protests in President Bush's adopted hometown has been anything but peaceful.


The Crawford Peace House recently lost its corporate charter with the state, and a former member who now has rights to the name is threatening legal action because the group continues operating.


Sara L. Oliver and some others are calling for a state investigation as to why only $14,700 is now in its bank account, saying tens of thousands donated during Cindy Sheehan's 2005 war protest are unaccounted for.


"There are people who have said, `Don't say anything because you'll hurt the peace movement,'" Oliver said. "But if the peace movement isn't pure and transparent and holy as it can be at its heart, then it's just like George Bush: lying, thieving, conniving, backstabbing bastards."


John Wolf, who co-founded the Crawford Peace House in 2003 in a two-bedroom, one-bathroom white-clapboard house just across the railroad tracks from downtown, denied allegations of wrongdoing. He said the claims were by only a few people and would not hurt the work of the Crawford Peace House, which is planning a fourth anniversary celebration Sunday.


He said the Peace House has an accountant and has kept diligent records, which soon will be posted in its Web site. He said most of the $285,000 raised in 2005 was spent on food, van and bus rentals, gas and a large tent for the rallies at several events.


"All of this money was given to us to take care of people who came here, and that's what we did," Wolf said Friday. "If somebody has fantasies, I can't affect that."


The Crawford Peace House bank account had only $3 in early August 2005, but Sheehan's monthlong vigil in ditches off the road leading to Bush's ranch brought thousands of people and donations from across the country. Because the rural campsite was small, most protesters spent much of their time at the Peace House, which also became headquarters for Sheehan, whose son died in Iraq in 2004.


Wolf said he plans to turn in the franchise tax report next week ? nearly a year late ? to the Texas Comptroller's Office to regain the Peace House's corporate charter. The report was not filed sooner because the house's volunteer director was overwhelmed with other tasks and was confused about whether the paperwork had to be filed if no taxes were owed, he said.


Losing a corporate charter means the board members themselves are liable for any debts the entity might owe, the comptroller's office said.


Wolf said the Texas Secretary of State's Office made a mistake last month in allowing Oliver to file documents forming a nonprofit corporation called the Crawford Peace House.


Wolf said the Crawford Peace House that he co-founded still exists as an unincorporated entity, as well as a religious group, so Oliver is violating state statutes that prevent an organization from having the same or similar name as an existing one.


The Secretary of State's Office was closed Friday for the Easter holiday and no one could be reached for comment.


Wolf said the Peace House also was applying to become a 501(c)3 nonprofit organization.


Oliver, who said she left the group in 2005 after encountering hostility when she tried to help secure grants for it, said she doesn't want to form a counter group. But she said she would allow some current members to use the name, as long as the house director and leaders account for the money and resign.


Sandra Row, another former member, said up to 75 people have left the peace group over concerns about financial issues or hurt feelings. She said in the summer of 2005, she saw buckets of cash donations in the Peace House ? some of which went to pay veterinarian bills for the cat living there. But some demonstrators who bought tents, lanterns and other supplies never got reimbursed, she said.


"You'll never know how much money there is because the cash is gone," Row said.


Wolf said he was not there every day but that the Peace House had receipts for all expenses.


Sheehan, whose name is listed on the 2005 franchise tax report as a Crawford Peace House board member, said Friday that she has never been consulted about its financial matters and knew nothing about the current situation.


Sheehan said the matter would not hurt the peace movement or the weekend's activities coinciding with Bush's weekend ranch visit.


About 50 protesters went to Sheehan's original campsite Friday afternoon and then marched about a mile down the winding, two-lane road to demonstrate in a ditch across from the roadblock set up when Bush is at his ranch.


"We do this to save other people's children, so they won't have to go through what we did," Sheehan said.
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#48
Bloody hell. I head out of town for a day and this erupts. I feel like the first time NYC tourist talking to the crazy people who are usually talking to themselves on the subway. And the way you all create and change my arguments, you might as well be talking to yourselves. I guess I can't blame you since you are so happy to have someone respond at all. I'm headed out for cocktails, dinner and cocktails. You all keep high fiving each other like you do at the frisbee golf tournaments and love-ins and I'll try to get around to decimating your moonbat arguments after Easter.
Teresa avatar
SoWal Guide
#49
Bloody hell. I head out of town for a day and this erupts. I feel like the first time NYC tourist talking to the crazy people who are usually talking to themselves on the subway. And the way you all create and change my arguments, you might as well be talking to yourselves. I guess I can't blame you since you are so happy to have someone respond at all. I'm headed out for cocktails, dinner and cocktails. You all keep high fiving each other like you do at the frisbee golf tournaments and love-ins and I'll try to get around to decimating your moonbat arguments after Easter.
:lol:
jolly good 6gen (golf clap). happy easter.:biggrin:
Beach Comber
#50
"I'm headed out for cocktails, dinner and cocktails."

Honestly, it sounds as though you need a few.

"You all keep high fiving each other like you do at the frisbee golf tournaments and love-ins and I'll try to get around to decimating your moonbat arguments after Easter."

And what would be so wrong with frisbee golf and love-ins? Never tried either, not my cup of tea, but I don't feel the need to poo poo on others enjoyment to make myself feel high and mighty.

Geeeez have you ever relaxed and had fun? Life is hard enough without a sense of humor. You should try it sometime. Don't take message boards so seriously, they are just message boards! No need to have a stroke over a political debate or discussion.

Now 6thGen BREATHHHHHHHHE deeply and learn to relax some!

Have a great Easter!
Chickpea avatar
Beach Fanatic
#51
There has never been any substantial link between Bin laden and Hussein.

We've been sparing interested Middle East parties much more than travel expenses, they won the megamillions now with us in Iraq, after already winning the Lotto with relations with our country.

Friedmans article states the admin didn't have sufficient knowledge regarding Al-Qaeda. The GW admin had knowledge, just didn't pay any attention to it prior to 9/11. Our government knew back in the mid 1990's that Al-Qaeda was interested in using airplanes as weapons targeting the The White House and various Federal Buildings. At the 9/11 hearings, many questions went unanswered, like the CIA's knowledge of 2 of the highjackers in the US and lack of surveillance.

Although I agree in part with with UT regarding energy supplies being a priority so that we can extricate ourselves from the Middle East, (the main cause for such dissention is our involvement to protect our energy interests)

I am sure that the victims families of 9/11, would agree that we should have taken our national security more seriously pre-9/11, and should continue to do so, since there will always be some political turmoil somewhere in the future where the US will most likely intervene, and we won;t be able to to totally eradicate Al-Qaeda and other emerging terrorist groups. They are not going to easily forget what we have done, regardless of whether we pulled out of Iraq tomorrow.

Mango,

You and Uncle Timmy and others are absolutely right about pre-war intelligence.

I want to absolutely SCREAM when I hear or read people say that hindsight is 50-50 and so much of the chaos there reigns there now could NOT have been anticipated - well, exxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxcuse me - there were PLENTY of people who predicted that this war would bring about escalation in violence, have possibility of destabilizing oil market and actually make us all less safe (so much for so called war on terrorism!) but all those reports were squashed, ignored and edited!

Thanks and Happy Easter!

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