• Trouble logging in? Send us a message with your username and/or email address for help.
New posts

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
That is a trivial excuse for Bush?s actions.

We can label the Klan WASPfascism by your definition.

I think most people can see that the intent here was to invoke the struggle against Nazism and justify a ?war? out of all proportion to the threat.

I'm not a student on the Klan, regardless of what another member says here, but I'm pretty sure they never stated that everything is subordinate to the will of the state. However, those on the left should be the last to criticize one for invoking fascism or Nazism to strike fear about one's opponent. You can argue proportion of the threat, but you cannot argue that the ideology does not exist, that there isn't a threat, or that the definition does not fit.
 

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
Islamic law was written back when there wasn't a difference between church and state........theocracy......just like European kings used to have a divine right to rule and Queen Elizabeth is technically the head of the Church of England.

OK, so are you arguing that such is wrong or that militant Islam doesn't subscribe to the separation?

This definition of fascism is pretty broad .......... depending on your interpretation, I am currently living in the fascist state of America w/ Christians dictating my medical care and values.

No, you aren't. If you want to be taken seriously, I'd suggest at least hitting the dartboard.
 

scooterbug44

SoWal Expert
May 8, 2007
16,706
3,339
Sowal
Laws and policies on homosexuality, abortion, birth control, stem cell research, censorship of public school curriculums when they disagree w/ creation ......... so much for separation of church and state!
 

Mango

SoWal Insider
Apr 7, 2006
9,699
1,368
New York/ Santa Rosa Beach
Islamofascism is a word designed by Bushco to promote its agenda and divert attention from reality which is Bushfascism - the worship of the Corporation and power of the State.
 

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
Laws and policies on homosexuality, abortion, birth control, stem cell research, censorship of public school curriculums when they disagree w/ creation ......... so much for separation of church and state!

So homosexuality, abortion, birth control, stem cell research and the teaching of evolution are against the law? Damn, we are in trouble. Which laws are you talking about because I want to march too?
 

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
Islamofascism is a word designed by Bushco to promote its agenda and divert attention from reality which is Bushfascism - the worship of the Corporation and power of the State.

Um, ok, based on what I posted, how is the term used out of context? Do I need to remind you to keep the conspiracy theories to a minimum? Like me being a government plant?
 

Uncle Timmy

Beach Fanatic
Nov 15, 2004
1,013
32
Blue Mountain Beach
I'm not a student on the Klan, regardless of what another member says here, but I'm pretty sure they never stated that everything is subordinate to the will of the state. However, those on the left should be the last to criticize one for invoking fascism or Nazism to strike fear about one's opponent. You can argue proportion of the threat, but you cannot argue that the ideology does not exist, that there isn't a threat, or that the definition does not fit.

That is precisely the reason why your attempt to justify Islamofascism is flawed. There is no adherence to state authority. I said by your definition, the Klan would be considered WASPfascism. I didn?t say this was the correct term to describe the KKK.

There are many *isms or political terms which may be used to more accurately define AlQaeda?s philosophy and my original point, that Bush intentionally used fascism as a way to distort the threat, is valid.

As for the left being the last to criticize the use of fascism or Nazism to invoke fear about one?s opponent; -what ever happened to the politics of reason? Distorting reality is of no benefit to our society, left or right. Whipping up ?fear? or anger is not an appropriate move within a democratic society.

If a threat to our society is real, than a rational response to that threat is all that is required ?minus the cheap political fear or anger mongering.
 

Uncle Timmy

Beach Fanatic
Nov 15, 2004
1,013
32
Blue Mountain Beach
Laws and policies on homosexuality, abortion, birth control, stem cell research, censorship of public school curriculums when they disagree w/ creation ......... so much for separation of church and state!

Oh don?t get me started!

I believe that part of the motivation for Bush?s actions can be attributed to the influence that the extreme religious right has in his administration.

An article from the Christian Science Monitor:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0317/p01s01-uspo.html

Now, some critics are wondering whether the influence of Bush's evangelical faith goes beyond public rhetoric to shape his foreign policy regarding Iraq and the Middle East.

Part of Restoring America?s Leadership will need to be a return to the rule of law and our core democratic values, and the diminishment of the influence if extreme right religious groups.
 

Mango

SoWal Insider
Apr 7, 2006
9,699
1,368
New York/ Santa Rosa Beach
Um, ok, based on what I posted, how is the term used out of context? Do I need to remind you to keep the conspiracy theories to a minimum? Like me being a government plant?

The Trouble with Bush's 'Islamofascism'


If you control the language, you control the debate. As the Bush Administration's Middle Eastern policy sinks ever deeper into bloody incoherence, the "war on terror" has been getting a quiet linguistic makeover. It's becoming the "war on Islamic fascism." The term has been around for a while -- Nexis takes it back to 1990, when the writer and historian Malise Ruthven used "Islamo-fascism" in the London Independent to describe the authoritarian governments of the Muslim world; after 9/11 it was picked up by neocons and prowar pundits, including Stephen Schwartz in the Spectator and Christopher Hitchens in this magazine, to describe a broad swath of Muslim bad guys from Osama to the mullahs of Iran. But the term moved into the mainstream this August when Bush referred to the recently thwarted Britain-based suicide attack plot on airplanes as "a stark reminder that this nation is at war with Islamic fascists." Joe Lieberman compares Iraq to "the Spanish Civil War, which was the harbinger of what was to come." The move away from "war on terrorism" arrives not a moment too soon for language fussbudgets who had problems with the idea of making war on a tactic. To say nothing of those who wondered why, if terrorism was the problem, invading Iraq was the solution. (From the President's August 21 press conference: Q: "But what did Iraq have to do with September 11?" A: "Nothing." Now he tells us!)
What's wrong with "Islamo-fascism"? For starters, it's a terrible historical analogy. Italian Fascism, German Nazism and other European fascist movements of the 1920s and '30s were nationalist and secular, closely allied with international capital and aimed at creating powerful, up-to-date, all-encompassing states. Some of the trappings might have been anti-modernist -- Mussolini looked back to ancient Rome, the Nazis were fascinated by Nordic mythology and other Wagnerian folderol -- but the basic thrust was modern, bureaucratic and rational. You wouldn't find a fascist leader consulting the Bible to figure out how to organize the banking system or the penal code or the women's fashion industry. Even its anti-Semitism was "scientific": The problem was the Jews' genetic inferiority and otherness, which countless biologists, anthropologists and medical researchers were called upon to prove -- not that the Jews killed Christ and refused to accept the true faith.
Call me pedantic, but if only to remind us that the worst barbarities of the modern era were committed by the most modern people, I think it is worth preserving "fascism" as a term with specific historical content.
Second, and more important, "Islamo-fascism" conflates a wide variety of disparate states, movements and organizations as if, like the fascists, they all want similar things and are working together to achieve them. Neocons have called Saddam Hussein and the Baathists of Syria Islamo-fascists, but these relatively secular nationalist tyrants have nothing in common with shadowy, stateless, fundamentalist Al Qaeda -- as even Bush now acknowledges -- or with the Taliban, who want to return Afghanistan to the seventh century; and the Taliban aren't much like Iran, which is different from (and somewhat less repressive than) Saudi Arabia -- whoops, our big ally in the Middle East! Who are the "Islamo-fascists" in Saudi Arabia -- the current regime or its religious-fanatical opponents? It was under the actually existing US-supported government that female students were forced back into their burning school rather than be allowed to escape unveiled. Under that government people are lashed and beheaded, women can't vote or drive, non-Muslim worship is forbidden, a religious dress code is enforced by the state through violence and Wahhabism -- the "Islamo-fascist" denomination--is exported around the globe
"Islamo-fascism" looks like an analytic term, but really it's an emotional one, intended to get us to think less and fear more. It presents the bewildering politics of the Muslim world as a simple matter of Us versus Them, with war to the end the only answer, as with Hitler. If you doubt that every other British Muslim under the age of 30 is ready to blow himself up for Allah, or that shredding the Constitution is the way to protect ourselves from suicide bombers, if you think that Hamas might be less popular if Palestinians were less miserable, you get cast as Neville Chamberlain, while Bush plays FDR. "Islamo-fascism" rescues the neocons from harsh verdicts on the invasion of Iraq ("cakewalk... roses... sweetmeats... Chalabi") by reframing that ongoing debacle as a minor chapter in a much larger story of evil madmen who want to fly the green flag of Islam over the capitals of the West. Suddenly it's just a detail that Saddam wasn't connected with 9/11, had no WMDs, was not poised to attack the United States or Israel -- he hated freedom, and that was enough. It doesn't matter, either, that Iraqi Sunnis and Shiites seem less interested in uniting the umma than in murdering one another. With luck we'll be so scared we won't ask why anyone should listen to another word from people who were spectacularly wrong about the biggest politico-military initiative of the past thirty years, and their balding heads will continue to glow on our TV screens for many nights to come. On to Tehran!
It remains to be seen if "Islamo-fascism" will win back the socially liberal "security moms" who voted for Bush in 2004 but have recently been moving toward the Democrats. But the word is already getting a big reaction in the Muslim world. As I write the New York Times is carrying a full page "open letter" to Bush from the Al Kharafi Group, the mammoth Kuwaiti construction company, featuring photos of dead and wounded Lebanese civilians. "We think there is a misunderstanding in determining: "'Who deserves to be accused of being a fascist'!!!!"
"Islamo-fascism" enrages to no purpose the dwindling number of Muslims who don't already hate us. At the same time, it clouds with ideology a range of situations -- Lebanon, Palestine, airplane and subway bombings, Afghanistan, Iraq -- we need to see clearly and distinctly and deal with in a focused way. No wonder the people who brought us the disaster in Iraq are so fond of it.
 

Uncle Timmy

Beach Fanatic
Nov 15, 2004
1,013
32
Blue Mountain Beach
Excellent post Mango, I think that pretty much wraps up the Islamofascist debate.
 
New posts


Sign Up for SoWal Newsletter